Sure, your right, we all know the sound of different instruments...a trick of the mind....a constructed imitation of our own conception....and we can recall it WHEN we hear it
Just try and clear your head in absolute silence, and think of different kinds of sound....and what do you hear....nothing....I hope
As I recall you listened to Nuforce, and I bet you believe you can remember how it sounded....no, what you remember are your thougts and feelings about it....and yes, you remember the sound once you hear it again
But of course you can judge if its good, better or worse, I dont deny that
And then there is this unexplainable "foottapping" factor....is it real or "fake", or maybe both.
Just try and clear your head in absolute silence, and think of different kinds of sound....and what do you hear....nothing....I hope
As I recall you listened to Nuforce, and I bet you believe you can remember how it sounded....no, what you remember are your thougts and feelings about it....and yes, you remember the sound once you hear it again
But of course you can judge if its good, better or worse, I dont deny that
And then there is this unexplainable "foottapping" factor....is it real or "fake", or maybe both.
😀
Personally I aim for the "true to the source" as much as possible, and so endure many a bad recording.
The euphoric fingerprint isn't so bad though?
I guess it's just another area where nothing is so polar that you can't enjoy a middle ground.
Yup, in my opinion Lars' NCD is not the most true to the source I've heard, but has good qualities and I find it very enjoyable.
Personally I aim for the "true to the source" as much as possible, and so endure many a bad recording.
The euphoric fingerprint isn't so bad though?
I guess it's just another area where nothing is so polar that you can't enjoy a middle ground.
Yup, in my opinion Lars' NCD is not the most true to the source I've heard, but has good qualities and I find it very enjoyable.
Yep the foottapping factor as you say is what I refer to as being musical, if it is enjoyable or not.
Nope, I've never heard a nuforce. (whew)
Nope, I've never heard a nuforce. (whew)
Chris,
"Yeah, I'm thinking so, depending on the amps and my level of familiarity with them."
? I know you say *you* can tell the difference between amps, but my question was, is the difference easily measureable.
As another way of stating my point, I think Hafler's null test (sum the input with opposite polariy output which has been padded to the same level) on any competent amp would give an output tens of dB down, where I'd expect only several dB from doing that with different voices, engines, etc.
"Yeah, I'm thinking so, depending on the amps and my level of familiarity with them."
? I know you say *you* can tell the difference between amps, but my question was, is the difference easily measureable.
As another way of stating my point, I think Hafler's null test (sum the input with opposite polariy output which has been padded to the same level) on any competent amp would give an output tens of dB down, where I'd expect only several dB from doing that with different voices, engines, etc.
Oh, I see. We're talking about distinguishing measurements now.
"Can you say the same about different amps that have the same freq response to within a fraction of a dB and fractions of a % distortion?"
See now I thought you were trying to say "if for all intensive purposes, they measure the same, can you then audibly distinguish them", but as you've corrected me, I see it's solely the measurement results you're interested in, and you don't care about the sound anymore.
If you don't find your measurements reliable enough to know if the results are meaningful, then I don't see you distinguishing them based on measurements alone... maybe you should try listening.
Tell me how you propose accurately doing a hafler null test on crying babies or Ford Mustang exhaust notes without introducing additional error? I'd obviously agree with your prediction on that, I think I question the reasoning though, and at this point, more so the motive.
I think we're on different worlds anyway... look, I'm waving...see me?
"Can you say the same about different amps that have the same freq response to within a fraction of a dB and fractions of a % distortion?"
See now I thought you were trying to say "if for all intensive purposes, they measure the same, can you then audibly distinguish them", but as you've corrected me, I see it's solely the measurement results you're interested in, and you don't care about the sound anymore.
If you don't find your measurements reliable enough to know if the results are meaningful, then I don't see you distinguishing them based on measurements alone... maybe you should try listening.
Tell me how you propose accurately doing a hafler null test on crying babies or Ford Mustang exhaust notes without introducing additional error? I'd obviously agree with your prediction on that, I think I question the reasoning though, and at this point, more so the motive.
I think we're on different worlds anyway... look, I'm waving...see me?
noah katz said:
Here is the actual device that was used to perform the test. I actually used a true rms meter to monitor the difference where the headphone is supposed to be located, but with current computer testing technilogy, it's not difficult to actually do a frequency difference test.
Attachments
So just for argumentative purposes if one were to do this hafler test with a crying baby or exhaust note... and compare the precision of doing it with an amp, I propose you use the very same microphone to measure the output of the amp at the speaker in a controlled environment 🙂 I'd expect the same db or two difference.
Don't mess with my analogies
Don't mess with my analogies
I'm just trying to hang on to any vestiges of reason; since you're an engineer (right?), I thought you'd have a similar inclination.
It's one thing to say our ear/brain is a marvelous system capable of discerning nuances we cannot measure; I'll accept that possibility.
But it's not reasonable to make the comparison of amps different amps vs different voices.
I guess your prickly reaction to that means you disagree, which baffles me.
It's one thing to say our ear/brain is a marvelous system capable of discerning nuances we cannot measure; I'll accept that possibility.
But it's not reasonable to make the comparison of amps different amps vs different voices.
I guess your prickly reaction to that means you disagree, which baffles me.
Ok.. let's both not take things too out of context.
That analogy was a bit of an exagerated argument to the statement:
"You have no memory of sound quality, what so ever, not even how the sound was yesterday".
I'm pretty sure you do. Listen to two amps of fairly different characteristics (they obviously don't sound the same from the start, so it becomes irrelevant how they may measure), aaaand you're making a conscious effort to note any differences, you'll be able to comment on it a month or a year later. If you accept that, then obviously there's a memory for sound quality, at least as much as there is for anything else you experience.
I guess you're going on the basis that one amp doesn't sound very different than the next, especially if they measure extremely close. Honestly, I haven't tried to know! As you said before, that's a topic worthy of its own thread/research/experiments/discussion.
It would depend on alot of factors I'm sure. Really though, I'm just a little frustrated because I don't see the relevance to any such comments here. No two amps I discuss here measure the same for one thing (I'm guessing), and they clearly do have a fairly different character, period.
I appreciate your clarifying your position for me btw, I hope I've done the same for you.
Cheers
PS: I'm not an engineer, just a hack, and of the line of thinking that if every possible factor were accounted for via measurement I'd think they would sound the same. I dont' go for the magic stuff.
PSS: Pricklyness is due to 4 hours sleep and pre coffee posting. My bad. Sorry 🙁
That analogy was a bit of an exagerated argument to the statement:
"You have no memory of sound quality, what so ever, not even how the sound was yesterday".
I'm pretty sure you do. Listen to two amps of fairly different characteristics (they obviously don't sound the same from the start, so it becomes irrelevant how they may measure), aaaand you're making a conscious effort to note any differences, you'll be able to comment on it a month or a year later. If you accept that, then obviously there's a memory for sound quality, at least as much as there is for anything else you experience.
I guess you're going on the basis that one amp doesn't sound very different than the next, especially if they measure extremely close. Honestly, I haven't tried to know! As you said before, that's a topic worthy of its own thread/research/experiments/discussion.
It would depend on alot of factors I'm sure. Really though, I'm just a little frustrated because I don't see the relevance to any such comments here. No two amps I discuss here measure the same for one thing (I'm guessing), and they clearly do have a fairly different character, period.
I appreciate your clarifying your position for me btw, I hope I've done the same for you.
Cheers
PS: I'm not an engineer, just a hack, and of the line of thinking that if every possible factor were accounted for via measurement I'd think they would sound the same. I dont' go for the magic stuff.
PSS: Pricklyness is due to 4 hours sleep and pre coffee posting. My bad. Sorry 🙁
Blind testing...
This has to be the most boring subject littering the various internet fora.
I am sick of people arguing that amplifiers sound the same if they have similar distortion levels . I have much experience in doing channel to channel comparisons when making one at a time chages to otherwise identical monoblock amplifiers. I work closely with a friend when doing this, and we often try to fool each other, by not identifying the channel that has had the change made OR by making no change. Both of us pick a change vs no change nearly every time... Now picking whether the change is an improvement is the hard part.
The changes BTW can often be no more than a substitution of a length of hook up wire or a passive part. I know there is no scientific PROOF that I can discriminate in the way I have mentioned but do I care? I have done it often enough to know in my own mind that I am correct.
I have also (once) taken part in blind testing, of speaker cables as it happened, at an audio club meeting. The test as I recall involved 20 A vs B tests the audience picking whether there was a change between A and B. A being 2 lengths of a cheap reference cable. Sometimes B was the reference sometimes it wasn't. The amplifier was not driven into clipping. I found the whole experience stressful and boring. However I did pick the correct result 19 out of 20 times- good enough for me. At the end I was completely exhausted with the effort of concentrating. It was the last test I got wrong.
Now these changes were not on the whole hard to hear, but they did get harder as the night progressed! I doubt what I heard
could easily be explained by currently available distortion tests either.
Can we just drop the subject? If you doubt differences can be heard I wonder what you are doing on a DIY forum. Presumably nothing anyone can say will change your mind and we are way off the topic.
Rob.
This has to be the most boring subject littering the various internet fora.
I am sick of people arguing that amplifiers sound the same if they have similar distortion levels . I have much experience in doing channel to channel comparisons when making one at a time chages to otherwise identical monoblock amplifiers. I work closely with a friend when doing this, and we often try to fool each other, by not identifying the channel that has had the change made OR by making no change. Both of us pick a change vs no change nearly every time... Now picking whether the change is an improvement is the hard part.
The changes BTW can often be no more than a substitution of a length of hook up wire or a passive part. I know there is no scientific PROOF that I can discriminate in the way I have mentioned but do I care? I have done it often enough to know in my own mind that I am correct.
I have also (once) taken part in blind testing, of speaker cables as it happened, at an audio club meeting. The test as I recall involved 20 A vs B tests the audience picking whether there was a change between A and B. A being 2 lengths of a cheap reference cable. Sometimes B was the reference sometimes it wasn't. The amplifier was not driven into clipping. I found the whole experience stressful and boring. However I did pick the correct result 19 out of 20 times- good enough for me. At the end I was completely exhausted with the effort of concentrating. It was the last test I got wrong.
Now these changes were not on the whole hard to hear, but they did get harder as the night progressed! I doubt what I heard
could easily be explained by currently available distortion tests either.
Can we just drop the subject? If you doubt differences can be heard I wonder what you are doing on a DIY forum. Presumably nothing anyone can say will change your mind and we are way off the topic.
Rob.
classd4sure said:So just for argumentative purposes if one were to do this hafler test with a crying baby or exhaust note... and compare the precision of doing it with an amp, I propose you use the very same microphone to measure the output of the amp at the speaker in a controlled environment 🙂 I'd expect the same db or two difference.
Don't mess with my analogies
The mic is not required to do the hafler test, but the speaker loading is necessary to test how speaker load will effect the difference.
Chris,
Thanks for the level-headed response.
"You have no memory of sound quality, what so ever, not even how the sound was yesterday".
I"'m pretty sure you do."
Just to be clear, I didn't make that statement, and I also disagree with it.
"I guess you're going on the basis that one amp doesn't sound very different than the next, especially if they measure extremely close."
Absolutely; IMO the crux of the whole amp debate (and cable, and other add-on doohickies) is based on measuring the same but sounding different.
"Honestly, I haven't tried to know!"
!!! No you tell me 🙂
"No two amps I discuss here measure the same for one thing (I'm guessing), "
Guessing?!
That's greatif you love soldering and exchanging components, but I don't at all.
And I'd go mad at the limitless possibilities of components to try.
If the differences are measurable and you knew what measurements indicated good sound, you'd save all that listening time, which for me is a real drudge ("review" listening, not pleasure listening.
Thanks for the level-headed response.
"You have no memory of sound quality, what so ever, not even how the sound was yesterday".
I"'m pretty sure you do."
Just to be clear, I didn't make that statement, and I also disagree with it.
"I guess you're going on the basis that one amp doesn't sound very different than the next, especially if they measure extremely close."
Absolutely; IMO the crux of the whole amp debate (and cable, and other add-on doohickies) is based on measuring the same but sounding different.
"Honestly, I haven't tried to know!"
!!! No you tell me 🙂
"No two amps I discuss here measure the same for one thing (I'm guessing), "
Guessing?!
That's greatif you love soldering and exchanging components, but I don't at all.
And I'd go mad at the limitless possibilities of components to try.
If the differences are measurable and you knew what measurements indicated good sound, you'd save all that listening time, which for me is a real drudge ("review" listening, not pleasure listening.
Seems like it would be required to do the same type of null test on say a car passing by? You'd have to record it, play it through an amp... would be hard to nullify it otherwise.
Hey, maybe this can serve as a spin off to a new and controversial thread:
http://www.next-power.net/next-tube/articles/Cheever/cheever.pdf#search="hafler null test"
Hey, maybe this can serve as a spin off to a new and controversial thread:
http://www.next-power.net/next-tube/articles/Cheever/cheever.pdf#search="hafler null test"
Noah,
"Guessing?!"
In this case I think A being different from B is a very safe guess. Isn't estimation part of engineering? In this case you just have to listen to verfiy.
"That's greatif you love soldering and exchanging components, but I don't at all."
Well, soldering is enjoyable. I like that. I don't do plug and pray though. Well researched educated guesses, then try, not just grab and go.
My popping off the signal earth lift resistors here which I did kind of fast, is a result of past experience, research, experimentation. Didn't have to listen long to know the result paid off.
In the same way, adding a few T-network caps to the supply, is easily going to do more good than harm. No magic here.
"And I'd go mad at the limitless possibilities of components to try." Yeah that does suck, because it is an area where measurements seem to fall short. You can relly on technical notes, reputation.... mentors.. guru's... monkey see monkey do. That at least narrows the possibilities. Most often the better parts have a sound technical excuse for being better.
"If the differences are measurable and you knew what measurements indicated good sound, you'd save all that listening time, which for me is a real drudge ("review" listening, not pleasure listening."
Yeah, but those are some big IF's, and you forgot about all the interractions!! In the end, you have to listen, there's no way around it.
"Guessing?!"
In this case I think A being different from B is a very safe guess. Isn't estimation part of engineering? In this case you just have to listen to verfiy.
"That's greatif you love soldering and exchanging components, but I don't at all."
Well, soldering is enjoyable. I like that. I don't do plug and pray though. Well researched educated guesses, then try, not just grab and go.
My popping off the signal earth lift resistors here which I did kind of fast, is a result of past experience, research, experimentation. Didn't have to listen long to know the result paid off.
In the same way, adding a few T-network caps to the supply, is easily going to do more good than harm. No magic here.
"And I'd go mad at the limitless possibilities of components to try." Yeah that does suck, because it is an area where measurements seem to fall short. You can relly on technical notes, reputation.... mentors.. guru's... monkey see monkey do. That at least narrows the possibilities. Most often the better parts have a sound technical excuse for being better.
"If the differences are measurable and you knew what measurements indicated good sound, you'd save all that listening time, which for me is a real drudge ("review" listening, not pleasure listening."
Yeah, but those are some big IF's, and you forgot about all the interractions!! In the end, you have to listen, there's no way around it.
Robert F said:
No - it's good fun trying to work out which of the three prevailing conversations each post belongs to.
Pointless, but fun.
If you don't like it, don't read it.
I just wonder when we'll get around to actually reading about the amp, rather than the sound of one hand clapping.
Robert, 19 out of 20! End of tiresome "dispute" .... forever! And all the poor thinking that goes with it!
You've already read about the amp as much as I can tell you right now. This here is all just "fill".
Now that the ball is rolling, I invite you to fight amongst yourselves, I'm going to go install those T-networks.
BTW, Lars seems MIA, have had no reply about feedback or bypass caps yet. Maybe nuforce got him?
Now that the ball is rolling, I invite you to fight amongst yourselves, I'm going to go install those T-networks.
BTW, Lars seems MIA, have had no reply about feedback or bypass caps yet. Maybe nuforce got him?
I can instantly identify the sound of one hand clapping.
I learned it as a kid when my mom slapped me on the side of the head to get my attention 🙂
I learned it as a kid when my mom slapped me on the side of the head to get my attention 🙂
classd4sure said:
If the schematic is studied more closely, one will find that the you can use any source you want. It is not necessary for you to do your own recording. If you do it out doors where vibration is an issue. Pleople will start saying that different vibration modes causes differences. Don't want to get the argument complicated.
But for the sake of measuring amps like the NCD, the same music source measuring the difference with a spectrum display software would be an interesting option.
Thanks for the article. I will read though it and see what can be understood.
PS.
Another interesting option using the null test is using the UCD as source and NCD as DUT, NCD as source and UCD as DUT, and UCD and NCD as their own source and their other channel as the DUT to see if the results would differ or not. Just something to hack into.😀
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