If they make a batch that is in the -15--10% range, do they have any reason to correct/adjust it for the next batch? Any reason not to?
They could make caps that's ±5% from 2800µF and just call them 3300µF ±20%. (or whatever values)
Well, that's what I would do.😀
They could make caps that's ±5% from 2800µF and just call them 3300µF ±20%. (or whatever values)
Well, that's what I would do.😀
Except they'd be able to sell those 2800uf caps, marked as tight tolerance at +-5% for way more than 3300uf marked as +-20%.
Thanks for all the advice.
Jan.didden:
Every time you buy capacitors, they are always 10-15% beneath their statet value -> yes? No matter which value and voltage rating? Ignorant?
My #1 post were that i (eod -> precision of my LCR, thats not the colpit) found it incredible that all different values of capacitors shipped, came with the same lack of capacitance !!! (10-15%).
The issue isnt about the specified tolerance for each componet deliveret (+-20%), or how production batches is alike or specifications for the circuit etc etc.
Im in contact with Mouser, and return in original shipment bags etc isnt any problem. Of course i'm gonna pay shipment. But no shipment fee on "replacement" capacitors. Yeah it doesnt quite make sense, but no Panasonic parts are going inside any of my amplifieres. But Rubycon, vishay and Elna.. ( and yes, im gonna messure the parts before soldering! 🙂 )
Anatech:
I know that the amplifiers isnt beginners stuff but i like the challenge. Actually drove from Denmark to Norway and back on 1 day, to retrieve the last one (1000km - seller wouldn't ship). It where into pieces (norweigan guy had tried to fix it), but the main germ of this buy, where 1 original service manual printet in 1984/9!! Im "used" to mechanics, and i doesn't torke everything to death. Most transistor chasings require 0,6-0,8Nm with mica/siliconepaste. Have spent countless hours removing old burned acid like glue, desoldering all capacitors/ and transistors for messurement etc. One thing which make the amps difficult is the dual mono construction (main amp boards isnt accessible when installed), with no global 0. Each huge heatsink/channel is mountet on small plastic bearings. Have actually 3d printet new plastic parts 😀.
5the element: Youre right, but the time spent choosing/ordering parts, preparing everything, and then so close to the final result, old parts is for the most messuring better than new parts..... you get the picture
. An the trade off is smaller capacitance all over ...
as_audio: Thanks for the support. Picture wise the sausage comparisson was spot on. The actual legistations in Uk about average size/wieght wasn't the deal. But well, you put in better therms that i did!!
And after the 2 luxmans, There's an Marantz PM84 mk2 waiting to recieve some attention.
If the treadname is to offensive, moderator is welcome find another more suitable title!
Jan.didden:
Every time you buy capacitors, they are always 10-15% beneath their statet value -> yes? No matter which value and voltage rating? Ignorant?
My #1 post were that i (eod -> precision of my LCR, thats not the colpit) found it incredible that all different values of capacitors shipped, came with the same lack of capacitance !!! (10-15%).
The issue isnt about the specified tolerance for each componet deliveret (+-20%), or how production batches is alike or specifications for the circuit etc etc.
Im in contact with Mouser, and return in original shipment bags etc isnt any problem. Of course i'm gonna pay shipment. But no shipment fee on "replacement" capacitors. Yeah it doesnt quite make sense, but no Panasonic parts are going inside any of my amplifieres. But Rubycon, vishay and Elna.. ( and yes, im gonna messure the parts before soldering! 🙂 )
Anatech:
I know that the amplifiers isnt beginners stuff but i like the challenge. Actually drove from Denmark to Norway and back on 1 day, to retrieve the last one (1000km - seller wouldn't ship). It where into pieces (norweigan guy had tried to fix it), but the main germ of this buy, where 1 original service manual printet in 1984/9!! Im "used" to mechanics, and i doesn't torke everything to death. Most transistor chasings require 0,6-0,8Nm with mica/siliconepaste. Have spent countless hours removing old burned acid like glue, desoldering all capacitors/ and transistors for messurement etc. One thing which make the amps difficult is the dual mono construction (main amp boards isnt accessible when installed), with no global 0. Each huge heatsink/channel is mountet on small plastic bearings. Have actually 3d printet new plastic parts 😀.
5the element: Youre right, but the time spent choosing/ordering parts, preparing everything, and then so close to the final result, old parts is for the most messuring better than new parts..... you get the picture
. An the trade off is smaller capacitance all over ...as_audio: Thanks for the support. Picture wise the sausage comparisson was spot on. The actual legistations in Uk about average size/wieght wasn't the deal. But well, you put in better therms that i did!!
And after the 2 luxmans, There's an Marantz PM84 mk2 waiting to recieve some attention.
If the treadname is to offensive, moderator is welcome find another more suitable title!
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Except the market for 2800uF 5% is tiny. Reducing manufacturing cost by 1% is valuable in the commodity components business, their profit margins are very thin
From my opinion it is.
Panasonic caps are excellent for audio and well known and used for there quality.
I totally agree with Anatech, you have a lot to learn and are getting good and honest advice from very experienced techs.
As said many times before, they are all within spec, so don't worry, the capacitance value is often not that critical. More important specs and often overlooked are the current a cap can handle at a certain freq and temp. And of course Dielectric losses.
Your amp is going to sound very different with Rubycon iso Panasonic for example, you should try it out yourself, however it's a lot of work.
A good philosophy on replacement of unregulated PS bulk filter caps is to order new modern ones by keeping case size and voltage ratings similar to the old ones, then you are surely going to see an increase in capacitance values from +30 to 100% depending on their age differences, a net audio upgrade for not much money.
IDK about the lower than nominal value he measured, perhaps they will show some improvement from some in-circuit electrolyte aging and plate voltage forming. I did notice he chose his cap upgrade path on either increased voltage and temp. and pin his hopes for above average cap values on the lottery.
IMO the OP made a common mistake to put primary focus on one of the lesser important criteria for these type of applications E.g. the capacitance tolerance.
The returned parts will still work, some audio folks are a different breed I reckon.
IDK about the lower than nominal value he measured, perhaps they will show some improvement from some in-circuit electrolyte aging and plate voltage forming. I did notice he chose his cap upgrade path on either increased voltage and temp. and pin his hopes for above average cap values on the lottery.
IMO the OP made a common mistake to put primary focus on one of the lesser important criteria for these type of applications E.g. the capacitance tolerance.
The returned parts will still work, some audio folks are a different breed I reckon.
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Rather than making hysterical accusations of a "scam" against a respected manufacturer of electronic components, you would have been better served by posting a polite question e.g something along the lines of: "The new
capacitors I ordered are all 10-15% below rated capacity, how can this be?".
In which case you would most likely have received the answer that a number of the posters here have already provided, and which you continue to ignore, and that is that you should "form" the capacitors at working voltage before attempting to measure the value.
As you don't seem to believe anyone here (which makes me wonder why you posted here) maybe you will believe this http://de.tdk.eu/blob/185386/download/5/pdf-generaltechnicalinformation.pdf instead.
In particular this paragraph:
3.7.7 Leakage current behavior after voltage-free storage
The oxide layer of aluminum electrolytic capacitors may deteriorate when they are stored without an externally applied voltage, especially at higher temperatures. Since there is no leakage current to transport oxygen ions to the anode in this case, the oxide layer is not regenerated. The result is that a higher than normal leakage current will flow when a voltage is applied after prolonged storage. As the oxide layer is regenerated in use, however, the leakage current will gradually decline to its normal level.
This will have a bearing on the value you are seeing on your capacitance meter.
Clive
Clive: You are absolutely right. I got carried a "little" away.. And no 2 chance on editing treadname..
DP96: Nice approach!
Removal of old capacitors, desoldering 1 leg of most transistors on main amp board for testing with an atlas dca55 to get an indication of Hfe, Vbe an Ic (leakage). As statet before, there is no access to main amp boards when installed. Resoldering most of the circuitry is standard procedure at that age. All is done at lowest possible temperature set at the soldering and desoldering station. Standard procedure when giving old eletronics new wings!
Probing main power boards etc, when amplifier is turned on, is standard procedure. You dont desolder componets just for sake of it!
Worked in mid 1980 at Philips Denmark Nmt mobilephone/ap navigation based production/development (Smd based in its early stage). So my capabilities circuitry wise is perhabs a bit above average..
Actually i bougth the first amplifier from an highly estimate repairshop in Denmark, where it had been collecting dust for 1 year. One channel where being fixed, but when testing it afterwards, over a period of 2 days, the 2 channel went pooof with a lot of smoke!! The previous owner didnt want to offer any money, just letting the repair shop getting it ready for a sale. Been standing in a cellar for 10 years prior to the fix. I paid the "repair" bill (still 1 broken channel) and bought the amplifier for a reasonable prices beside(10T£)
And Gents of the forum, please no more demean remarks!! Its enough!
DP96: Nice approach!
Removal of old capacitors, desoldering 1 leg of most transistors on main amp board for testing with an atlas dca55 to get an indication of Hfe, Vbe an Ic (leakage). As statet before, there is no access to main amp boards when installed. Resoldering most of the circuitry is standard procedure at that age. All is done at lowest possible temperature set at the soldering and desoldering station. Standard procedure when giving old eletronics new wings!
Probing main power boards etc, when amplifier is turned on, is standard procedure. You dont desolder componets just for sake of it!
Worked in mid 1980 at Philips Denmark Nmt mobilephone/ap navigation based production/development (Smd based in its early stage). So my capabilities circuitry wise is perhabs a bit above average..
Actually i bougth the first amplifier from an highly estimate repairshop in Denmark, where it had been collecting dust for 1 year. One channel where being fixed, but when testing it afterwards, over a period of 2 days, the 2 channel went pooof with a lot of smoke!! The previous owner didnt want to offer any money, just letting the repair shop getting it ready for a sale. Been standing in a cellar for 10 years prior to the fix. I paid the "repair" bill (still 1 broken channel) and bought the amplifier for a reasonable prices beside(10T£)
And Gents of the forum, please no more demean remarks!! Its enough!
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Imagine you had purchased 20 M8x25 machine screws that had a length tolerance of 25 +/- 1mm and upon measurement all were found to be 24.3mm long. Would you call it a scam or send them back...of course not as they would function perfectly well in an attachment engineered around the specifications of the screw. Similarly electronics gear that calls for an electrolytic capacitor of a particular value is engineered to work properly with a part falling within the tolerance range, which happens to be a large percentage of the nominal value for electrolytic capacitors. Nobody was cheated or scammed here, it is your understanding of the statistics of mass produced parts that is faulty.
yeah if they were all found to be exactly 25.4 mm, he'd then call it a conspiracy.🙄
initial capacitance of these parts depends on the chemistry of their suppliers more than anything else.
maybe these ones were too fresh, like green bananas bought at the grocers.
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Infinia... And you would call the manufacture .. Smart business guy..
If you buy a hole collection of different maschine screws, and they all were to short with the same 10-15%. Would you just call it coincidence due to the way they are manufactured?
Please - no more "smart" remarks!
If you buy a hole collection of different maschine screws, and they all were to short with the same 10-15%. Would you just call it coincidence due to the way they are manufactured?
Please - no more "smart" remarks!
On which planet is resoldering regarded as standard procedure? Just another way to break something. Why not find faults and fix them?Jmlyd said:
Some people do, then wonder why the item stops working.
Post 51:
Post 1:
Which statement are we to believe? Given the content of this thread, which statement is more plausible?
DF96:
Producing new high freq. smd circuit isnt the same as reparing old solid state audio equipment. But soldering ( most is wawe soldered), messuring and testing requires some of the same skills.
Producing new high freq. smd circuit isnt the same as reparing old solid state audio equipment. But soldering ( most is wawe soldered), messuring and testing requires some of the same skills.
So you operated an SMT wave soldering machine in the 80's?
Cool, interesting job, very advanced in that era ... now how does that translate into increased hand soldering skills? 😕
It's like saying that having a million miles in your frequent flyer record will help you one bit in getting a Private Pilot licence (single engine small planes).
Hi Jmlyd,
You are receiving criticism for the title of the thread. I do think it ought to be changed to something less inflammatory. I also think you are receiving good information as you talk about your plans for this amplifier. Now that I have the background on the amplifier, some of what you have said makes more sense if I imagine your viewpoint.
Why not ask for suggestions as to what you should consider doing? That might bring more constructive comments your way.
What new title would you suggest for this thread? How about something on repairing the Luxman M-05 that you are working on? I think the mod team can manage a title change in this case.
-Chris
You are receiving criticism for the title of the thread. I do think it ought to be changed to something less inflammatory. I also think you are receiving good information as you talk about your plans for this amplifier. Now that I have the background on the amplifier, some of what you have said makes more sense if I imagine your viewpoint.
Why not ask for suggestions as to what you should consider doing? That might bring more constructive comments your way.
What new title would you suggest for this thread? How about something on repairing the Luxman M-05 that you are working on? I think the mod team can manage a title change in this case.
-Chris
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