My apologies to all; I should have started a separate thread which you would have been free to ignore.
Hey Noah, Certainly no offense was ment. The whole blind testing thing can get interesting, but this forum is not the place for this part of the discussion. The last few pages frankly have been interesting. I think a question to be asked is how to lower the gain to the standard 26DB. That would then put this animal on a more level playing field.
Ray
Ray
Lars mentioned somewhere that less feedback as possible provides more dynamics in the sound. I quite agree. Normally unless the circuit is designed for total non-feedback, less feedback will result in more gain, along with other factors such as power am sensitivity, noise, etc. It's a pure tradeoff issue.
soongsc said:
BTW, accordingly some THD plots on the newclassd.com, it seems loop gain is rather bigger 10-40 times vs UcD.
Well said. I have every intention for leaving the gain as is. There is simply no good reason at all for either trying to mess with the gain, or create the falsehood of a "level playing field", which could only be of interest for comparative blind or double blind testing.. with which I'm uninterested.
More immediately useful are the current shortcommings of implementation that are keeping it from working to the best of its ability, like any hiss issues (already fixed... for single ended use anyway) or too puny a PSU.
Given the listening I've done thus far, I think the PSU is obviously holding it back a good deal, especially on my speakers of choice. Sadly I don't have a better xformer for it at hand. However, I do have a set of 10 000uF caps free, BHC T-networks no less (thanks to Lars actually), and so I think implementing his caps with his amp is the least I can do.
That's what I'm working on now anyway.
For those who feel they need a bit more fo a review thus far..keep in mind that I hesitate to do so because of the different input stage bypass caps, they do sound different, and that's just got to screw with soundstage and imaging.
So I'll say this on the matter:
-It seems musical.
-It's rather easy to listen to.. I do enjoy it.
-Soundstage seems nice and high.... that's all I'm willing to say on it at this point.
-Imaging, to be determined.
-Neutrality, fairly good, but also better determined later.
-Transparency, it's got a kind of signature, all be it an extremely silky and smooth one. With the ground lifts gone, I thought it somewhat more transparent, in that it remained silky, but now more on the crisp side than smoothed. Enjoyable either way.
Cleanliness, resolution, control, attack, decay.. I feel are areas where it has some real potential, but the current supply is really hurting it.
Some of the above could also very well turn out to be night and day different in post filter feedback mode as well, which I still look forward to trying it in.
In summation for now, it is one of the better amps I've heard, far far beyond any commercial junk, maybe not that "true to the source", but very enjoyable, musical, and easy to listen to.
BTW, it turns on with a little bit of a snap, and turns off with a little bit of a Zzzzztt. No big deal. I did however manage to get a pretty good crack out of it a few times by powering it up again maybe 4 to 6 seconds after power down... and have been able to make it do it a few times, but for whatever reason not each time. I think it can benefit from a better power up/shutdown procedure, hopefully Lars can implement one via software.
*I reserve the right to a full reversal of opinion at any given time, pending clearance of Lars' payment in full.
**The world's lowest THD or whatever (if true), well, it isn't the sole factor at play. 🙂
Cheers,
Chris
More immediately useful are the current shortcommings of implementation that are keeping it from working to the best of its ability, like any hiss issues (already fixed... for single ended use anyway) or too puny a PSU.
Given the listening I've done thus far, I think the PSU is obviously holding it back a good deal, especially on my speakers of choice. Sadly I don't have a better xformer for it at hand. However, I do have a set of 10 000uF caps free, BHC T-networks no less (thanks to Lars actually), and so I think implementing his caps with his amp is the least I can do.
That's what I'm working on now anyway.
For those who feel they need a bit more fo a review thus far..keep in mind that I hesitate to do so because of the different input stage bypass caps, they do sound different, and that's just got to screw with soundstage and imaging.
So I'll say this on the matter:
-It seems musical.
-It's rather easy to listen to.. I do enjoy it.
-Soundstage seems nice and high.... that's all I'm willing to say on it at this point.
-Imaging, to be determined.
-Neutrality, fairly good, but also better determined later.
-Transparency, it's got a kind of signature, all be it an extremely silky and smooth one. With the ground lifts gone, I thought it somewhat more transparent, in that it remained silky, but now more on the crisp side than smoothed. Enjoyable either way.
Cleanliness, resolution, control, attack, decay.. I feel are areas where it has some real potential, but the current supply is really hurting it.
Some of the above could also very well turn out to be night and day different in post filter feedback mode as well, which I still look forward to trying it in.
In summation for now, it is one of the better amps I've heard, far far beyond any commercial junk, maybe not that "true to the source", but very enjoyable, musical, and easy to listen to.
BTW, it turns on with a little bit of a snap, and turns off with a little bit of a Zzzzztt. No big deal. I did however manage to get a pretty good crack out of it a few times by powering it up again maybe 4 to 6 seconds after power down... and have been able to make it do it a few times, but for whatever reason not each time. I think it can benefit from a better power up/shutdown procedure, hopefully Lars can implement one via software.
*I reserve the right to a full reversal of opinion at any given time, pending clearance of Lars' payment in full.
**The world's lowest THD or whatever (if true), well, it isn't the sole factor at play. 🙂
Cheers,
Chris
Hi Ray,
I think we discuss things that we want to discuss, and that it will never be a consensus about what to discuss.
Probably, people who are aware of the difficulties in evaluating Hi-fi gear, are those who least need the discussion.
I participated in a test of 29 two-handed fly rods, the test was made in one single day. Two months ago, I bought a new rod, which I have now fished with , in Norway, and which I also have done a lot of flycasting pratice with. Still I am not entirely prepered to wright a review of it.My perception of it varies from day to day , and naturally , by which lines I am using and if I am eventually fishing or just practising.
If this is about rather simple mechanical system , and my perception of it , an amp in a system is a much more complicated thing to evaluate. By pretending it isn´t , we do ourselfs no favour!
Regards
Håkan
I think we discuss things that we want to discuss, and that it will never be a consensus about what to discuss.
Probably, people who are aware of the difficulties in evaluating Hi-fi gear, are those who least need the discussion.
I participated in a test of 29 two-handed fly rods, the test was made in one single day. Two months ago, I bought a new rod, which I have now fished with , in Norway, and which I also have done a lot of flycasting pratice with. Still I am not entirely prepered to wright a review of it.My perception of it varies from day to day , and naturally , by which lines I am using and if I am eventually fishing or just practising.
If this is about rather simple mechanical system , and my perception of it , an amp in a system is a much more complicated thing to evaluate. By pretending it isn´t , we do ourselfs no favour!
Regards
Håkan
"If this is about rather simple mechanical system , and my perception of it , an amp in a system is a much more complicared thing to evaluate. By pretending it isn´t , we do ourselfs no favour!"
No kidding. ........ but, have you blind casted?
No kidding. ........ but, have you blind casted?
In the test , we knew which rods we were testing(no labels were
hidden ) , but we were supposed not to look at what the other tester(co-tester?) had written. But by accident,or volontarely, one or two lines was read by me, at least. And the reason for this, was no will of mine to fake, but instead; it was hard to find the right words, all the time.
The following factors may have played a role in the process(of evaluating): fatique ; in this case I admitt that I tried to compensate for it, thus I tried to be more positive to the rods later in the row. Hunger, yes it effected us. Weather:it stareted to rain , which of course effected us.
As for the question, there is almost the same discussion about expectations and the possibility of blind testing( in the world of flyfishing), but not as intense as here 😉 .
Casting in the dark, or by closing your eyes, can indeed be good
training!😎
BTW, my brother is blind, and interested in Hi-fi . He says , that expectations play a major role;if he buys a new component, he´s not sure if he hears a real improvement, or if it´s just an imagination.Still , he invests in gear like Ayre´s top of the line player....I believe he hear a difference, but he may lack some confidence.Shall I encourage him? Well , last friday I wisited him,
and disagreed, when he said that he´s first (cheap) system might have sounded almost as good. It didn´t, even if we haven´t done any blind testing😉
hidden ) , but we were supposed not to look at what the other tester(co-tester?) had written. But by accident,or volontarely, one or two lines was read by me, at least. And the reason for this, was no will of mine to fake, but instead; it was hard to find the right words, all the time.
The following factors may have played a role in the process(of evaluating): fatique ; in this case I admitt that I tried to compensate for it, thus I tried to be more positive to the rods later in the row. Hunger, yes it effected us. Weather:it stareted to rain , which of course effected us.
As for the question, there is almost the same discussion about expectations and the possibility of blind testing( in the world of flyfishing), but not as intense as here 😉 .
Casting in the dark, or by closing your eyes, can indeed be good
training!😎
BTW, my brother is blind, and interested in Hi-fi . He says , that expectations play a major role;if he buys a new component, he´s not sure if he hears a real improvement, or if it´s just an imagination.Still , he invests in gear like Ayre´s top of the line player....I believe he hear a difference, but he may lack some confidence.Shall I encourage him? Well , last friday I wisited him,
and disagreed, when he said that he´s first (cheap) system might have sounded almost as good. It didn´t, even if we haven´t done any blind testing😉
You have no memory of sound quality, what so ever, not even how the sound was yesterday
You only remember the experience and can recall the emotions you had at the moment
You only remember the experience and can recall the emotions you had at the moment
hmmm.... by lifting the descriptive words off the sheets of others, you somewhat invalidated your personal impression, don't you think?
"Casting in the dark, or by closing your eyes, can indeed be good
training!"
Tell that to the snagee.
"that expectations plays a major role"
Yeah well, that could possibly explain a few nuforce awards, and happy customers who can live with the RF noise, yet jump to the next "revision" as quick as possible.
I find it's a problem if you allow your expectations to come from a review, especially those of questionable morals, sanity and background, or for that matter, any other salesman's pitch.
I quickly found all of the above to be an unreliable source and chose to become as educated as possible on the topic to better judge for myself as a result. I don't say that to try and push my opinion on anyone who might read this... it's just my own diy way. I find the most reliable means of judging the unknown is obviously the word of the public at large, and I am but one. So as more come along it will get more interesting. I hope like hell no one is pulling out their credit card based on anything I've written... or even putting it away. They need to take in other factors. Blessed be el "early adopter". Personally, I'm not a gambler, I prefer absolutes.
Anyway, by the time you listen to something long enough to get a fair evaluation your initial impression has worn off and you have a more informed opinion, removed of any expectations. Anything else and you're possibly deaf, dense (too thick to form your own opinion, programmable) or just off your rocker completely.
In other words, expectations are quickly subject to the five stages of grief, unless you're the sort that dwells at any given stage, or keeps cycling back and forth through them (see "off your rocker"... "tweaker"). 🙂
"Casting in the dark, or by closing your eyes, can indeed be good
training!"
Tell that to the snagee.
"that expectations plays a major role"
Yeah well, that could possibly explain a few nuforce awards, and happy customers who can live with the RF noise, yet jump to the next "revision" as quick as possible.
I find it's a problem if you allow your expectations to come from a review, especially those of questionable morals, sanity and background, or for that matter, any other salesman's pitch.
I quickly found all of the above to be an unreliable source and chose to become as educated as possible on the topic to better judge for myself as a result. I don't say that to try and push my opinion on anyone who might read this... it's just my own diy way. I find the most reliable means of judging the unknown is obviously the word of the public at large, and I am but one. So as more come along it will get more interesting. I hope like hell no one is pulling out their credit card based on anything I've written... or even putting it away. They need to take in other factors. Blessed be el "early adopter". Personally, I'm not a gambler, I prefer absolutes.
Anyway, by the time you listen to something long enough to get a fair evaluation your initial impression has worn off and you have a more informed opinion, removed of any expectations. Anything else and you're possibly deaf, dense (too thick to form your own opinion, programmable) or just off your rocker completely.
In other words, expectations are quickly subject to the five stages of grief, unless you're the sort that dwells at any given stage, or keeps cycling back and forth through them (see "off your rocker"... "tweaker"). 🙂
Music, to me at least, is all about emotions
Problem starts when you try to put words on it
Its an subjective and intellectual proces and has really nothing to do with sound
OH, yes I read tests with great pleasure - and yours too😉
Funny thing though, we often seem to learn more about the tester than the test object - and that might be a good thing, to know his/hers preferences, and so be able to make our own judgements
Problem starts when you try to put words on it
Its an subjective and intellectual proces and has really nothing to do with sound
OH, yes I read tests with great pleasure - and yours too😉
Funny thing though, we often seem to learn more about the tester than the test object - and that might be a good thing, to know his/hers preferences, and so be able to make our own judgements
Based on what Chris has talked about so far, I am sure that I can get a good feeling on what he describes when he does a more detailed review.
Yes, people can have expectations, and one can become biased, that is why it's good to have someone else describe what they hear and see if you can detect what you might have missed. It's importatnt not to make a judgement in a review as to what is good or bad compared against another, but against what one feels to be a more acurrate presentation of the recording. One thing that is valuable if you can do it, is to look though various test data in different forms and see if you can find changes that relate with what you hear. If the difference can be found and explained technically, then you will have better confidence which is really more accurate.
Music is definitly about emotions, you can either be moved yourself of you can feel the performers imotions. Equipment do not have to be very good for one to be moved by the music, but for one to feel the emotions of the performer at the time of the recording, good equipment is most likely necessary.
Yes, people can have expectations, and one can become biased, that is why it's good to have someone else describe what they hear and see if you can detect what you might have missed. It's importatnt not to make a judgement in a review as to what is good or bad compared against another, but against what one feels to be a more acurrate presentation of the recording. One thing that is valuable if you can do it, is to look though various test data in different forms and see if you can find changes that relate with what you hear. If the difference can be found and explained technically, then you will have better confidence which is really more accurate.
Music is definitly about emotions, you can either be moved yourself of you can feel the performers imotions. Equipment do not have to be very good for one to be moved by the music, but for one to feel the emotions of the performer at the time of the recording, good equipment is most likely necessary.
I don't know, I think I've yet to feal opiated from listening to hendrix or alice in chains.... hey, I'll keep working on it though.
Once the sweet spot is hit, it's addictive. I get a good dosage of lullabys every night.
But really feel the performer into it, well, there is still a little more to improve on. Hope the NCD can help compared to the XL-280 that I'm using right now (they get really hot nowadays, but never was even warm when I just started out with them). I even retested them with the Null Difference test, and it still does quite well.
But really feel the performer into it, well, there is still a little more to improve on. Hope the NCD can help compared to the XL-280 that I'm using right now (they get really hot nowadays, but never was even warm when I just started out with them). I even retested them with the Null Difference test, and it still does quite well.tinitus said:
Well "sound quality" as it pertains to the listener has to do with familiarization to various sonic characteristics. Some amps leave a fingerprint... some don't. To pretend one can't become familiar with such a fingerprint goes against my way of thinking. If we were all so deaf, babies wouldn't know the voice of their mothers, mothers wouldn't know the sound of their babies, Ford enthusiasts wouldn't be able to recognize that uniqueness that is Ford.. and so on. We wouldnt' be able to discern a fire alarm from a phone ring or a door bell.
I do agree that the emotional aspect ties in more with your own personal experiences and memories though. To start thinking that you're actually experiencing the emotion of the artist at the time it was played is a little delusional in my view. Said artist felt a certain way at the time the piece was conceived, as it was perfected over time, they possibly went through PMS, withdrawls, constipation, synthetic euphoria... speaking of which most musicians are probably so drugged they're no longer familiar with a true emotion.
Whatever emotions their work is able to bring out in you has to do with how talented they are at what they do, how well the crowd got into it in a live recording .. The more the amp can deliver that "you are there" thing, the more you can get into it too. Over the thousands of times the artist themselves have played the same piece though, they've obviously run the emotional gamut, it just makes no sense to think you can feel what they are.
So you're left with the choice of an amp that gives the most true to the source representation, most transparent, neutral.. the one that reveals everything good or bad, but do you really want that? Do you really want to experience every single bad recording/mix for the way it really is? I've found there really isn't that many good ones!
So maybe another option is one with a certain fingerprint, less true to the source, one that burries most recording/mix flaws in a viel of silky smoothness.. that seems euphorically pleasing all the time.
Maybe both aren't that bad? Maybe most people don't really know what the hell they want anyway??
Hell if I know.
Chris,
"If we were all so deaf, babies wouldn't know the voice of their mothers, mothers wouldn't know the sound of their babies, Ford enthusiasts wouldn't be able to recognize that uniqueness that is Ford.. and so on. We wouldnt' be able to discern a fire alarm from a phone ring or a door bell...."
I don't think that's a fair comparison; all those sounds are easily distinguishable with measurements or voice analyzer.
Can you say the same about different amps that have the same freq response to within a fraction of a dB and fractions of a % distortion?
"If we were all so deaf, babies wouldn't know the voice of their mothers, mothers wouldn't know the sound of their babies, Ford enthusiasts wouldn't be able to recognize that uniqueness that is Ford.. and so on. We wouldnt' be able to discern a fire alarm from a phone ring or a door bell...."
I don't think that's a fair comparison; all those sounds are easily distinguishable with measurements or voice analyzer.
Can you say the same about different amps that have the same freq response to within a fraction of a dB and fractions of a % distortion?
Yeah, I'm thinking so, depending on the amps and my level of familiarity with them.
Let me twist your reality again. To me, one crying baby sounds just like any other. Also alot of people couldn't tell a Ford Mustang from a town bus. 😉
Let me twist your reality again. To me, one crying baby sounds just like any other. Also alot of people couldn't tell a Ford Mustang from a town bus. 😉
Seems we are aware of some problems, but don´t forget to enjoy the music!🙂
I the case of my brother, he´s listening room leaves a thing or two , to be wished for. We had talks on installing bass traps, but he was against that. When we replaced the amp he used; a Dynamic Precision A1(Norwegian) , with two (Norwegian) Electrocompaniet AW 400 monoblocks, the problems with the excess in the bass and the boom , clearly deminished. I bought his old amp , and use it for my subs, extreme pace ,rythm and control from this expensive amp (and 200lb/each subs), in my room.
So, I´m (mostly) with you Chris, we want to enjoy the music, and
this may be a slight deviation from a purist´s point of view! 😉
Pragmatical maybe, but not in a MP3 way!
I the case of my brother, he´s listening room leaves a thing or two , to be wished for. We had talks on installing bass traps, but he was against that. When we replaced the amp he used; a Dynamic Precision A1(Norwegian) , with two (Norwegian) Electrocompaniet AW 400 monoblocks, the problems with the excess in the bass and the boom , clearly deminished. I bought his old amp , and use it for my subs, extreme pace ,rythm and control from this expensive amp (and 200lb/each subs), in my room.
So, I´m (mostly) with you Chris, we want to enjoy the music, and
this may be a slight deviation from a purist´s point of view! 😉
Pragmatical maybe, but not in a MP3 way!
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