Listening tests
I really didn't want to get into this but I will throw my 2 cents worth in the pot.
The only way to be sure is to start with a reference system you have lived with for some time. There should be no recent changes. Plug in the new equipment and ignore it for a day or so as it settles in. Listen to it often for at least a week till it becomes your new reference. Note your basic feelings about the system now. Is it more enjoyable for long listening periods? Are you retrieving more information from your source? Etc. After you are comfortable with this new configuration swap back in the old piece. The differences will hit you in the face!
I have found this to be a very time consuming process but quite effective. It does leave very little doubt as an A/B can or worse yet as a blind A/B can.
Roger
I really didn't want to get into this but I will throw my 2 cents worth in the pot.
The only way to be sure is to start with a reference system you have lived with for some time. There should be no recent changes. Plug in the new equipment and ignore it for a day or so as it settles in. Listen to it often for at least a week till it becomes your new reference. Note your basic feelings about the system now. Is it more enjoyable for long listening periods? Are you retrieving more information from your source? Etc. After you are comfortable with this new configuration swap back in the old piece. The differences will hit you in the face!
I have found this to be a very time consuming process but quite effective. It does leave very little doubt as an A/B can or worse yet as a blind A/B can.
Roger
However, we have to admitt we are on deep water😉
If our system has a inbuilt fault to it , and the new gear,eg. cables subtract this fault? Are the new cables really better?
Sad to say it, but it´s hard to optimaze a complex system....
And this system involves your hearing , mood and expectations.
Room acoustics, airborn garbage , and a lot of other things we are only partly able to control. Some days, my system sounds terrible, and I´m unable to understand why.
If our system has a inbuilt fault to it , and the new gear,eg. cables subtract this fault? Are the new cables really better?
Sad to say it, but it´s hard to optimaze a complex system....
And this system involves your hearing , mood and expectations.
Room acoustics, airborn garbage , and a lot of other things we are only partly able to control. Some days, my system sounds terrible, and I´m unable to understand why.
Re: Listening tests
Sounds very boring to me. I hear any differenses in a matter of seconds.Then I might need longer time to give words to the differencies I hear and bring them to the awareness of others.
sx881663 said:
Sounds very boring to me. I hear any differenses in a matter of seconds.Then I might need longer time to give words to the differencies I hear and bring them to the awareness of others.
Re: Re: Listening tests
EEEeeeeasy boy. Seconds? no.
It takes a good listening session with a few good songs of different varieties that you've been using to test with forever. Certain things are extremely obvious, other little nuances take time to shine through, or not.
As Lars suggested an hour is fair.
Anzgar said:
Sounds very boring to me. I hear any differenses in a matter of seconds.Then I might need longer time to give words to the differencies I hear and bring them to the awareness of others.
EEEeeeeasy boy. Seconds? no.
It takes a good listening session with a few good songs of different varieties that you've been using to test with forever. Certain things are extremely obvious, other little nuances take time to shine through, or not.
As Lars suggested an hour is fair.
Would you believe I don't have any RCA connectors? So I dug out a pair of "Ultralink" patch cords, I'll hack those suckers up, the connectors on them are only partially oxidized, so it's a pretty good find.
There's also no switch, so I have this broken reading lamp... you know the kind that just clamps to a headboard.. with the thumb wheel switch? Sssssnip! Pretty slick, I know.
So yeah, all I need now is a little tape and some glue.
There's also no switch, so I have this broken reading lamp... you know the kind that just clamps to a headboard.. with the thumb wheel switch? Sssssnip! Pretty slick, I know.
So yeah, all I need now is a little tape and some glue.
"Noah, you're assuming blind testing is effective for the types of differences people say they hear. That assumption, like every assumption, should be open to question, no?"
Absolutely.
But I don't see how any test can be valid that's not blind, otherwise it's subject to our widely documented susceptibility to psychological factors.
That said, I don't think rapid-fire A/B testing is the way to go about it, either. I believe in the cumulative effect of subtle differences, that may take time to pinpoint.
I'de have no problem with listening for days or weeks between equipment changes, as long as the listener doesn't know which piece he's listening to.
Of course this is quite impractical.
"Sounds very boring to me. I hear any differences in a matter of seconds."
So you think, as have legions before you. Hve you put it to the test?
Not meaning to be antagonistic, just curious.
Anyway, didn't mean to rehash the whole amp debate again, I'm just disappointed that the engineering rigor doesn't carry over to the audibility side.
Absolutely.
But I don't see how any test can be valid that's not blind, otherwise it's subject to our widely documented susceptibility to psychological factors.
That said, I don't think rapid-fire A/B testing is the way to go about it, either. I believe in the cumulative effect of subtle differences, that may take time to pinpoint.
I'de have no problem with listening for days or weeks between equipment changes, as long as the listener doesn't know which piece he's listening to.
Of course this is quite impractical.
"Sounds very boring to me. I hear any differences in a matter of seconds."
So you think, as have legions before you. Hve you put it to the test?
Not meaning to be antagonistic, just curious.
Anyway, didn't mean to rehash the whole amp debate again, I'm just disappointed that the engineering rigor doesn't carry over to the audibility side.
I recently had an experience that tells me that you cannot recall a specific sound, as much as you think
I had this Technichs tuner with which I was very pleased
Then one day a friend offered me a nice Luxman tuner
I listened to it and thought, wow! - VERY good
Then I began to hear little things, I was not so sure it actually was better, and thought the Technichs might be better
I listened to the Technichs again, - oh boy, was I in fore a big surprice
I was surpriced that I had liked it at all, and in comparison with the Luxman it sounded like ****
But the Technichs had been good enough to give me some enjoyable hours with nice music
So what I could recall was some good feelings with music, and not the sound it self
I had this Technichs tuner with which I was very pleased
Then one day a friend offered me a nice Luxman tuner
I listened to it and thought, wow! - VERY good
Then I began to hear little things, I was not so sure it actually was better, and thought the Technichs might be better
I listened to the Technichs again, - oh boy, was I in fore a big surprice
I was surpriced that I had liked it at all, and in comparison with the Luxman it sounded like ****
But the Technichs had been good enough to give me some enjoyable hours with nice music
So what I could recall was some good feelings with music, and not the sound it self
Why is everyone seemingly so darn polar on the issue? Come join me in the middle ground there's all kinds of room.
If you swap mufflers on your car to one that'll offer less restriction to airflow, do you need to drive around blind folded to know it sounds different? Nahhh, it's obviously different isn't it.
If the previous muffler represented a bottleneck to airflow, do you need averaged quarter mile times to know it made a difference, or can't you just tell by the front end jumping up faster and harder than ever and being thrown back in your seat like never before? Would a gained thousand RPM on the top end be believable by ear alone... what if your tach was stuck at 2k??
I find all this "your mind fools you" listening voodoo a bunch of nonsense fueled by those who'd profit off of BSing reviews to market the voodoo products for which the adverts pay their bills!
They've raised an entire generation of believers..
Some people are better listeners than others, most people just "hear" and don't "listen".. if it's your hobby /what you do and you can do so objectively there's not going to be any problems.
I'll say this one finale time though, debate aside, this is an evaluation, not a comparison.
Subjectively speaking, I've made my reference system extremely analytical, there's isn't a single flaw in the source that won't shine through. Maybe Lars' amp is of a different nature.. a little smoother, more relaxed.. maybe euphonic.. blind or not 9 out of 10 are likely to prefer the later... does that mean it's better? Did they imagine it? Would their brain's fool them into thinking the more analytic amp is cleaner or the more relaxed one is more analytic? Sound rediculous yet? Most people are too audio stupid to know the difference, in essence, they're listening blind already.
If you swap mufflers on your car to one that'll offer less restriction to airflow, do you need to drive around blind folded to know it sounds different? Nahhh, it's obviously different isn't it.
If the previous muffler represented a bottleneck to airflow, do you need averaged quarter mile times to know it made a difference, or can't you just tell by the front end jumping up faster and harder than ever and being thrown back in your seat like never before? Would a gained thousand RPM on the top end be believable by ear alone... what if your tach was stuck at 2k??
I find all this "your mind fools you" listening voodoo a bunch of nonsense fueled by those who'd profit off of BSing reviews to market the voodoo products for which the adverts pay their bills!
They've raised an entire generation of believers..
Some people are better listeners than others, most people just "hear" and don't "listen".. if it's your hobby /what you do and you can do so objectively there's not going to be any problems.
I'll say this one finale time though, debate aside, this is an evaluation, not a comparison.
Subjectively speaking, I've made my reference system extremely analytical, there's isn't a single flaw in the source that won't shine through. Maybe Lars' amp is of a different nature.. a little smoother, more relaxed.. maybe euphonic.. blind or not 9 out of 10 are likely to prefer the later... does that mean it's better? Did they imagine it? Would their brain's fool them into thinking the more analytic amp is cleaner or the more relaxed one is more analytic? Sound rediculous yet? Most people are too audio stupid to know the difference, in essence, they're listening blind already.
I think blind tests are good for the following conditions:
1. When you don't know whether the reviewers have any preferences or not.
2. When you don't know if the reviewers listen to live performances or not.
3. When you just want to show how credible the review is.
I think the best reviewers know that they are either comparing with what they have experienced in live performances or they are just camparing against what there owm preferences are.
So we should really just wait for whatever comes out.
1. When you don't know whether the reviewers have any preferences or not.
2. When you don't know if the reviewers listen to live performances or not.
3. When you just want to show how credible the review is.
I think the best reviewers know that they are either comparing with what they have experienced in live performances or they are just camparing against what there owm preferences are.
So we should really just wait for whatever comes out.
The only music that gives any chance of objective impression of sound quality is - acoustic and classical music
I'm sure there are some places where jazz is not amplified. Piano bar usually don't amplify the instruments. Vocals are most likely to be amplified in these places.
Finally i got the reclaims form from UPS, so hopefully i didn't lose too much money in that warehouse in Italy.
Thanks to Mr. Murphy this only seems to happen when it's really important to keep a production on schedule.
The new production is right on target, and this time we make sure the shipment is properly insured, so it will not disappear.
Thanks to Mr. Murphy this only seems to happen when it's really important to keep a production on schedule.
The new production is right on target, and this time we make sure the shipment is properly insured, so it will not disappear.
Attachments
For me the best way to compare amps. is by switching(relay) the speaker ouputs from the 2 poweramps.
The same source is used for both of them.
Often there is an instant difference and you'll hear that. No fooling around.
The same source is used for both of them.
Often there is an instant difference and you'll hear that. No fooling around.
Looks like a typical review headed our way. Don't forget "warmth" 😀
I'm with Noah and also disappointed, but I'll take what I can get at this stage.
IMHO - Amp technology in general is so advanced that people or I really can't hear a difference and tone controls or other signal processing there to adjust the sound to your liking.
I'd still be curious to see what a blind test resulted in. I'd also be curious to see what happens and rated extremes - Like actually crank it in a stadium for a few hours. Or what happens when you actually clip it.
Just tossing in my 2 hapennies - Somewhere in the middle.
raintalk said:
Typical review? Obviously there's a small crowd here that isn't trying to understand what I'm saying and rather are blinded by their own preconceptions /expectations of things..... now isn't that interesting. Is it any wonder they're the same advocating blind testing... 🙄
Guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it pull its head out of its ***.
BTW... I don't use tone controls, figure that out.
Don't worry about it Chris, people will always have their own opinions how a listening test should be done🙂
Its either going to be close or one is much better than the other, all I'm bothered about is reading your opinion how good it sounds, how well it drives your speakers, can you listen to it for long periods without getting tired of it, what don't you like about it etc.
Its either going to be close or one is much better than the other, all I'm bothered about is reading your opinion how good it sounds, how well it drives your speakers, can you listen to it for long periods without getting tired of it, what don't you like about it etc.
Guys easy now 🙂
We all have our own way of testing equipment, and might not agree with other peoples choices.
My own way is simply use the amplifier in the normal everyday environment, some impressions will come immediately, but after 14 days you have a general feeling for or against the amplifier.
At least you know exactly where you need change or modification, if any.
In 2-3 months you will see many people in this thread publishing their experiences with the NCD, and from that you might gather the properties that are of biggest interest for you.
But sooner than that other testers will most probably also publish their sound experience here. So with a little patience, it's all going to happen here very soon 🙂
All the best
[Edit] T. You said it, clearer than me 😀
We all have our own way of testing equipment, and might not agree with other peoples choices.
My own way is simply use the amplifier in the normal everyday environment, some impressions will come immediately, but after 14 days you have a general feeling for or against the amplifier.
At least you know exactly where you need change or modification, if any.
In 2-3 months you will see many people in this thread publishing their experiences with the NCD, and from that you might gather the properties that are of biggest interest for you.
But sooner than that other testers will most probably also publish their sound experience here. So with a little patience, it's all going to happen here very soon 🙂
All the best
[Edit] T. You said it, clearer than me 😀
- Status
- Not open for further replies.