Are my heads hurts. So it is similar tech anyway? I am not sure I care.I still haven't found a decent 12" mid bass horn plan for my bedroom. Good to see he bought the tech out to buy separately anyway. AND yes I am calling it tech because thats what they call it on BEN TEN and like my daughter He rocks!
It's a modded Dayton PS220
I have never met Mr Deckert, nor spoken to him. But I have looked at his measurements on the FRX with great interest, and am quite surprised by what he's apparently been able to cook up. I have the same FuzzMeasure3.0 test suite he is using, and in looking at his direct FR vs 3d waterfall it would appear the unit he tested does actually have that incredibly flat on axis response. One question about this is how repeatable is that curve from driver to driver?
(BTW "flat on axis" is not necessarily the best or only target for subjective response, look up Floyd Toole's papers and Earl Geddes controlled directionality work)
From reading his prior posts and papers, I would guess that what he is probably doing in his mods is similar to what he did on the Fostex units. Check his paper at: DECWARE - Audio Paper - New Full Range Driver DFR8
So I conjecture that he is doing the following:
Modifying a stock Dayton driver, the PS220-8 which is probably costing him about $100 delivered to his door. Looks like the cone and the suspension get modded as follows:
- CONE... similar to this Fostex mod:
.... use a polyacrylic diluted with water and apply it to the cone under a high rotation. As the cone gets wet the fibers expand and the top layer of fibers are re-animated and brushed in the direction of the rotation. When the moisture evaporates from the cone, the polyacrylic encapsulated fibers are locked into position. The reason we do this is to remove the stress locked into the paper cone when it is pressed. The untreated cone is glass smooth to the touch while the treated cone has lost the gloss and developed a subtle texture. The improvement you hear in the sound of the paper itself when rubbed also shows up in the timbre of instruments and voices. A final benefit this cone mod brings is a stronger cone and one that is less effected by changing humidity.
- SURROUND: adds an extra polyether surround like Lowther:
.... have added a specially matched positive roll polyether foam surround to the top of the cone, while leaving the existing inverted surround intact. This creates a more linear resistance on the cone in both directions. It also by nature adds some damping to the cone, another reason Lowther probably uses it. But in the case of this driver, having both creates a dead air space that is sealed .... that effectively becomes a perfect absorber for the midrange frequencies that are most effected by modal resonances ...
I believe the above is why that nasty resonance at 3.5KHz on the stock Dayton is now gone. Basically eliminating a bell-like resonance by clamping it at the edges. Yeah, maybe Lowther had the idea first, but it's still a brilliant idea and execution.
- FILTERING:
Probably adding something very similar to his Gizmo, a transformer coupled network which reflects the "tuning circuit" impedances to be in "virtual" series with the speaker. If it's simply a resistance in the tuning load, this would be the same as putting a paralleled inductor and resistor in series with the driver to create shelf network to attenuate the upper bands... EXCEPT... by using the transformer coupling, the actual DCR the speaker sees in line may be quite a bit lower than is likely with a regular inductor., i.e. less in-line loss and possibly some increased damping.
I think it's unlikely that he's eq'ing any further than that, and he is probably just using a resistor in the tuning.
Now about the SEEMINGLY outrageous price of $595 for a driver (gasp !!): seems those who are attacking Decware for their price should look more carefully at what's involved.
Uh, let's see how much Lowther charges for their 8".. $1995 and up per pair. Has anyone here seen what Lowther measures like? Does anyone here know how much a driver like that costs to make? (My guess is under $100 per piece). If it were my money I would bet on the FRX hands down as being the likely winner vs any of the Lowthers or Fostex or even the cheap little Feastrex which is only something like $15K per driver.
Yeah but, isn't Decware just "rebranding" a $100 driver?
NO, no and No!! He's significantly MODIFYING IT !!
Including his transformer, the driver itself, the foam surround, etc., along with the techy looking housing on the back, the total must be less than $180 per driver ... BUT... there is probably a fair amount of labor involved, not to mention the off-chance of screwing up and ruining a few drivers in the process.
Oh, and did anyone mention how many thousands of hours Mr. Deckert may have spent developing and refining his tweaks and modding capabilities? If you invested LOTS of your time in making products that work well, would you like to try and recoup some of that when you actually develop products that do work and very well at that?
Now, to those who complain about Decware's marketing practices, have a look at what Saleen Racing does to a base Mustang in making it into a super-car. Anyone bitching about that?
It's a similar process, take a good base product and use advanced expertise to refine it. Saleen uses maybe $2K to $5K of parts in a package that sells for more than $30 to 60K additional on the 'Stang. Like Saleen, Deckert is selling the value of his accumulated knowledge and expertise.
It ain't just the parts folks!
Now, if you can do the same mods for a lot less, please let me know, as I would be really interested in getting a pair at a better price! How 'bout you Dave?
Listen, if Deckert's measurements are real and prove to be similar on the next batch of "FRX" drivers, my hat's off to him for being smart and innovative in his mods, and gutsy enough to charge a fair market price for top-notch performance. Yeah, it's more than I would want to pay, but it actually may be a very fair price relative to what else is available.
Maybe Steve should come right out and admit he's modding the Dayton and then say: OK, my price is still gonna be $595... go ahead, try it, ruin a few drivers in the process, and then see if you've still saved any money. Oh, and also verify it by measurement to see if it's anywhere as good.
Got the point? Deckert's got a very different way of doing things. So do I. I hope there's still room for innovators in this corporatocracy we live in.
Gee, maybe I'm just sensitive because I'm also trying to make a living with my own speakers...check it out at HolisticAudio dot com
Thanks for listening.
I have never met Mr Deckert, nor spoken to him. But I have looked at his measurements on the FRX with great interest, and am quite surprised by what he's apparently been able to cook up. I have the same FuzzMeasure3.0 test suite he is using, and in looking at his direct FR vs 3d waterfall it would appear the unit he tested does actually have that incredibly flat on axis response. One question about this is how repeatable is that curve from driver to driver?
(BTW "flat on axis" is not necessarily the best or only target for subjective response, look up Floyd Toole's papers and Earl Geddes controlled directionality work)
From reading his prior posts and papers, I would guess that what he is probably doing in his mods is similar to what he did on the Fostex units. Check his paper at: DECWARE - Audio Paper - New Full Range Driver DFR8
So I conjecture that he is doing the following:
Modifying a stock Dayton driver, the PS220-8 which is probably costing him about $100 delivered to his door. Looks like the cone and the suspension get modded as follows:
- CONE... similar to this Fostex mod:
.... use a polyacrylic diluted with water and apply it to the cone under a high rotation. As the cone gets wet the fibers expand and the top layer of fibers are re-animated and brushed in the direction of the rotation. When the moisture evaporates from the cone, the polyacrylic encapsulated fibers are locked into position. The reason we do this is to remove the stress locked into the paper cone when it is pressed. The untreated cone is glass smooth to the touch while the treated cone has lost the gloss and developed a subtle texture. The improvement you hear in the sound of the paper itself when rubbed also shows up in the timbre of instruments and voices. A final benefit this cone mod brings is a stronger cone and one that is less effected by changing humidity.
- SURROUND: adds an extra polyether surround like Lowther:
.... have added a specially matched positive roll polyether foam surround to the top of the cone, while leaving the existing inverted surround intact. This creates a more linear resistance on the cone in both directions. It also by nature adds some damping to the cone, another reason Lowther probably uses it. But in the case of this driver, having both creates a dead air space that is sealed .... that effectively becomes a perfect absorber for the midrange frequencies that are most effected by modal resonances ...
I believe the above is why that nasty resonance at 3.5KHz on the stock Dayton is now gone. Basically eliminating a bell-like resonance by clamping it at the edges. Yeah, maybe Lowther had the idea first, but it's still a brilliant idea and execution.
- FILTERING:
Probably adding something very similar to his Gizmo, a transformer coupled network which reflects the "tuning circuit" impedances to be in "virtual" series with the speaker. If it's simply a resistance in the tuning load, this would be the same as putting a paralleled inductor and resistor in series with the driver to create shelf network to attenuate the upper bands... EXCEPT... by using the transformer coupling, the actual DCR the speaker sees in line may be quite a bit lower than is likely with a regular inductor., i.e. less in-line loss and possibly some increased damping.
I think it's unlikely that he's eq'ing any further than that, and he is probably just using a resistor in the tuning.
Now about the SEEMINGLY outrageous price of $595 for a driver (gasp !!): seems those who are attacking Decware for their price should look more carefully at what's involved.
Uh, let's see how much Lowther charges for their 8".. $1995 and up per pair. Has anyone here seen what Lowther measures like? Does anyone here know how much a driver like that costs to make? (My guess is under $100 per piece). If it were my money I would bet on the FRX hands down as being the likely winner vs any of the Lowthers or Fostex or even the cheap little Feastrex which is only something like $15K per driver.
Yeah but, isn't Decware just "rebranding" a $100 driver?
NO, no and No!! He's significantly MODIFYING IT !!
Including his transformer, the driver itself, the foam surround, etc., along with the techy looking housing on the back, the total must be less than $180 per driver ... BUT... there is probably a fair amount of labor involved, not to mention the off-chance of screwing up and ruining a few drivers in the process.
Oh, and did anyone mention how many thousands of hours Mr. Deckert may have spent developing and refining his tweaks and modding capabilities? If you invested LOTS of your time in making products that work well, would you like to try and recoup some of that when you actually develop products that do work and very well at that?
Now, to those who complain about Decware's marketing practices, have a look at what Saleen Racing does to a base Mustang in making it into a super-car. Anyone bitching about that?
It's a similar process, take a good base product and use advanced expertise to refine it. Saleen uses maybe $2K to $5K of parts in a package that sells for more than $30 to 60K additional on the 'Stang. Like Saleen, Deckert is selling the value of his accumulated knowledge and expertise.
It ain't just the parts folks!
Now, if you can do the same mods for a lot less, please let me know, as I would be really interested in getting a pair at a better price! How 'bout you Dave?
Listen, if Deckert's measurements are real and prove to be similar on the next batch of "FRX" drivers, my hat's off to him for being smart and innovative in his mods, and gutsy enough to charge a fair market price for top-notch performance. Yeah, it's more than I would want to pay, but it actually may be a very fair price relative to what else is available.
Maybe Steve should come right out and admit he's modding the Dayton and then say: OK, my price is still gonna be $595... go ahead, try it, ruin a few drivers in the process, and then see if you've still saved any money. Oh, and also verify it by measurement to see if it's anywhere as good.
Got the point? Deckert's got a very different way of doing things. So do I. I hope there's still room for innovators in this corporatocracy we live in.
Gee, maybe I'm just sensitive because I'm also trying to make a living with my own speakers...check it out at HolisticAudio dot com
Thanks for listening.
Dave me? I've already got my plate full with the drivers i already do, and have my own programme of modifications. (i do use a lazy susan like Steve thou). I'll do a set of Daytons up with my Programme for anyone that wants... personally i think that ~4-5" is the sweet spot for FR drivers.
As a diyer i will play with transformer coupled filters. May lead to o'netics producing a suitable device for diyers. But with ubiqutous digital EQ on the horizon it may well be too little, too late, at too high a cost.
The big difference between my mods & Steve's are that mine are not hidden behind a cloud of obscuration, Anyone who wants can find the information needed to do what i do. The only advantage i have is lots of practise, and in the case of the regular drivers i buy large enuff batches to get good matching.
One thing you mention needs emphasis. I myself, and likely Steve too, will end up with drivers killed in process or ones that won't match.
One other note: Being able to lean on all the experience he has, if Steve has thousands of hours of R&D into the PE driver then he is incompetent (and i do not at all believe that he is)
Also, the acrylic coating on the cones is pretty much the gloss coat on an EnABLed driver. If the Decware 206s i treated are indicative (much to the satisfaction of the owner), very little is used. Also, the cone is smoother after this treatment, not rougher.
And a bit of a sidetrack, FuzzMeasure is a wonderful tool isn't it. FM 1.33 is what i use for taking 1000s of impedance measurses in the process of matching drivers.
dave
Thousands of hours?
Hey Dave,
Well, yeah, but I didn't mean thousands of hours just on the Dayton, the comment applies to the investment in time and the expenses associated in gaining a body of knowledge that can then be applied across the board.
As an example, as a BSEE, while developing my line of speakers, I must have put over 6000 hours and 160K of lost wages into getting my Holistic Audio H3 speakers developed during a 2 year span. The knowledge acquired during that time helped me enormously when it came time to develop the H1 which only took about 1500 hours of my time and another 60K of lost wages to develop and refine...
In order recoup some of my investment, I then try to amortize some of that time and money by adding some of that cost into each pair I build. But, in fact, that may never happen...it's a big risk for an unknown return. And yet, for some, my speakers will appear waay too expensive and I'll get pilloried in the forums. Sigh. C' est la vie.
I presume your case is somewhat similar, since by now you have developed tremendous expertise at doing the en-abl and other mods... but that doesn't mean you would necessarily be willing to charge less because you can go a lot faster ... or would you?
As for Steve's obfuscations, while he does seem a little too sly in trying to hide his trade secrets, I can't blame him for doing it.
As an example I'm doing some things and simple mods with my speakers which yield spectacular results but would be overly easy to copy, so I'm not in a big hurry to talk about or publish those things on this forum or on my website!
It kind of runs against my grain, as I prefer to shoot from the hip and I would really WANT to share these things with the whole world, but I can't yet, unless I am ready to give up what chances I have of recovering my investment! I suspect Steve Deckert feels the same way.
It can be a little challenging to make a living in this biz!
Hey Dave,
Well, yeah, but I didn't mean thousands of hours just on the Dayton, the comment applies to the investment in time and the expenses associated in gaining a body of knowledge that can then be applied across the board.
As an example, as a BSEE, while developing my line of speakers, I must have put over 6000 hours and 160K of lost wages into getting my Holistic Audio H3 speakers developed during a 2 year span. The knowledge acquired during that time helped me enormously when it came time to develop the H1 which only took about 1500 hours of my time and another 60K of lost wages to develop and refine...
In order recoup some of my investment, I then try to amortize some of that time and money by adding some of that cost into each pair I build. But, in fact, that may never happen...it's a big risk for an unknown return. And yet, for some, my speakers will appear waay too expensive and I'll get pilloried in the forums. Sigh. C' est la vie.
I presume your case is somewhat similar, since by now you have developed tremendous expertise at doing the en-abl and other mods... but that doesn't mean you would necessarily be willing to charge less because you can go a lot faster ... or would you?
As for Steve's obfuscations, while he does seem a little too sly in trying to hide his trade secrets, I can't blame him for doing it.
As an example I'm doing some things and simple mods with my speakers which yield spectacular results but would be overly easy to copy, so I'm not in a big hurry to talk about or publish those things on this forum or on my website!
It kind of runs against my grain, as I prefer to shoot from the hip and I would really WANT to share these things with the whole world, but I can't yet, unless I am ready to give up what chances I have of recovering my investment! I suspect Steve Deckert feels the same way.
It can be a little challenging to make a living in this biz!
I can relate to that. Fortunately i got paid during a formative stint at a hifi store right after university... unfortunately i probably could have made 100x as much exercising my Honours BSc in math. But i'm not about the money. And then the 30 years after, with the last 10 particularily intense... i could be making 10x as much selling & supporting Apple stuff but it would not be a 1/100th as fullfilling (fortunately some customers will never let go which helps with the cah flow.
?
It has been a hard slog learning what things need to sell for to actually make money. We are still likely not charging enuff. I know that the special order whizzer cone drivers net small return for the hours put in.
The difference is that i'm in the diy business. Built speakers -- other than prototypes (which usually get flipped for a loss even if labour is ignored -- are few & far between.
Trying to sell a built speaker to a diyer is a challenge and largely impossible to make any realistic money thou. Even thou the speaker i sell for $1500 will outpeform the $6000 speaker at the hifi store, because a diyer can make (ignoring finish) a set for $400 (and the hobby is all the return needed on the labour)
I believe that long term success requires a continued growth of diy, so anything i can do to make a diyer an addict (and their success infect others) is a good thing. People wouldn't be willing to purchase drivers without proven boxes to put them in, and growing number of diyers keeps the number & quality of drivers growing. Successful boxes like Fonken & Saburo & RonHorns have paved the way for people to pay for Mar-Ken & Maeshowe (that the plans set a new standard and there is extensive designer & builder support doesn't hurt either)
It is, but what value the satisfaction of doing something that is a passion? On my case, the vocation is in support of the passion.
dave
Decware FRX
I was asking this question because I find that the price of these hand-made 8'' fullrange drivers is not "so expensive" in comparison to high-end drivers like : Fertin, AER, Feastrex, Phy-hp, fullrange-speakers.com, field-coil.com, and so on ... If they are so amazing as Decware describe them !
But they could be expensive if someone experimented told us that he has already listened to them and found that they are not worthing the value.
I could not say that I am a newbie in FR nor OB; you can visit my little site : Moreorlessaudio (with the use of semi-fullrange Phy-hp in OB), or look at my thread in subwoofer topic with the use of Technysound cheap woofer TS38/300D.
Greetings to all from Switzerland.
I was asking this question because I find that the price of these hand-made 8'' fullrange drivers is not "so expensive" in comparison to high-end drivers like : Fertin, AER, Feastrex, Phy-hp, fullrange-speakers.com, field-coil.com, and so on ... If they are so amazing as Decware describe them !
But they could be expensive if someone experimented told us that he has already listened to them and found that they are not worthing the value.
I could not say that I am a newbie in FR nor OB; you can visit my little site : Moreorlessaudio (with the use of semi-fullrange Phy-hp in OB), or look at my thread in subwoofer topic with the use of Technysound cheap woofer TS38/300D.
Greetings to all from Switzerland.
This driver is a big gamble IMO, considering it starts life as this unproven driver....Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver. The plots are good, and the stereo recording is very good. There's just one thing that doesn't jive for me.......the claimed 38hz lower response cutoff, and the 70hz fs, at least not in an OB.
Last edited:
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I haven't looked at that Dayton driver before - how good is it, say relative to Fostex 8" or Audio Nirvana 8" - and how much better can the Decware be if it's based on it ?
I have merged your thread with an earlier one on the same driver
If you go back and read earlier posts you will find out alot.
In summary, Decware takes a retail $100 driver (a PE housebrand Dayton) adds a surround, and adds a transformer coupled passive EQ filter, Since there is high voltage present on some of the taps of the transformer it is put into a big can which gives the driver the apperance of being a field coil.
Decware also sells an external box that does much the same sort of EQ.
dave
OK, thanks to Planet10 for the technical help about the birth and composition of this FRX driver.
I had understood that it was not a field-coil driver.
But I would like to find some people who have listened this driver and if they had musical pleasure to ear them, nevertheless the fact there is a transformer coupled passive EQ filter in them.
I had understood that it was not a field-coil driver.
But I would like to find some people who have listened this driver and if they had musical pleasure to ear them, nevertheless the fact there is a transformer coupled passive EQ filter in them.
I did hear that driver. It was at Decware in his OBs running his amps. I was very impressed with it. I only heard them for a while but the bass was amazing. It went deep and sounded like there were 10" subs hiding. To my ears they sounded very good. I wish I had more time to listen to them. I am saving up to get a pair.
If it sounded like 10" subs were running, it's because there were. If you loosely inspect the layout of Steve's OB, there is clearly a ported sub in the lower chamber. I have no doubt that the FRX driver sounds good, but it's not doing much below the claimed 70hz FS in an OB. This is not a design flaw, as many of us have done the same for bass augmentation with OB's however, he chooses to omit this in any of his marketing dialogue.
From all the info I read that lower chamber is said to be only loaded by the OB driver directly above it.. There is no mention of 10'' subs or otherwise installed in those "ported" chambers etc.
I may be wrong here......but seeing the cutaway view of the cab I presumed (wrongly perhaps) there was a sub housed in that chamber. IMO if there's not it's quite a waste of space, other than adding mass to the cab. I don't see a point if it's truly empty....there is nothing coupling the driver to the lower chamber, thus no loading.
It's explained on the site that there is no other driver in the cab, except for the full range drive unit: Audiophile Tube Amps and Tube Gear from DECWARE
There are no other speakers in that chamber!!!
Its the combo of the driver and the OB speaker design. Anyway you look at it, it sounded really good and yes it went deep. The one song I played was Kitaro Aqua. This song is all instrumental and has nice deep bass. I use this song to test out speakers. I know when the bass note hits and I wait for it. This driver and the OB speakers impressed me when that note hit. They go low.
Its the combo of the driver and the OB speaker design. Anyway you look at it, it sounded really good and yes it went deep. The one song I played was Kitaro Aqua. This song is all instrumental and has nice deep bass. I use this song to test out speakers. I know when the bass note hits and I wait for it. This driver and the OB speakers impressed me when that note hit. They go low.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.