Lars Clausen said:
Thanks Lars🙂
I've got several popular diy amps here and still can't decide which one is my favourite
I'll start saving and see how your NCD modules compare, TBH I'm still in search for something that really stands outYeap it is going to happen soon. If all goes well I"ll have an initial crude test later today, or tomorrow at the latest.
Just about have everything I need gathered and ready to go in. Couple hours work today and that's it!
Just about have everything I need gathered and ready to go in. Couple hours work today and that's it!
There also a thing called group pressure or conformism.😉
In a well-known experiment, people were asked to judge a line on a blackboard. All but one were initiated, and told to exaggerate their estimations. Let´s say the lenght of the line was 5 feet, but people discussed it as being 8, 9 or ten feet.
The poor person who was "the outsider" clearly was being influenced by this in his/her own estimation.
Thus , it will be interasting to see , to which degree there will be consensus about the new amp. Of course, if there are unanimous verdicts, noting is wrong with this, but it is still possible that some people are being influenced by other peoples opinions.
By no means , such possible bias should not stop us from trying to assess the sound of an amp, or the the sound one or more speaker(s) produce(s) when driven by an amp in an acoustic environment.
In a well-known experiment, people were asked to judge a line on a blackboard. All but one were initiated, and told to exaggerate their estimations. Let´s say the lenght of the line was 5 feet, but people discussed it as being 8, 9 or ten feet.
The poor person who was "the outsider" clearly was being influenced by this in his/her own estimation.
Thus , it will be interasting to see , to which degree there will be consensus about the new amp. Of course, if there are unanimous verdicts, noting is wrong with this, but it is still possible that some people are being influenced by other peoples opinions.
By no means , such possible bias should not stop us from trying to assess the sound of an amp, or the the sound one or more speaker(s) produce(s) when driven by an amp in an acoustic environment.
OK, last post on this, I promise.
"I find all this "your mind fools you" listening voodoo a bunch of nonsense fueled by those who'd profit off of BSing reviews to market the voodoo products for which the adverts pay their bills!"
? You're intertwining two disparate groups - the voodoo marketers are the ones fooling minds, blind testing is what prevents it.
Maybe I just have a tin ear, but I've personally been unable to disinguish between an Adcom 555, Bedini 25/25 class A, Onkyo receiver, and super cheap Panasonic receiver, except for weaker bass in the latter.
Admittedly I have very little patience for this, but I listened to an acoustic recording and noted decay tails after drumstrokes etc.\
So when people start talking about hearing differences between caps and wires, color me skeptical.
Of course there's no reason for anyone else to care what color I am, but I'd still be interested to know if anyone here has proven they can hear these differences in unsighted testing.
Thanks
"I find all this "your mind fools you" listening voodoo a bunch of nonsense fueled by those who'd profit off of BSing reviews to market the voodoo products for which the adverts pay their bills!"
? You're intertwining two disparate groups - the voodoo marketers are the ones fooling minds, blind testing is what prevents it.
Maybe I just have a tin ear, but I've personally been unable to disinguish between an Adcom 555, Bedini 25/25 class A, Onkyo receiver, and super cheap Panasonic receiver, except for weaker bass in the latter.
Admittedly I have very little patience for this, but I listened to an acoustic recording and noted decay tails after drumstrokes etc.\
So when people start talking about hearing differences between caps and wires, color me skeptical.
Of course there's no reason for anyone else to care what color I am, but I'd still be interested to know if anyone here has proven they can hear these differences in unsighted testing.
Thanks
The way I see it ...
... Chris is doing us all a favour.
We may thrust the result or not,
we may base a decision on it or not,
we may like the methods or not,
but we should appreciate the effort.
If we don't like methods or thrust the results,
don't base decisions on it.
But complaining is a bit like not appreciating the effort.
just my two cents
Erland
... Chris is doing us all a favour.
We may thrust the result or not,
we may base a decision on it or not,
we may like the methods or not,
but we should appreciate the effort.
If we don't like methods or thrust the results,
don't base decisions on it.
But complaining is a bit like not appreciating the effort.
just my two cents
Erland
Nobody has said anything wrong yet, and noone is critizicing Chriss in any way
I mean, if we cannot have fun and discuss things like this while the test progress, what are we here fore then
I mean, if we cannot have fun and discuss things like this while the test progress, what are we here fore then
Hi,
Some great posts, and I agree with all of the above, except for you, Noah 🙂
First of all, there'll never be a last post on this (siiiiiiigh).
Secondly, maybe you've spent too much time around test engines? I don't know, and it isn't my goal at all to insult your hearing, but I can tell you this, I'm no golden ear... whatever that is, but I sure can discern differences in amplifiers and it really doesn't take blind testing to know.
Caps do sound different from one another.. different materials used.. different construction techniques... different parasitics.. there's no voodoo here.
I can give you example after example of how screamingly obvious these differences can be. Here's just one for you.
Do you want an average sounding, everyday, non analytical amp, with no air, where the symbols sound like a flat monotonic "rriiiiiiingggggggggg riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing"?
Wire it with FIM OCC el voodoo solide core wire then. Most likely any solide core would be just as bad. I got this junk though because I thought it had a teflon jacket... turned out it was some bastard mix of pvc nylon and teflon or whatever.. stuff melts like wax.
Bass was pretty much the same... if there's any difference it would take more careful testing to know. Everything lacked realness, it sounded like an amp. You don't hear the pick hit the string, fingers sliding over the frets or the sticks hitting the skins.... you hear the string, the skin.. you'd never call it bad because probably 98% of all amps sound that same way.
Now replace all that junk with better wire... something with better high frequency characteristics... something like litz.
All of a sudden the symbols don't "TZZZZzzzzzzz" anymore, they "PPSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhh", you actually hear the pick on the string and the string itself sounds perfectly natural... realistic, you hear the sticks hit the skins. The sound of a crowd clapping went from sounding like a bunch of people running down a tile floor in their winter boots to actual being in the middle of the crowd clapping. The whole thing is now so analytical and realistic that it will actually have you looking over your shoulder to see where that voice or sound came from, but surprise.... it's just a part of the recording you probably never heard before... or just didn't notice because it was never so realistic.
That's just the difference you get for a simple change in wire!! Is it imagined? No matter how long I listened to the solide core wire it never took on that kind of life, air, realism, my brain never told me it was there when it wasn't... and I can promise you it's the kind of undeniable difference that slaps you right across the face, repeatedly and consistantly.
Now maybe if you're comparing commercial junk with other commercial junk and on different days with different sources.... you'll only get 1/100th of the full impression. Maybe just good for a feeling of "like/dislike" and not enough info to be able to narrow down any one thing.
However if you have amp A and amp B and can listen to a few songs you've heard a thousand times that same day... believe me you're going to know alot more.
That's all I can tell ya. Oh, the blind testing is fueled by the voodoo guys because they claim to hear differences just from the sun having gone down... so in my view, they're the cause for the need for that sort of thing. Personally, I don't need them, or the blind tests.
Some great posts, and I agree with all of the above, except for you, Noah 🙂
First of all, there'll never be a last post on this (siiiiiiigh).
Secondly, maybe you've spent too much time around test engines? I don't know, and it isn't my goal at all to insult your hearing, but I can tell you this, I'm no golden ear... whatever that is, but I sure can discern differences in amplifiers and it really doesn't take blind testing to know.
Caps do sound different from one another.. different materials used.. different construction techniques... different parasitics.. there's no voodoo here.
I can give you example after example of how screamingly obvious these differences can be. Here's just one for you.
Do you want an average sounding, everyday, non analytical amp, with no air, where the symbols sound like a flat monotonic "rriiiiiiingggggggggg riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing"?
Wire it with FIM OCC el voodoo solide core wire then. Most likely any solide core would be just as bad. I got this junk though because I thought it had a teflon jacket... turned out it was some bastard mix of pvc nylon and teflon or whatever.. stuff melts like wax.
Bass was pretty much the same... if there's any difference it would take more careful testing to know. Everything lacked realness, it sounded like an amp. You don't hear the pick hit the string, fingers sliding over the frets or the sticks hitting the skins.... you hear the string, the skin.. you'd never call it bad because probably 98% of all amps sound that same way.
Now replace all that junk with better wire... something with better high frequency characteristics... something like litz.
All of a sudden the symbols don't "TZZZZzzzzzzz" anymore, they "PPSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhh", you actually hear the pick on the string and the string itself sounds perfectly natural... realistic, you hear the sticks hit the skins. The sound of a crowd clapping went from sounding like a bunch of people running down a tile floor in their winter boots to actual being in the middle of the crowd clapping. The whole thing is now so analytical and realistic that it will actually have you looking over your shoulder to see where that voice or sound came from, but surprise.... it's just a part of the recording you probably never heard before... or just didn't notice because it was never so realistic.
That's just the difference you get for a simple change in wire!! Is it imagined? No matter how long I listened to the solide core wire it never took on that kind of life, air, realism, my brain never told me it was there when it wasn't... and I can promise you it's the kind of undeniable difference that slaps you right across the face, repeatedly and consistantly.
Now maybe if you're comparing commercial junk with other commercial junk and on different days with different sources.... you'll only get 1/100th of the full impression. Maybe just good for a feeling of "like/dislike" and not enough info to be able to narrow down any one thing.
However if you have amp A and amp B and can listen to a few songs you've heard a thousand times that same day... believe me you're going to know alot more.
That's all I can tell ya. Oh, the blind testing is fueled by the voodoo guys because they claim to hear differences just from the sun having gone down... so in my view, they're the cause for the need for that sort of thing. Personally, I don't need them, or the blind tests.
Chris,
"First of all, there'll never be a last post on this (siiiiiiigh)."
Yep, only one post later and I'm breaking my promise.
Two things:
"All of a sudden the symbols don't "TZZZZzzzzzzz" anymore, they "PPSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhh", you actually hear the pick on the string and the string itself sounds perfectly natural... realistic, you hear the sticks hit the skins. "
Have you ever wondered why it is that replacing only half of the wire (what's in your equipment) with good stuff is enough to fix the sound?
What about the wiring in your source equipment (serious question)?
What about all the crappy wire in the recording and mastering equipment.
"Oh, the blind testing is fueled by the voodoo guys because they claim to hear differences just from the sun having gone down..."
Sorry Chris, this makes no sense to me at all - blind testing would expose the voodoo in seconds.
"First of all, there'll never be a last post on this (siiiiiiigh)."
Yep, only one post later and I'm breaking my promise.
Two things:
"All of a sudden the symbols don't "TZZZZzzzzzzz" anymore, they "PPSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhh", you actually hear the pick on the string and the string itself sounds perfectly natural... realistic, you hear the sticks hit the skins. "
Have you ever wondered why it is that replacing only half of the wire (what's in your equipment) with good stuff is enough to fix the sound?
What about the wiring in your source equipment (serious question)?
What about all the crappy wire in the recording and mastering equipment.
"Oh, the blind testing is fueled by the voodoo guys because they claim to hear differences just from the sun having gone down..."
Sorry Chris, this makes no sense to me at all - blind testing would expose the voodoo in seconds.
"Have you ever wondered why it is that replacing only half of the wire (what's in your equipment) with good stuff is enough to fix the sound?"
Wiring it in such a way exposes every flaw they make, no matter how small. As wired previously, much of it will go ignored. So you are left with the choice, do you want a revealing, realistic, as "true to the source" an amp as possible, even if it makes 98% of your music sound "bad"... or would you rather an amp that masks all those flaws under some sort of veil?
Probably the recording guys are aware of the kind of junk people have to listen to most often and know they can get away with alot because of it, but I'm not about to build amps that cater to the Ipod sound!
"Sorry Chris, this makes no sense to me at all - blind testing would expose the voodoo in seconds."
I'll try and explain this again. If there were no voodoo, there would be no need for blind tests, therefore, the need for the blind test is realized by the voodoo, and those who choose to promote it. You see? If you didn't have crooks claiming to be golden ears (a word they likely invented themselves) and selling themselves as impartial... honest reviewers (could not be further from the truth since they'd sell you audio grade cement if they could make a dime off it).. then you wouldn't need blind testing to try and figure out the truth ..you could take people's opinions more readily without having to be convinced. That's not the world we live in though. There's always someone out to get us and we have to second guess everything and everyone.
So you should know I'm not being paid for this. I'm going to describe how it sounds to me, maybe I"ll do it without even telling you whether or not I liked it. What's the difference, it doesn't matter to me.
Wiring it in such a way exposes every flaw they make, no matter how small. As wired previously, much of it will go ignored. So you are left with the choice, do you want a revealing, realistic, as "true to the source" an amp as possible, even if it makes 98% of your music sound "bad"... or would you rather an amp that masks all those flaws under some sort of veil?
Probably the recording guys are aware of the kind of junk people have to listen to most often and know they can get away with alot because of it, but I'm not about to build amps that cater to the Ipod sound!
"Sorry Chris, this makes no sense to me at all - blind testing would expose the voodoo in seconds."
I'll try and explain this again. If there were no voodoo, there would be no need for blind tests, therefore, the need for the blind test is realized by the voodoo, and those who choose to promote it. You see? If you didn't have crooks claiming to be golden ears (a word they likely invented themselves) and selling themselves as impartial... honest reviewers (could not be further from the truth since they'd sell you audio grade cement if they could make a dime off it).. then you wouldn't need blind testing to try and figure out the truth ..you could take people's opinions more readily without having to be convinced. That's not the world we live in though. There's always someone out to get us and we have to second guess everything and everyone.
So you should know I'm not being paid for this. I'm going to describe how it sounds to me, maybe I"ll do it without even telling you whether or not I liked it. What's the difference, it doesn't matter to me.
Some of the responses here lead me to believe that maybe I didn't understand "blind testing" - I am following the meaning of "Double Blind Testing"
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-blind_test
There's no supernatural effect in it. Just like Noah states - just the opposite.
I use tone controls, and it may be appropriate to use them in a blind test if say one amp out of the box has emphasized bass over another. Just like in a medical test you need to make them taste, smell, look the same.
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-blind_test
There's no supernatural effect in it. Just like Noah states - just the opposite.
I use tone controls, and it may be appropriate to use them in a blind test if say one amp out of the box has emphasized bass over another. Just like in a medical test you need to make them taste, smell, look the same.
Hi Raintalk,
I never said tone controls were a bad thing or made fun of you for using them....
But you see I'm always trying to build the perfect amplifier.... by listening and testing and changing parts/things around.. there's alot of audible differences to be found.
You really can't taint your listening /evaluating with tone controls when it comes to that, but you know, there are alot of people who automatically set the "bass" to said degree and the "treble" to another because they think that's the "number" it needs to be on for them to like it.... maybe for them all amps do sound the same? Beats me.
I never said tone controls were a bad thing or made fun of you for using them....
But you see I'm always trying to build the perfect amplifier.... by listening and testing and changing parts/things around.. there's alot of audible differences to be found.
You really can't taint your listening /evaluating with tone controls when it comes to that, but you know, there are alot of people who automatically set the "bass" to said degree and the "treble" to another because they think that's the "number" it needs to be on for them to like it.... maybe for them all amps do sound the same? Beats me.
Chris,
"If there were no voodoo, there would be no need for blind tests, therefore, the need for the blind test is realized by the voodoo, and those who choose to promote it. You see?"
Sorry, no.
Blind testing is also needed to keep honest people from deceiving themselves.
The voodoo equipment sellers and golden ear testers always refuse to do blind testing, and in every test done by others that I've seen they failed to demonstrate that they could hear the differences that they claimed they could.
So let's leave them aside.
Or maybe not. NI truly don't mean to be offensive, but from my perspective, I don't see the difference between you and Stereophile reviewers who test amps.
"If there were no voodoo, there would be no need for blind tests, therefore, the need for the blind test is realized by the voodoo, and those who choose to promote it. You see?"
Sorry, no.
Blind testing is also needed to keep honest people from deceiving themselves.
The voodoo equipment sellers and golden ear testers always refuse to do blind testing, and in every test done by others that I've seen they failed to demonstrate that they could hear the differences that they claimed they could.
So let's leave them aside.
Or maybe not. NI truly don't mean to be offensive, but from my perspective, I don't see the difference between you and Stereophile reviewers who test amps.
Now that can only be taken offensively.
What if I told you I set up a double blind test and got others to validate the claim.... even described a method for having done it that meets with your expectations. You'd probably buy it then right... hook like and sinker?
No doubt in my mind, the stereophile guys live for exactly that.
Anyway, I would be willing to take a blind test, but I'm not willing to waste my time setting one up just to satisfy your doubts. Take it or leave it, ya know?
"Now that can only be taken offensively."
I'm sorry about that; it sounds like you took offense at my equating you and them, all I meant was that in either case I'm faced with similar claims, in both cases unsubstantiated by testing.
"What if I told you I set up a double blind test and got others to validate the claim.... even described a method for having done it that meets with your expectations. You'd probably buy it then right... hook like and sinker?"
Yes, I would, unless "hook like and sinker" means you intentionally designed flaws into the test to thwart it.
I'm sorry about that; it sounds like you took offense at my equating you and them, all I meant was that in either case I'm faced with similar claims, in both cases unsubstantiated by testing.
"What if I told you I set up a double blind test and got others to validate the claim.... even described a method for having done it that meets with your expectations. You'd probably buy it then right... hook like and sinker?"
Yes, I would, unless "hook like and sinker" means you intentionally designed flaws into the test to thwart it.
noah katz said:
I accept that and I also understand your point of view. Look up a few Marshall Nack reviews though and you'll see why I've no choice but to have taken that offensively 🙂
If you listen objectively and make it a point to second guess yourself, and, aren't looking for things that aren't there.. you''ll be alot less apt to fooling yourself. Worst case though, get a second opinion or two to keep you in check... that's always worked for me.
When I do get a second opinion I don't tell people what I think I hear... that's as good a blind test as anything right? I'm often impressed in that their comments virtually always match my own. This is why I'm not partial of the "need" for double blind testing.. or thinking that I fool myself all of the time.
As per the hook line and sinker thing... why would you be inclined to believe that I even did the test as I claimed.... I probably just made it all up to convince you.... sad to see it worked so easily. Yep, the audio industry thrives on this stuff. I try to stay as honest as possible, especially with myself. 🙂
Chris,
"If you listen objectively..."
That's a contradiction in terms. Hearing is no more objective than tasting or smelling, where the best science can do is devise repeatable tests. Objectivivity has to be measured.
"When I do get a second opinion I don't tell people what I think I hear... that's as good a blind test as anything right?"
Nope, only if they're not aware of what piece of equipment they're listening to.
"As per the hook line and sinker thing... why would you be inclined to believe that I even did the test as I claimed.... I probably just made it all up to convince you.... sad to see it worked so easily."
I'd be convinced only that *you* heard the difference.
It would only be enough for me to make the effort to see if *I* could hear the difference, which at this point I'm not.
Sorry, but what I see here are a lot of extremely bright and knowledgeable people, but who have just as much reason (though a more noble one) to deceive themselves as do reviewers in the industry, and just as susceptible to the known psychological pitfalls of audio perception as anyone.
There's not much reason for you to give a damn what I think, but why not settle the debate and take home some cash from that $10K amplifier challenge, which I believe remains unclaimed?
"If you listen objectively..."
That's a contradiction in terms. Hearing is no more objective than tasting or smelling, where the best science can do is devise repeatable tests. Objectivivity has to be measured.
"When I do get a second opinion I don't tell people what I think I hear... that's as good a blind test as anything right?"
Nope, only if they're not aware of what piece of equipment they're listening to.
"As per the hook line and sinker thing... why would you be inclined to believe that I even did the test as I claimed.... I probably just made it all up to convince you.... sad to see it worked so easily."
I'd be convinced only that *you* heard the difference.
It would only be enough for me to make the effort to see if *I* could hear the difference, which at this point I'm not.
Sorry, but what I see here are a lot of extremely bright and knowledgeable people, but who have just as much reason (though a more noble one) to deceive themselves as do reviewers in the industry, and just as susceptible to the known psychological pitfalls of audio perception as anyone.
There's not much reason for you to give a damn what I think, but why not settle the debate and take home some cash from that $10K amplifier challenge, which I believe remains unclaimed?
Good points!
Chris,
I agree with most all you say, particularly to compare notes only after the listening is done. These quick listening sessions can be useful when listening to rather gross differences but you can easily can be misled due to temporary factors like your mood etc. Even time of day can have an effect due to the changes to your AC power. I find the only way to be completely sure is to live with it for awhile, this does work but takes time. First impressions can and do mislead. How many times have you connected something up that seemed better only to be disappointed in the long term? This is very common and one of the reasons for the “component of the month club”. Enough said!
Roger
Chris,
I agree with most all you say, particularly to compare notes only after the listening is done. These quick listening sessions can be useful when listening to rather gross differences but you can easily can be misled due to temporary factors like your mood etc. Even time of day can have an effect due to the changes to your AC power. I find the only way to be completely sure is to live with it for awhile, this does work but takes time. First impressions can and do mislead. How many times have you connected something up that seemed better only to be disappointed in the long term? This is very common and one of the reasons for the “component of the month club”. Enough said!
Roger
I quite agree with Chris on reviews. I have had many people listen to some speakers I designed, and whether good or bad, they provided honest opinions that has helped me sort out what I was missing in my own listening. Blind tests was not necessary, but the way the reviewer explained what he though was "funny" or "not quite right" is very important for to help pinpoint technical problems and solutions.
For example, when I listen to piano recordings, the sound relationship from the strike of the key and the following reverberation makes a significant difference. Continuity of piano sound from the high keys to the low keys also make a difference.
Listening to cymbals and hats are quite can reveal similar problems from the strike to the reverberation.
Then there is also a difference between mixture of reverberation from the instrument and the original room response plus your room response. If you are in a fairly dead room, you can distinguish between the reverberation direct from the instrument or from the recording room.
I personally had missed many things because in the beginning, the design was way off in tone. Once people started pinpointing little things they hear, things took off quite well.
I would use blind testing to prove a specific point, such as blind testing between a system and a live performer, or gathering information on preferences of sound if the goal was to just statisfy the majority of customers. But if I really wanted an opinion about a specific product, I would take a direct opinion, if the opinion is usefull, then I know the reviewer is credible, if not, well, just find more reviewers.
For example, when I listen to piano recordings, the sound relationship from the strike of the key and the following reverberation makes a significant difference. Continuity of piano sound from the high keys to the low keys also make a difference.
Listening to cymbals and hats are quite can reveal similar problems from the strike to the reverberation.
Then there is also a difference between mixture of reverberation from the instrument and the original room response plus your room response. If you are in a fairly dead room, you can distinguish between the reverberation direct from the instrument or from the recording room.
I personally had missed many things because in the beginning, the design was way off in tone. Once people started pinpointing little things they hear, things took off quite well.
I would use blind testing to prove a specific point, such as blind testing between a system and a live performer, or gathering information on preferences of sound if the goal was to just statisfy the majority of customers. But if I really wanted an opinion about a specific product, I would take a direct opinion, if the opinion is usefull, then I know the reviewer is credible, if not, well, just find more reviewers.
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