New Seas tweeters tested

DearSX

Member
2005-07-29 1:11 am
RI
cool, I'm happy to know how does work. although the $5 ones interests me as much as the other ones. $20 MT, here I come.

thanks for sharing.

do you happen to know any cheap mids ($5-10) that can match. I was thinking about putting my money towards a behninger EQ/crossover. and getting better sound out of these.
 
soongsc said:
Why does the web site refer to seas 27TBxxx as the best in the group?

Yes I'm very interested in this too - I've been meaning to post about this for awhile. This is a $30.00 tweeter, and John prefers it to the Millenium, at over four times the cost - so I'd rather save my money!

So, does anyone (John, please feel free to chime in here) have experience with both of these tweeters, and have you come to similar conclusions as John's? I've always used soft dome tweets but I'll make the jump to metal in a heartbeat if there's a good consensus out there about this particular line of SEAS.

Sidebar - SL uses the Mil in the Orion - maybe only because of the lower x-over point? I wonder if he would use something else if there was a more "conventional" x-over point - but this would change the design of the Orion considerably, maybe to a four-way, which he, and most of us, would never do!
 

dbdell

Member
2005-08-03 2:42 pm
ShinOBIWAN said:
I believe that John bases his opinion on value rather than outright performance.


Hi Interesting...
what mids would you recomend to go with the seas recomended im still attached to t33s have several pairs but realise there are better alternatives but find they do offer me a good reference point to tinkerings but they must go for a slightly more modern replacement (even though my ears are no more modern) im setting up a 7.1 all amps and spks built myself am using audax htmo i think pretty good but not a good mathch to my fronts which have jmlabs6.5polykevlars very bright!!!(again good for testing) but am looking fo a more relaxed ambience less clinical but with all information (sorry dont meen to drone on).
you are in England so few on this site it seems .. Where do you source your drivers???
I hear people mention your cost preference which i like especially when you design with a view to commercial development as this has a massive effect on rrp.
Thanks dbDell.................................;)
 
soongsc said:
Why does the web site refer to seas 27TBxxx as the best in the group?

ShinOBIWAN said:
I believe that John bases his opinion on value rather than outright performance.

Simply put, because it *is* the best in the group, even regardless of cost. If the Millennium only cost $30, I'd still buy the 27TBFCG. Of course the build quality of the Millennium is excellent. I love the thick metal frame. But the 27TBFCG sounds and measures better. So does the 27TDFC and several other tweeters for that matter.

Sorry guys, no Crescendo measurements. $500/pr for tweeters is a little too rich for my blood. Well, I could afford it but I just feel like there's better things to do with that much money. If the Crescendo uses the same motor as the Millennium, there's pretty much no hope for it to be a major improvement. These days, high end means copper shorting rings and machined internals for low air restriction through the pole piece. The Millennium has none of that.

sdclc126 said:

So, does anyone (John, please feel free to chime in here) have experience with both of these tweeters, and have you come to similar conclusions as John's? I've always used soft dome tweets but I'll make the jump to metal in a heartbeat if there's a good consensus out there about this particular line of SEAS.

You might want to check Mark K's pages, He tested all of these. I know he compared the Millennium to the 27TDFC, and found the 27TDFC to be better. Generally, my results agree with Mark's.

Mark K's Millennium tests
Mark K's 27TBFCG tests

Yes, SL did use the Millennium in the Orions, but be aware that design is now pretty old. The Millenniums may have been the best thing available back when the Orion came out.
 

DearSX

Member
2005-07-29 1:11 am
RI
zaph....please tell me...do you think the silver flute 5" and Dayton nd20 can work well together? I was thinking perhaps they can mate well together, crossed over at 3600hz. not sure if the silver flute has energy storage or distortion at the frequency. or other issues.
 

tktran

Disabled Account
2003-03-17 4:30 am
Perth
kram0.com
Thanks for the interesting tests John.

For the D26NC55, I wonder what the spectrum of non-linear distortion would look like? Does your testing equipment allow you to illustrate this, Mark K style?

This would make a fantastic tweeter for a mini-monitor when space is a premium.

I do believe ProAc use this unit (or slight derivative) with a 4.5" midbass unit, in the Hexa satellite for US$1,100 a pair.
http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/hexasat.php
 
DearSX said:
zaph....please tell me...do you think the silver flute 5" and Dayton nd20 can work well together? I was thinking perhaps they can mate well together, crossed over at 3600hz. not sure if the silver flute has energy storage or distortion at the frequency. or other issues.

I don't think so. The SF 5" needs a tweeter that can work a lot lower. In fact, the SF-Vifa design on my web site crosses over at 2500hz. In hindsight, I think even that is too high, because back then I doubted the low frequency ability of the D27. That design is due for an update with a different crossover. If you really want to use the little Dayton, a 4" poly or coated paper cone might be a good match.

tktran said:
For the D26NC55, I wonder what the spectrum of non-linear distortion would look like? Does your testing equipment allow you to illustrate this, Mark K style?

This would make a fantastic tweeter for a mini-monitor when space is a premium.

I do believe ProAc use this unit (or slight derivative) with a 4.5" midbass unit, in the Hexa satellite for US$1,100 a pair.
http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/hexasat.php

Yup, that's definitely the D26NC55 in that Hexasat system. The woofer looks like some sort of Seas TPX cone. $1100 for that seems a little steep. Are you sure that's not in down under dollars or something? :)

I do spectrum and multitone IMD sweeps on all my tweeters right after I do the HD sweeps, but I don't publish that data to avoid information overload. Doing it Mark K style would require another 8 images per tweeter. My web server would probably start on fire.

I use an external multitone generator sweep and a spectrum analyzer and just watch IMD track through, but there's no easy way to consolodate that info into one screen like I do with my HD sweeps.

I do find that the performance shown on the HD sweeps I publish is closely related to spectrum performance. A F4 and F5 that are relatively high generally points to higher harmonics also being high. While my HD sweeps are running and tracking F2 through F5, I get to see high order stuff too even though it doesn't show up on the final plot.

For example, here's a defective Dayton RS28 with a rubbing voice coil. For this, I didn't need to see the spectrum to know there was something wrong with it, but it certainly shows what I heard! :eek:
 

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DearSX

Member
2005-07-29 1:11 am
RI
thanks for the response, zaph. I see. I dont have any other plans for the tweeter, especially since I dont have measurements for other small drivers. oh well. the ones you posted look good. and if and when you update the SF. I'll take a look at that.... thank you.

also zaph. seeing as how you priorities budgets, I bet you've given thoughts to Dayton RS mid, resonable low budget speakers. any such plans?
 

tktran

Disabled Account
2003-03-17 4:30 am
Perth
kram0.com
I too have the 27TBFCG (and 9500) in my permanent setups.

It's interesting because at the core of it, low non-linear distortion means that the tweeter will output less harmonics and other extraneous sounds that were not present in the input signal.
This sheds some light on the never-ending objective vs subjective schools of thought: A tweeter that measures well because it has VERY LOW non-linear distortion could easily be perceived as less detailed, airy, sweet or magical etc. A tweeter that measures well on linear distortion may have less brilliance, or shimmer.

Perhaps driver engineers have sussed it out that people DO like a little bit of distortion. Things like the OW1 and Millenium are reputedly awesome sounding tweeters. Even though their non-linear distortion spectrum is nothing to write home about. Is this the extra detail, air, magic, sweetness that audiophiles talk about? And even if it was, is there anything "wrong" with this. At the end of the day we all have to put away our measuring equipment and listen with our ears.

IMO, if a speaker can evoke an emotive experience, it can certainly command top dollar.

So there's a good chance the SEAS' Cresecendo or the other uber expensive tweeter- SS Ring Dome/Radiator don't measure so well. SEAS may even decide to leave out distortion killer techniques like copper sleeves or improved chamber, if it's going to reduce the amount of "extra details" one hears.

And now, to really throw a spanner into the works-
http://www.gedlee.com/distortion_perception.htm

I'm starting to ramble. Perhaps it's time to get a blog...
 

soongsc

Member
2005-03-26 2:31 pm
Taiwan
Zaph said:




Simply put, because it *is* the best in the group, even regardless of cost. If the Millennium only cost $30, I'd still buy the 27TBFCG. Of course the build quality of the Millennium is excellent. I love the thick metal frame. But the 27TBFCG sounds and measures better. So does the 27TDFC and several other tweeters for that matter.

Sorry guys, no Crescendo measurements. $500/pr for tweeters is a little too rich for my blood. Well, I could afford it but I just feel like there's better things to do with that much money. If the Crescendo uses the same motor as the Millennium, there's pretty much no hope for it to be a major improvement. These days, high end means copper shorting rings and machined internals for low air restriction through the pole piece. The Millennium has none of that.



You might want to check Mark K's pages, He tested all of these. I know he compared the Millennium to the 27TDFC, and found the 27TDFC to be better. Generally, my results agree with Mark's.

Mark K's Millennium tests
Mark K's 27TBFCG tests

Yes, SL did use the Millennium in the Orions, but be aware that design is now pretty old. The Millenniums may have been the best thing available back when the Orion came out.

Then why do you say the Vifa D26NC55 is the best in the group, that's where I was confused.
:confused:
 
BobEllis said:
Thank you for your data, John. Do you have any plans to test some of the (relatively) inexpensive ribbon tweeters?

Sooner or later I'm sure I'll get to some ribbon tweeters. I litterally haven't used one in ten years, probably because I'm a little afraid. The last ones I had were both fried at the same time with a minor amplifier accident. Ribbons are so delicate, that if you breath on them wrong, they may stop working. (seriously - wind can damage a ribbon)

When I do test one, I think I may need to update my test routine a little bit. From what I've seen so far, ribbons don't test as well with traditional tests yet they are known to sound excellent. All this can mean is that traditional measurements may not accurately describe the performance of a ribbon. The right tests have to be done. It's something I'd really have to look into.

DearSX said:

also zaph. seeing as how you priorities budgets, I bet you've given thoughts to Dayton RS mid, resonable low budget speakers. any such plans?

The RS series sound excellent and are a great value. There are already a ton of designs out there for them, so there's no need for me to reinvent the wheel. If I do use one, it will likely be the RS125, 4 per side in an MMTMM. I'm torn between that and the Aura NS3 3".

tktran said:
Perhaps driver engineers have sussed it out that people DO like a little bit of distortion. Things like the OW1 and Millenium are reputedly awesome sounding tweeters. Even though their non-linear distortion spectrum is nothing to write home about. Is this the extra detail, air, magic, sweetness that audiophiles talk about? And even if it was, is there anything "wrong" with this. At the end of the day we all have to put away our measuring equipment and listen with our ears.

To me, drivers with more distortion sometimes sound more "exciting and fun" initially. This can comparitively make a low distortion system sound a little dull and flat with immediate A-B tests. Usually over time, "Exciting and fun" slowly turns into fatigue and I end up going back to the lower distortion system.

I tend to push aside typical audiophile verbage and look for more objective descriptions of what I am hearing. Sweetness and magic are not in my vocabulary. :)

soongsc said:
Then why do you say the Vifa D26NC55 is the best in the group, that's where I was confused.
:confused:

Oops, what I meant was that the D26NC55 was the best in the recent group of 4 just added. And even calling it the best, is not too accurate, it depends on the type usage required. But I can say it was the biggest surprise of the group. I didn't expect it to perform so well.

Overall, in the whole group of 16 tweeters, I still consider the 27TBFCG to be the best.