Hi,
The very opinionated successfully wrongly leading the blind.
Fair enough it might work out if your lucky, likely it won't.
rgds, sreten.
The very opinionated successfully wrongly leading the blind.
Fair enough it might work out if your lucky, likely it won't.
rgds, sreten.
Tony that may be because so much of it isn't actually technical but psycho-acoustic and will take in all the listening/room factors/personal hearing loss and mood ALL at once. I respect Sreten for his technical expertise but being a beginner is hard ( after 20 years at this I am still a beginner No degree and tin ears) but I belong to the other DIY camp the one that says " Just havago" build it than make the next one better. Can't comment on a speaker I haven't made or heard but I was under the impression the "Overnight Sensations" were a good bang for buck design
All opinions are welcome. Something else to think about and interfere with my sleep. Thanks
Tony
Hi,
I'm not against "having a go" as such. However just using a MP3 file
of 1/3 octave pink noise bands from a portable player connected
to a raw driver will tell you lots about the midrange of a driver.
Dips and peaks (or not as the case maybe) are easy to hear.
e.g. this small driver is a nightmare :
And no simple approach will ever work well. Given its a budget
driver and advanced x/o'ers are unlikely its a poor driver choice
given the sort of very budget tweeter you'd likely want to use.
rgds, sreten.
I'm not against "having a go" as such. However just using a MP3 file
of 1/3 octave pink noise bands from a portable player connected
to a raw driver will tell you lots about the midrange of a driver.
Dips and peaks (or not as the case maybe) are easy to hear.
e.g. this small driver is a nightmare :
And no simple approach will ever work well. Given its a budget
driver and advanced x/o'ers are unlikely its a poor driver choice
given the sort of very budget tweeter you'd likely want to use.
rgds, sreten.
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Hmmm, I still run XP so I have not had that problem. There are several other box designers out there. Jeff Bagly was nice enough to do one in Excel. Siegfried Linkwitz also has some Excel programs. I have a copy of Winspeak but I have not played with it. I have Win 8.1 on my laptop, so I'll play with it there tonight.
In defense of some of the other experienced folks out there, the list of beginners is a mile long. It is tough to go over it all over again when so much is already in the forums. I to am a beginner after 35 years and I am an engineer to boot.
It is a great hobby as one of the final steps is long sessions listening to all your music again to make decisions on final voicing in your room. This usually is not only enjoyable for the music, but for the nice malt beverage of choice, good cheese...
Not having any issue with WinISD on 8.1. Version .44 I never had Vista, so I can't comment further on that problem.
re post 44: Gasp! Poster child for paying a bit more to get a decent driver.
So for OP, why is this driver a problem without even looking at it's distortion plots? The cone breakup starting at 4K is so low it makes it unsuitable to use as a midrang even with a steep crossover and an added notch or two. It's low frequency response suggests it is not large enough to be a woofer. This situation is not unlike the Silver Flute breakup (but they go down to 50!) This breakup will still be in the used region no matter what you do. What is the deal with breakup you ask? Anything the speaker does we did not tell it to do is by definition distortion.
On the SilverFLutes I discovered the first breakup was the dust cap, so I removed it and added a phase plug, then doped the cone to help the next higher cone breakup. MUCH easier and cheaper just to buy a better driver. Poly drivers will be better behaved in that respect, but most of us find them lacking in detail. Metal cone drivers tend to be even worse, but the problems are high enough to deal with in the crossover. We put up with that as they can have lower distortion by way of the stiffer cone, the very stiffness that causes the breakup. Catch-22. I am more a fan of treated paper.
Another great reference, ZAPH Audio. John has done all of us a great service in testing many drivers. Lots of good stuff to read there.
So for OP, why is this driver a problem without even looking at it's distortion plots? The cone breakup starting at 4K is so low it makes it unsuitable to use as a midrang even with a steep crossover and an added notch or two. It's low frequency response suggests it is not large enough to be a woofer. This situation is not unlike the Silver Flute breakup (but they go down to 50!) This breakup will still be in the used region no matter what you do. What is the deal with breakup you ask? Anything the speaker does we did not tell it to do is by definition distortion.
On the SilverFLutes I discovered the first breakup was the dust cap, so I removed it and added a phase plug, then doped the cone to help the next higher cone breakup. MUCH easier and cheaper just to buy a better driver. Poly drivers will be better behaved in that respect, but most of us find them lacking in detail. Metal cone drivers tend to be even worse, but the problems are high enough to deal with in the crossover. We put up with that as they can have lower distortion by way of the stiffer cone, the very stiffness that causes the breakup. Catch-22. I am more a fan of treated paper.
Another great reference, ZAPH Audio. John has done all of us a great service in testing many drivers. Lots of good stuff to read there.
e.g. this small driver is a nightmare :
Sorry to leech Zaph's bandwidth, but this MCM 55-1840 bears a second look:
That's a 4" glass fibre cone. Not much usable above 3kHz, but this electrical transfer function would work well enough:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I won't discuss the 2.2kHz XO filter, since that is MY business, but it's doable. Not ideal, because we expect more extension from 4" drivers, but doable. 😎
Or if you are sreten, "a nightmare". 😀
I agree with the mood thing. Sometimes those Bozak blunders I made sounded good to me but usually after a couple a brews. At the time those things cost more than my mortgage payment and I looked like a fool unless I had a few in me.
Tony
It seems like most of the reply's here are not even directed at me. That's OK. But most of those reply's are so far over my head and my simple mind. I have participated in other forums, not audio related, and to put it nicely you are all quite lively, knowlegeable and very opinionated. I like it although it gets confusing when you are at each others throats.
It seems I bought the worst drivers possible. Maybe I should just toss them. I bought them simply because 5 years ago MCM had a special on them for $5.99 each (or I had some kind of coupon) and claimed it was their best 6 1/2" seller, and the fact that the Adire Audio's Bang was based on them and the fact they required a large enclosure which was a plus for me to please the wife. A few weeks after that I got diagnosed with cancer and the project got shelved. Overall I'm more confused now than before I started this thread.
Tony
Edit
Forgot to mention: I don't know who to believe here. Someone says one thing and then someone else rams it down their throat. At this point I don't think there is any science, engineering or physics involved in speaker design. Just preferences, opinions, ones own experiences and a little voodoo. Its a shot in the dark unless you are willing to spend six months perfecting it and that was stated by another poster.
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Tony, my suggestion is to follow Steve, system 7. He is good at dealing with those just getting involved. Others have some other agenda. Steve is easing you into this and does so in a way others find too difficult to understand that all you want is something to listen to.
Cheers.
Cheers.
LOL Welcome to the wonderful world of speaker building.
Some of my stuff looks very Heath Robinson, maybe I should take up Voodoo In the end I tend to rely on my wifes opinion as she still has very good hearing, otherwise all my speakers would be shrill and peaky at 5k and that is what tone controls are for
I was cringing a bit at 40, 50, 60, hours of work, dust and a heavy 40 - 60 liter box, using very low cost drivers.
If you have room in the budget, be a good time to bring it up. There are many, many projects out there.
I'm the practical one (o;
Hang in there Tony, a lot to learn here.
If you have room in the budget, be a good time to bring it up. There are many, many projects out there.
I'm the practical one (o;
Hang in there Tony, a lot to learn here.
We haven't actually made any progress since the 5th post in this thread. But here's what we do have so far as a concept:
If I was spending a lot of time on a cabinet, I'd make the front baffle removable/replaceable for ease of future upgrades. Whether you rebate drivers or not shouldn't make huge difference. It'll need some fluffy stuff to control the long resonance, and a brace in the middle would be good.
I have worked with the fact that these are 6 inch polycones with lowish inductance and a Qts suitable for closed box and a Vas of 30L. Overall 40L is my feeling as to what will work best with most paired 6 inch drivers, but have 60L if you want. The 5kHz notch is what makes it work with most 6" drivers. It is a 3kHz crossover.
I am suggesting a cone tweeter because I like them, and a series MTM because I also like what they do. Anything else will be worse IMO, and I can't do that in all conscience. But you are free to do your own thing. The crossover will work anyway.
A (0.05mH) dome tweeter will use a Zobel of 7.5R and 1uF. The cone uses 7.5R and 1.5uF, being higher inductance (0.15mH) . It should be right, because the attenuation resistor relies on it flattening tweeter impedance to work right.
The 9R input resistance is tweeter level adjust. It is select on test.
The 3mH bass coil is for a relatively lively midrange, a 4.4mH will sound bassier, but less efficient. Kids always go for the bass, I don't.
That's it really. My best stab at working with an unknown 6" bass driver with a one-size-fits-all circuit. It's a very simple circuit really, but has everything I like in a crossover. Though most people won't care, phase alignment is really good so it'll image and integrate well.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If I was spending a lot of time on a cabinet, I'd make the front baffle removable/replaceable for ease of future upgrades. Whether you rebate drivers or not shouldn't make huge difference. It'll need some fluffy stuff to control the long resonance, and a brace in the middle would be good.
I have worked with the fact that these are 6 inch polycones with lowish inductance and a Qts suitable for closed box and a Vas of 30L. Overall 40L is my feeling as to what will work best with most paired 6 inch drivers, but have 60L if you want. The 5kHz notch is what makes it work with most 6" drivers. It is a 3kHz crossover.
I am suggesting a cone tweeter because I like them, and a series MTM because I also like what they do. Anything else will be worse IMO, and I can't do that in all conscience. But you are free to do your own thing. The crossover will work anyway.
A (0.05mH) dome tweeter will use a Zobel of 7.5R and 1uF. The cone uses 7.5R and 1.5uF, being higher inductance (0.15mH) . It should be right, because the attenuation resistor relies on it flattening tweeter impedance to work right.
The 9R input resistance is tweeter level adjust. It is select on test.
The 3mH bass coil is for a relatively lively midrange, a 4.4mH will sound bassier, but less efficient. Kids always go for the bass, I don't.
That's it really. My best stab at working with an unknown 6" bass driver with a one-size-fits-all circuit. It's a very simple circuit really, but has everything I like in a crossover. Though most people won't care, phase alignment is really good so it'll image and integrate well.
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Hey Tony, don't get too discouraged. Every forum gets heated like this, with everyone trying to ram their”best practices” down everyones throats. If you really want to see sparks fly, head over to stackoverflow and ask which C compiler is best🙂 Seriously though, I am in the same boat as you as I am building my first set of speakers. I didn't want to go the kit route because I didn't want to feel like I was just bolting together a piece of ikea furniture, but I also had no faith that I would be able to design something myself. I went the in between route and built a proven design from scratch. I learned a heck of a lot about the ”how” and ”why” by doing this, without the risk of pouring a ton of work into something and having it suck. I am building a design by Tony Gee called the Proteus. Unfortunately you won't be able to purchase the drivers for it now because they are no longer made. However, he has a design called the Concerto which is an MTM design. You can download the plans from his website along with the crossover schematic. Just google humblehomemadehifi to get to his website.
Hi Tony,
With all do respect, you might just want to build a kit. Regarding the way you listen, maybe it's best someone else do the heavy lifting and you just pick a design you think might fit your style and likes and just built someone else's kit.
There are tons of kits to choose from. In the end, you think you might be saving is money, but you be saving yourself a lot of aggrevation. Sell you drivers and use those funds toward a good kit.
Check out parts-express.com, madisound.com, also use google.com.
Good luck!
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Perhaps accepting the Vifa BC25SC06-04 tweeter and a baffle wider than 20 cm would help. 😉
Well Steve we are going to see how good you are with your best stab. I going to make these. What have I got to lose besides the $40 cost of a sheet of wood and a few hours of my time. The place I work at has a big milling machine with a computer connected to it. All I have to do is lay the cut to size baffles on the machine, punch in some numbers and it will swiftly cut my three holes. I won't spend time making them look pretty till after I have heard them.
That darn inductor is getting bigger and bigger. Going to cost more than the drivers.
Thanks
Tony
Well its not a money thing. I'm not rich by any means and would never spend $5k on speakers but a couple of hundred here and there to have fun working on a challenging project is worth it. I did spend close to $100 on an Overnight Sensation just because I was curious about them and it was something to do. I've been playing around with electronics since age 6. Its in my blood.
Tony
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