Lars, now if the sound quality is in no way dependent on whether a secondary transformer is used, why bother to make two psus, 4-wire and 6-wire? 😕
Anzgar: Thanks for this question. I think most people want to use as small power as possible, to keep the temperature to close to very cool. So they want to use the 6 wire version.
However you can't get an adequate 6 wire transformer everywhere, so some people are forced to settle for the 4 wire transformer, and of course i want to make life easy for those people too. Many people also have a transformer in the garage that is suitable for an amplifier project, and why not make it possible to use that?
Best regards
Lars
However you can't get an adequate 6 wire transformer everywhere, so some people are forced to settle for the 4 wire transformer, and of course i want to make life easy for those people too. Many people also have a transformer in the garage that is suitable for an amplifier project, and why not make it possible to use that?
Best regards
Lars
Lars, if you want to make life really easy for us why dont you order some suitable custom made transformers an sell them from your company.
I've contacted a swedish company to see what a custom made 400-500 VA 42-0-42-0-15 tranformer would cost but as I only need 2 transformers I guess it will be quite more expensive than if I ordered 50-100 transformers...
Maybe I could order more if some persons here has the same problem as I do... 😉
I've contacted a swedish company to see what a custom made 400-500 VA 42-0-42-0-15 tranformer would cost but as I only need 2 transformers I guess it will be quite more expensive than if I ordered 50-100 transformers...
Maybe I could order more if some persons here has the same problem as I do... 😉
Matsen: For delivery of custom made transformers for NewClassD.
First production takes about 1 month (several 100's) then
Shipment from the supplier (by ship - 1-1.5 tons) takes about 6 weeks then
Customs clearence takes a couple of weeks.
So ... 3 months
First production takes about 1 month (several 100's) then
Shipment from the supplier (by ship - 1-1.5 tons) takes about 6 weeks then
Customs clearence takes a couple of weeks.
So ... 3 months
In the thread "Zap Pulse 700 XE recieved today" , the other Lars (sign. nillerviborg) wrote about a manufacturer in Denmark, which sold toroid transformers at a cheap price. Even here in Sweden , such transformers are being made, but perhapes a little more expensive. 😉
So , are you only thinking of stuff made in Asia?
From Sweden or Holland, transformers can be transported by a truck.No custom clearence needed, normally!
If you order a first series of say 50-100, I think you can get them faster than your three months , Lars! Today , short "leedtimes" are of great importance, and you may very well order as little as 25 transformers, at a reasonable price, with the option of ordering say 50 more , at a still lower price🙂
So , are you only thinking of stuff made in Asia?
From Sweden or Holland, transformers can be transported by a truck.No custom clearence needed, normally!
If you order a first series of say 50-100, I think you can get them faster than your three months , Lars! Today , short "leedtimes" are of great importance, and you may very well order as little as 25 transformers, at a reasonable price, with the option of ordering say 50 more , at a still lower price🙂
The golden mean: Thank You for your suggestion.
I am fully aware of this possibility. I have during the last years tried out many of the scandinavian suppliers.
Sadly i must conclude that the quality is low, and the price is high.
Mechanical noise, overlapping wires etc. And also lead times of a month or so is normal.
In some special cases the quality is ok, but then the price is sky high.
The best Asian suppliers make a perfect quality with all applicable approvals, and at a favourable price. Only the shipping takes some time. Frankly i have never encountered a scandinavian transformer supplier, that could compete with my asian supplier.
A possibility is to buy a small 'fill-in' order from the scandinavian supplier. However you will end up with two different products. For example what happens when you go to your local supplier, and say: 'i want these colours of wire for the secondaries', and then with a long list of wire colours? They will say: No we usually only have these (completely different) colours. Unless you buy 1000 transformers, then we will get the right wire. But 1000 is a bit more than would be sensible to buy.
So now you need two different assembly instructions.
I would not abandon quality (or the best price) on the alter of fast time-to-market.
Best regards
Lars
I am fully aware of this possibility. I have during the last years tried out many of the scandinavian suppliers.
Sadly i must conclude that the quality is low, and the price is high.
Mechanical noise, overlapping wires etc. And also lead times of a month or so is normal.
In some special cases the quality is ok, but then the price is sky high.
The best Asian suppliers make a perfect quality with all applicable approvals, and at a favourable price. Only the shipping takes some time. Frankly i have never encountered a scandinavian transformer supplier, that could compete with my asian supplier.
A possibility is to buy a small 'fill-in' order from the scandinavian supplier. However you will end up with two different products. For example what happens when you go to your local supplier, and say: 'i want these colours of wire for the secondaries', and then with a long list of wire colours? They will say: No we usually only have these (completely different) colours. Unless you buy 1000 transformers, then we will get the right wire. But 1000 is a bit more than would be sensible to buy.
So now you need two different assembly instructions.
I would not abandon quality (or the best price) on the alter of fast time-to-market.
Best regards
Lars
Hi Lars!
For once , may I question what you write, and specially about transformer quality and let´s say suppliers from northen Europe?
I do not doubt your negative experiences, however I doubt that there are no good suppliers from countries like Germany, Poland,
Denmark, Norway, Sweden , Finland, Holland, etc!
Manufacturing of transformers is, to my knowledge, and today a highly automatic process, hence there isn´t too much to be fetched from low wages.
I read a lot of Hi-fi mags, and often there are pictures of amps(w, cd-players , pre-amps and other gear under review(with the lid lifted away), and very often by these pictures, I am able to identify the maker of the transformer(s). For some reason , they are often manufactured in Sweden. 😉 At least the text on the label says so!
Transformers for use with mains voltages, has to meet strict quality standards, and I strongly doubt, that a manufacturer of amps, e.g. in England, would continue to buy inferior goods!
The mark "Toroid" and other well-known (Swedish)manufacturers may today be parts of multinational companies, but why manufactur in Sweden if quality is so low , as you say?
No, not all of the manufacturing has moved to Asia, and there may very well be good resons for this!
And finally , on every transformer I have used in later years, there is a printed guide;text or schematic, how to connect them . I bought a used Plitron transformer more than a year ago, no paper bypacked, but no trouble at all. If someone can´t read what´s on the transformer, he or she have better not dealing with mains voltages.
Best regards
Håkan
For once , may I question what you write, and specially about transformer quality and let´s say suppliers from northen Europe?
I do not doubt your negative experiences, however I doubt that there are no good suppliers from countries like Germany, Poland,
Denmark, Norway, Sweden , Finland, Holland, etc!
Manufacturing of transformers is, to my knowledge, and today a highly automatic process, hence there isn´t too much to be fetched from low wages.
I read a lot of Hi-fi mags, and often there are pictures of amps(w, cd-players , pre-amps and other gear under review(with the lid lifted away), and very often by these pictures, I am able to identify the maker of the transformer(s). For some reason , they are often manufactured in Sweden. 😉 At least the text on the label says so!
Transformers for use with mains voltages, has to meet strict quality standards, and I strongly doubt, that a manufacturer of amps, e.g. in England, would continue to buy inferior goods!
The mark "Toroid" and other well-known (Swedish)manufacturers may today be parts of multinational companies, but why manufactur in Sweden if quality is so low , as you say?
No, not all of the manufacturing has moved to Asia, and there may very well be good resons for this!
And finally , on every transformer I have used in later years, there is a printed guide;text or schematic, how to connect them . I bought a used Plitron transformer more than a year ago, no paper bypacked, but no trouble at all. If someone can´t read what´s on the transformer, he or she have better not dealing with mains voltages.
Best regards
Håkan
but toroid ...
... states on the home page:
"Serietillverkning sker i våra fabriker i Sri Lanka och Indien. Här är vi sammanlagt 2000 medarbetare i två fabriker i Sri Lanka och en i Indien."
or
"Manufacturing is placed in Sri Lanka and Indien
with a total of 2000 employees."
So, not done in Sweden, and not totally without human labour.
/Erland
... states on the home page:
"Serietillverkning sker i våra fabriker i Sri Lanka och Indien. Här är vi sammanlagt 2000 medarbetare i två fabriker i Sri Lanka och en i Indien."
or
"Manufacturing is placed in Sri Lanka and Indien
with a total of 2000 employees."
So, not done in Sweden, and not totally without human labour.
/Erland
Lars Clausen said:
I got confused when u directed your answer to Anzgar...
😀
What options on the transformers will you offer?
And are you having more plans of more products/componenets as well? I dont want to put pressure on you, I'm just curious....
C'mon.. you know they're winding for food. If that's what good audio takes... 🙄
Get any non potted core and all you have to do is wrap a few extra windings around it..... voila!
Get any non potted core and all you have to do is wrap a few extra windings around it..... voila!
Transformer questions
Right! It would seem most of the power transformers are around 1/2 volt per turn, easily tested with a single turn connected to an RMS voltmeter. AC voltmeter is ok if the transformer is not loaded. If it is not loaded the voltage will be higher, 10% higher would be a good rule of thumb so you do have enough when it is really loaded.
Just buy a small spool of insulated 22ga hookup wire and have at it. Do try to spread the windings out equally and make the wires long enough to avoid further splices/connections. Do yourself a favor and do 2 separate windings side by side with the same number of turns and use 2 small bridge rectifiers and separate filter caps. Only connect the caps grounds at one point. Even better build it with enough extra voltage to be able to use quality regulators and only connect the grounds together at the point of load on the amp it's self. After you have the transformer windings done and tested ok, use some cloth tape to cover and protect the extra windings. I have done this in the past and it works very well. No ground loops and quiet!
Roger
Right! It would seem most of the power transformers are around 1/2 volt per turn, easily tested with a single turn connected to an RMS voltmeter. AC voltmeter is ok if the transformer is not loaded. If it is not loaded the voltage will be higher, 10% higher would be a good rule of thumb so you do have enough when it is really loaded.
Just buy a small spool of insulated 22ga hookup wire and have at it. Do try to spread the windings out equally and make the wires long enough to avoid further splices/connections. Do yourself a favor and do 2 separate windings side by side with the same number of turns and use 2 small bridge rectifiers and separate filter caps. Only connect the caps grounds at one point. Even better build it with enough extra voltage to be able to use quality regulators and only connect the grounds together at the point of load on the amp it's self. After you have the transformer windings done and tested ok, use some cloth tape to cover and protect the extra windings. I have done this in the past and it works very well. No ground loops and quiet!
Roger
I am sure the Chinese and the Indian factories have exactly the same kind of machines as the Scandinavians. But i am not very familiar with the processes in manufacturing toroids. Only the end result.
I do have a story about PCB assembly that might cast some ligt on why it's cheaper in the far east.
Not so long ago i was assembling some PCB's with maybe 200 different SMD components.
This process was done on the same machine here in Scandinavia, as would be used in say China. So you might think the price is the same, right? Wrong.
I followed the processs very closely, and it turns out the machine time for my 100.000 part insertions was something like 8 hours. But the setup time of the machine, purchasing of parts, stock control, programming of the smd machine, startup of the machine, mounting 7' rolls on it, orientating each part etc took a total of 40 man hours plus.
So 80% of time consumption or more is still manual labour, and is much cheaper in the far east. Not to mention that the companies there have a much higher commitment towards producing the goods well, and take pride in it. I must say many local scandinavian companies don't really care, for them a new order is more a disruption of their upcoming retirement. 😉 Maybe slightly exaggerated, but none the less ....
I do have a story about PCB assembly that might cast some ligt on why it's cheaper in the far east.
Not so long ago i was assembling some PCB's with maybe 200 different SMD components.
This process was done on the same machine here in Scandinavia, as would be used in say China. So you might think the price is the same, right? Wrong.
I followed the processs very closely, and it turns out the machine time for my 100.000 part insertions was something like 8 hours. But the setup time of the machine, purchasing of parts, stock control, programming of the smd machine, startup of the machine, mounting 7' rolls on it, orientating each part etc took a total of 40 man hours plus.
So 80% of time consumption or more is still manual labour, and is much cheaper in the far east. Not to mention that the companies there have a much higher commitment towards producing the goods well, and take pride in it. I must say many local scandinavian companies don't really care, for them a new order is more a disruption of their upcoming retirement. 😉 Maybe slightly exaggerated, but none the less ....
Lars,
I recommend you try in inquiry at: http://www.ae-europe.nl/
(see the email link).
This is the kind of manufacturer where you are welcome to walk in and say 'Hi'. They take great pride in their product which are of high quality are fairly priced, though to be honest, I don't have any idea what the asian companies can offer you. I have heard nothing but praise about this manufacturer, including from audio fanatics all over the world, US and Australia for example.
Based on my own, albeit limited, experience with them and more so on the spontanious feedback from others, I feel confident in advising you to contact then and see what you can do for you.
Though I live in the same country, I'm not affiliated with the company, don't personally know the owner or the employees and frankly couldn't care less where you buy you components. Just a friendly advice 🙂 Inquiries are cheap 😀
Cheers,
Hans.
I recommend you try in inquiry at: http://www.ae-europe.nl/
(see the email link).
This is the kind of manufacturer where you are welcome to walk in and say 'Hi'. They take great pride in their product which are of high quality are fairly priced, though to be honest, I don't have any idea what the asian companies can offer you. I have heard nothing but praise about this manufacturer, including from audio fanatics all over the world, US and Australia for example.
Based on my own, albeit limited, experience with them and more so on the spontanious feedback from others, I feel confident in advising you to contact then and see what you can do for you.
Though I live in the same country, I'm not affiliated with the company, don't personally know the owner or the employees and frankly couldn't care less where you buy you components. Just a friendly advice 🙂 Inquiries are cheap 😀
Cheers,
Hans.
I had some communications with Chris (classd4sure) today, and he had some problems with the prototype modules.
To be precise one of the SAL128RPM capacitors in the input stage power supply had shortened out. I have seen this one time before, but satisfied myself it was caused by a regulator malfunction.
Now that it happened again, i have decided not to use this type of capacitor in the production version of NCD1, or any other product for that matter.
I of course apologise towards Chris for this capacitor problem, that i should have foreseen. My mistake!
But anyway i believe by now Chris is up and running with some other capacitor in the input stage, and it will be interesting to see his next post 🙂
To be precise one of the SAL128RPM capacitors in the input stage power supply had shortened out. I have seen this one time before, but satisfied myself it was caused by a regulator malfunction.
Now that it happened again, i have decided not to use this type of capacitor in the production version of NCD1, or any other product for that matter.
I of course apologise towards Chris for this capacitor problem, that i should have foreseen. My mistake!
But anyway i believe by now Chris is up and running with some other capacitor in the input stage, and it will be interesting to see his next post 🙂
Uh huh, would be good for the sake of the speakers to use a cap that fails open circuit instead of shorted.
The result was 3Vdc on the output. I was kind of hoping I could fix it el nacho lazy style, without removing the modules at all. Strangely enough these darn caps... seem to have been "crimped" with wire cutters right at the base of the leads, so they snap off extremely easy.
The lead free PCB with gold plating has thus far proven to be hell to rework with my current tools.. I'd kill for a little solder braid right now.
Needless to say I took the modules out and am attacking it full force. It'll either be playing by morning or a smoking pile of rubble, so I reserve the "interesting next post" for the one after this.
Cheers,
Chris
The result was 3Vdc on the output. I was kind of hoping I could fix it el nacho lazy style, without removing the modules at all. Strangely enough these darn caps... seem to have been "crimped" with wire cutters right at the base of the leads, so they snap off extremely easy.
The lead free PCB with gold plating has thus far proven to be hell to rework with my current tools.. I'd kill for a little solder braid right now.
Needless to say I took the modules out and am attacking it full force. It'll either be playing by morning or a smoking pile of rubble, so I reserve the "interesting next post" for the one after this.
Cheers,
Chris
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