I've been on discussion forums related to different hobbies for over 2 decades that I can remember, in that time almost every one of them had a site upgrade to a different forum software. And every time a few people freaked out. After a couple of months, nobody even remembered what the old version looked like. Despite gnashing of teeth from users, it was always declared that the upgrades were critically necessary to prevent the end of the internet as we know it - or something along those lines.
Just roll with it, it'll happen again here or at some other website you visit or else the internet as we know it will surely evaporate into the ether.
Just roll with it, it'll happen again here or at some other website you visit or else the internet as we know it will surely evaporate into the ether.
Just found this thread 😉
On the plus side the forum will be up, and not down, and that's the thing to keep in mind.
All the answers are well stated in the main thread though if you'd like to understand though, and I'm happy to go deeper on any specific questions you might have.
Pretty much. If we didn't change anything you'd get used to it. But we are, for all the reasons stated and restated in the main "Feedback wanted" thread. Just chill. It's Christmas, and a lot of aesthetic things won't change a lot before the end of January following an aesthetic review once the development team is back at work.
On the plus side the forum will be up, and not down, and that's the thing to keep in mind.
Being a layperson is the key here. All technologies sufficiently advanced will appear to the layperson indistinguishable from magic.
All the answers are well stated in the main thread though if you'd like to understand though, and I'm happy to go deeper on any specific questions you might have.
Jason,
I think your team has done a fantastic job. Sure, some things are different, but I've already gotten used to them.
Plus, I make a point not to complain too much about free stuff. 🙂
Thanks for all your hard work.
I think your team has done a fantastic job. Sure, some things are different, but I've already gotten used to them.
Plus, I make a point not to complain too much about free stuff. 🙂
Thanks for all your hard work.
When it comes to software, upgrading may not always for the better sometimes. For example, when you buy a new Corvette, it has more power, better handling and so on. I learned that it is not always the same with software.
There are many reasons that old software cannot be continued on indefinitely, maybe Jason can list a few
that are relevant here..
I understand sometimes the reason for upgrading a piece of software has to do with logistic such as compatibility, better maintenance and so on.
I'm glad I found this thread because I was also mostly just ignoring the forum after the upgrade. Going to "classic" mode changed everything back except the colors and that I can live with. A lot of the forums I'm on use the same software so I should have known there were options.
There's a lot that could be written.
Rather than write 10,000 words on the history of vBulletin, its developers, Internet Brands who bought it, what happened to those developers, where IB took the software, the history of the plugins we used, the fact that vB 3.9 is IB-only... and I could go on and on with little bits and bobs that each could be turned into a chapter in a book.
The short and punchy lay-person friendly version is:
If there is a particular facet you'd like me to go into more detail (and no doubt I've missed the wood for the tress here as I tried to avoid going down rabbit holes), let me know. I'm happy to explain or go into detail on anything you'd like more information about.
The best way to look at this is this: We now have a well maintained car and a team of qualified mechanics on staff. The paint might need a bit of work, but she's all good under the hood and will see us through another 10+ years, as long as we can fund the mechanics and the needed regular servicing.
Don't worry too much about the paint job, we'll be working on that over the next couple of months.
Rather than write 10,000 words on the history of vBulletin, its developers, Internet Brands who bought it, what happened to those developers, where IB took the software, the history of the plugins we used, the fact that vB 3.9 is IB-only... and I could go on and on with little bits and bobs that each could be turned into a chapter in a book.
The short and punchy lay-person friendly version is:
- The old forum software (vBulletin 3.8.x) is very big and complicated. Big and complicated things take large teams of expensive software developers to develop and maintain.
- Software developers are in high demand and cost a lot of money.
- Cheap software developers are a false economy, and usually cause more damage than they repair.
- diyAudio does not make enough money to pay for even one good software developer full time let alone a team of developers who would be competent modifying ancient, unsupported EOL (end of life) code that relies on other unsupported EOL code
- I have been donating my own time as a jack-of-all-trades-software-developer-and-systems-administrator for 20 years at great discount to market rates for these services. I've enjoyed it a lot. But if I disappeared, diyAudio disappeared at the first hiccup. Everything was on my shoulders. This was dangerous for the community.
- To maintain the old software and server and keep it secure from hackers, and for those people to have to learn all the ins and outs of 10-years-outdated software, would have cost an astronomical sum that we could not afford
- The old software was not maintained by the new owners (Internet Brands)
- The authors of vb3 left to start XF. The new owners (IB) tried to sue the authors for starting XF, lost the case, then created new versions of the software (vB4, vB5) without the original authors, and these versions were universally panned as being not-very-good (vB4) and terrible (vB5 aka "vBulletin Connect"), and moving towards being like Facebook, almost no forums migrated from vB3 to vB4, and even less to vB5.
- Most vb3 forums have migrated to XF because the original developers of vb3 are the ones that wrote and maintain XF, so it's a very natural progression, feels similar, and why most have migrated to XF
- When software goes EOL, version interdependencies fall apart. vB3 can't run on a version of PHP (the server language) that is up to date. The version of PHP it relies on is EOL. To run that version of PHP you need a server that is EOL, or have to start hacking source code (very expensive). And plugins that are EOL. Everything becomes a horrible twisted rats nest of EOL software. Each EOL thing might not work with the specific kind of EOL thing another EOL thing needs. You get into a situation of "version locks" where it can (and does) eventually become impossible to get all the bits running at the same time. A might need B to be version 1.5 max and C might need B to be version 1.6 min and can't run with B being version 1.5.
- To hire the right people to competently keep vBulletin 3 updated, and also everything it relies on (PHP, server software, plugins, tools, etc), would cost millions if not tens of millions of dollars. Just completely impractical.
- What is practical? Use all up to date software, libraries, plugins, connections that are all currently being maintained by their own respective (expensive) teams, and we get the benefit of it.
- What do we have now? Modern, up to date, well maintained software, server, plugins, dependencies. A partnership with a team of XenForo development experts and the forum not relying solely on me to stay up.
If there is a particular facet you'd like me to go into more detail (and no doubt I've missed the wood for the tress here as I tried to avoid going down rabbit holes), let me know. I'm happy to explain or go into detail on anything you'd like more information about.
The best way to look at this is this: We now have a well maintained car and a team of qualified mechanics on staff. The paint might need a bit of work, but she's all good under the hood and will see us through another 10+ years, as long as we can fund the mechanics and the needed regular servicing.
Don't worry too much about the paint job, we'll be working on that over the next couple of months.
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Surely judging a DIY audio forum by how 'edgy' you can make your political threads before moderation kicks in, isnt the most suitable metric? politics has always been off bounds btw.
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@Jason Yes, even more a house of cards than I imagined and hopefully enough to answer peoples queries/conspiracies. I didn't realise you were pretty much the sole code developer. Mate, cant thank you enough for your time. As to the forum, aside from the wrapper, I like it and once that is sorted out, I don't see why it wont be better. There are already a number of improvements and the issues are solvable. Well, aside from the human condition; that one is tricky!
I think it’s great, an adjustment sure, but have been appreciating the upgrades as I discover them. Has been like an advent calendar!
Having used other forums, it seems incredibly normal and more modern with the new changes.
No issues here.
No issues here.
Web pages need scrolling, and/or switching pages, because the screen is not infinitely large and eyes can see only that much detail. Cant fit the internet on single screen. If scrolling is hard I think there are aids in the computer help with it. I would also guess accessibility is much better here overall than with old forum. Can't see reason to complain other than disliking change, which is what people dislike, change. Even if it was for better.
Writing and attaching documents is miles ahead of the old system, as well as reliability on the writing, no lost posts. One thing lost was that cpuntry flags went away, thisnin combination with not many avatars has taken some time to get used to whos who, need to memorize the actual nick names better 😀 other than that, I like the change, it is for the better.
Writing and attaching documents is miles ahead of the old system, as well as reliability on the writing, no lost posts. One thing lost was that cpuntry flags went away, thisnin combination with not many avatars has taken some time to get used to whos who, need to memorize the actual nick names better 😀 other than that, I like the change, it is for the better.
I'm guessing you are using it on mobile @WhiteDragon and are thus not phased by the lack of information density?
I've used plenty of other forums too, but they are certainly not all good and this one was preferable for reading technical content. When half a hi-res 27" monitor only fits a few comments on the page, regardless of how small your font is, its frustrating and not a good use of resources. Sure, I can scroll, but its really not a valid solution. If I handed you (or a lecturer for example) a technical book, or thesis with double, or triple the normal line spacing, so you had to turn the page 3 times as often, would you or they see that as a good thing do you think? sure, maybe you can set that to be automatic, but it seems to me a problem that is better avoided and I know the guys have taken that feedback from mny onboard and are already doing something about it. There are currently plusses (I think it could be very good, I like the potential, but i'm also a bit afraid of the potential ... )
My minuses have nothing to do with 'not wanting change' more to do with having used forums using this engine for a few years already and found them to be lacking and preferred this one due to the information density and not so toylike interface. It also comes from a viewpoint of being a designer for print and digital media for many years (a VERY early adopter of digital in design) and using all manner of forums and online info/study portals.
I'm more than a little afraid of the sort of loud, illegible and badly formatted text we will no doubt have to read, now that people have the ability to change fonts, colours etc. I'm excited too, as the new tools will allow some very cool design; but lets just say, having the tools available and knowing how to use them in a clear and concise manner, are not in any way tied together. Just ask the designer of your last work Christmas party invitation. I'm just glad comic sans isn't an option 🤮
See, here—above—in the body text; i've used a smaller 12pt serif font called Verdana (a fallback of the standard fonts) and that helps somewhat, but each and every person on a page, can change what font they use.
As a somewhat opinionated designer, this idea fills me with dread 😧
I've used plenty of other forums too, but they are certainly not all good and this one was preferable for reading technical content. When half a hi-res 27" monitor only fits a few comments on the page, regardless of how small your font is, its frustrating and not a good use of resources. Sure, I can scroll, but its really not a valid solution. If I handed you (or a lecturer for example) a technical book, or thesis with double, or triple the normal line spacing, so you had to turn the page 3 times as often, would you or they see that as a good thing do you think? sure, maybe you can set that to be automatic, but it seems to me a problem that is better avoided and I know the guys have taken that feedback from mny onboard and are already doing something about it. There are currently plusses (I think it could be very good, I like the potential, but i'm also a bit afraid of the potential ... )
My minuses have nothing to do with 'not wanting change' more to do with having used forums using this engine for a few years already and found them to be lacking and preferred this one due to the information density and not so toylike interface. It also comes from a viewpoint of being a designer for print and digital media for many years (a VERY early adopter of digital in design) and using all manner of forums and online info/study portals.
I'm more than a little afraid of the sort of loud, illegible and badly formatted text we will no doubt have to read, now that people have the ability to change fonts, colours etc. I'm excited too, as the new tools will allow some very cool design; but lets just say, having the tools available and knowing how to use them in a clear and concise manner, are not in any way tied together. Just ask the designer of your last work Christmas party invitation. I'm just glad comic sans isn't an option 🤮
See, here—above—in the body text; i've used a smaller 12pt serif font called Verdana (a fallback of the standard fonts) and that helps somewhat, but each and every person on a page, can change what font they use.
As a somewhat opinionated designer, this idea fills me with dread 😧
@InspectorGadget that's waaay too small and hard to read on my screen. Much prefer the larger sans-serif fonts!
and that, is exactly the problem, isn't it? we dont all use the same hardware to view, or have the same settings in our browsers. 12 point is normal, legible size text and if its silly small on your monitor, its because of your settings. Your text is stupidly large on my screen. Any designer worth their salt will tell you anything you need to read for a good amount of time, serif fonts are more readable. thats what serifs are for and why books dont generally use sans serif for body text.
So i've changed my zoom settings in brave to adjust this site and make your text more usable, but it makes a lot of other pages that are open too small. the 12pt text is now still readable for me with Georgia (not verdana, that was a mistake above)
So i've changed my zoom settings in brave to adjust this site and make your text more usable, but it makes a lot of other pages that are open too small. the 12pt text is now still readable for me with Georgia (not verdana, that was a mistake above). This line is arial, both of these are 12pt, for me, even though georgia is very slightly smaller at the same 12pt size, its more readable. Anyway, none of this is a huge deal, i'm happy for the change, but I can foresee some issues and have just illustrated one 🙂
So i've changed my zoom settings in brave to adjust this site and make your text more usable, but it makes a lot of other pages that are open too small. the 12pt text is now still readable for me with Georgia (not verdana, that was a mistake above). This line is arial, both of these are 12pt, for me, even though georgia is very slightly smaller at the same 12pt size, its more readable. Anyway, none of this is a huge deal, i'm happy for the change, but I can foresee some issues and have just illustrated one 🙂
If you don't want your post to be legible, go ahead and use tiny serif fonts. For most of our screens and eyes, it will go unread. 😛
Yes, when text does Not have user styles on it overriding system Accessible styling, one can just zoom the page for example, or use any other accessibility functions available in the browser to adjust text size. Hopefully people don't find the color and font settings, they just prevent the readability / accessibility happening I think.
At least on my (windows) brosers ctrl + mouse wheel zooms the content just fine, text goes bigger or smaller to fit more on the screen. There should be other accessibility features available on the browsers / computers, haven't checked deeper though. Since my screen is not infinite I have to scroll the content and switch pages anyway so I don't bother if there is few centimeters more scrolling. I hope it helps you InspectorGadget and others!
Also, nothing wrong asking the forum developers provide accessibility features, if they are not supported.
At least on my (windows) brosers ctrl + mouse wheel zooms the content just fine, text goes bigger or smaller to fit more on the screen. There should be other accessibility features available on the browsers / computers, haven't checked deeper though. Since my screen is not infinite I have to scroll the content and switch pages anyway so I don't bother if there is few centimeters more scrolling. I hope it helps you InspectorGadget and others!
Also, nothing wrong asking the forum developers provide accessibility features, if they are not supported.