Recent years I made a few different 12" coaxial projects with PA drivers and are quite happy with them, still they are not fully complete on the crossover side but in general I like the PA sound of high sensitivity and punch. But as I get quickly bored I figured now its time to make my first attempt at a 3-way solution as reference hoping for more midrange clarity, and I have been thinking a lot about various drivers for this inspired by modern retro monitor speakers like Klipsch Heresy IV and JBL4319/4429 and older Pioneer CS701.
I will use the same "form factor" as my most recent coax design as I really like it: baffle inner 36x58cm, inner depth 30cm = approx 60l; outer depth 40cm, width/height 40x62cm. The box design allows a double front/rear baffle where the outer baffles can be replaced and it also allow up to 2cm thick grill to be sunken into the baffle frame, just as the Heresy which gives that retro look I like. My most recent projects I used pine, MDF and oak with various success. I plan now to use a single 1200x2400x19mm ply piece with cuts as shows in attached drawing - this is a cost-effective use of the piece and I can make many projects of the same for my future home cinema and studio.
In a weak moment I came over Fane Pro 12-500 bass driver and procured it without thinking much about it, price is quite good and it ticks of most of my requirements to a 12" in a project like this. What a monster of a driver design, cant wait to test it. I don't expect much below 45Hz in a 60l cabinet. I'm thinking rear ported but haven't decided. I also bought Fane Studio 5 midrange driver, though I hadn't really decided whether I wanted a cone mid like the 4319 or a horn mid like the 4429, Heresy and Pioneer, but I just bought it as an option - I like to have things laying around, I can definitely use it in a project some day anyway. And this is where I might need some advice. More on that below.
From before I have various 1" HF drivers that I could use: Eminence APT50 or ASD1001 as well as Selenium D220Ti, and a few various cheap plastic horns like Eminence APT80 and 150. I will most likely use the APT50/80 combo for high frequency from 5kHz and the Fane 12" up to 500Hz so that whatever mid I chose will play from approximately 500-5k. Now the Fane studio 5 will not be sensitive enough to keep up with the 12" nor the HF but it will definitly work quite good in the 500Hz region and allow some baffle step options for the LF. The HF can be tamed with a variable L-PAD so thats fine. For the low/mid I might consider active crossing but I dont want to limit anything before I have done some measurements. But for the mid I am now considering procuring Selenium D250X and use it in the APT150 short horn instead of the Fane studio 5 as indicated in the drawings below.
The D250 looks to work down to 500 with decent power handling, and the reviews seems OK. Anyone have any experience with the Selenium D250x in a setup like this, 0,5-5kHz? And will it even be possible in such a short narrow horn like the APT150 or short I like for larger horns? Max width is 30cm, height about 14cm, depth as said max 30cm. I assume the whole solution will need a lot of EQ to play OK, that is the plan but I'm thinking about distortion, sensitivity, power handling etc compared to using the Fane 5" and how much complexity I ad to EQ/DSP and XO by doing so. Any advice appreciated. Some drawings and the inspirations attached for simplicity for the reader.
Note: this project is mostly for fun, I don't aim for super high end sound. I'm all about power and sensitivity first and foremost, consider it a PA/Studio main or a front home cinema speaker. I might also build a sub to support this. The form factor allow me also to replace front baffle and drivers in the future, so its good for maintenance and mod perspective, which is why I standardize on this now. I don't need input on that.
Thanks.
https://www.parts-express.com/Selenium-D250-X-1-Phenolic-Horn-Driver-1-3-8-18-TPI-264-204
I will use the same "form factor" as my most recent coax design as I really like it: baffle inner 36x58cm, inner depth 30cm = approx 60l; outer depth 40cm, width/height 40x62cm. The box design allows a double front/rear baffle where the outer baffles can be replaced and it also allow up to 2cm thick grill to be sunken into the baffle frame, just as the Heresy which gives that retro look I like. My most recent projects I used pine, MDF and oak with various success. I plan now to use a single 1200x2400x19mm ply piece with cuts as shows in attached drawing - this is a cost-effective use of the piece and I can make many projects of the same for my future home cinema and studio.
In a weak moment I came over Fane Pro 12-500 bass driver and procured it without thinking much about it, price is quite good and it ticks of most of my requirements to a 12" in a project like this. What a monster of a driver design, cant wait to test it. I don't expect much below 45Hz in a 60l cabinet. I'm thinking rear ported but haven't decided. I also bought Fane Studio 5 midrange driver, though I hadn't really decided whether I wanted a cone mid like the 4319 or a horn mid like the 4429, Heresy and Pioneer, but I just bought it as an option - I like to have things laying around, I can definitely use it in a project some day anyway. And this is where I might need some advice. More on that below.
From before I have various 1" HF drivers that I could use: Eminence APT50 or ASD1001 as well as Selenium D220Ti, and a few various cheap plastic horns like Eminence APT80 and 150. I will most likely use the APT50/80 combo for high frequency from 5kHz and the Fane 12" up to 500Hz so that whatever mid I chose will play from approximately 500-5k. Now the Fane studio 5 will not be sensitive enough to keep up with the 12" nor the HF but it will definitly work quite good in the 500Hz region and allow some baffle step options for the LF. The HF can be tamed with a variable L-PAD so thats fine. For the low/mid I might consider active crossing but I dont want to limit anything before I have done some measurements. But for the mid I am now considering procuring Selenium D250X and use it in the APT150 short horn instead of the Fane studio 5 as indicated in the drawings below.
The D250 looks to work down to 500 with decent power handling, and the reviews seems OK. Anyone have any experience with the Selenium D250x in a setup like this, 0,5-5kHz? And will it even be possible in such a short narrow horn like the APT150 or short I like for larger horns? Max width is 30cm, height about 14cm, depth as said max 30cm. I assume the whole solution will need a lot of EQ to play OK, that is the plan but I'm thinking about distortion, sensitivity, power handling etc compared to using the Fane 5" and how much complexity I ad to EQ/DSP and XO by doing so. Any advice appreciated. Some drawings and the inspirations attached for simplicity for the reader.
Note: this project is mostly for fun, I don't aim for super high end sound. I'm all about power and sensitivity first and foremost, consider it a PA/Studio main or a front home cinema speaker. I might also build a sub to support this. The form factor allow me also to replace front baffle and drivers in the future, so its good for maintenance and mod perspective, which is why I standardize on this now. I don't need input on that.
Thanks.
https://www.parts-express.com/Selenium-D250-X-1-Phenolic-Horn-Driver-1-3-8-18-TPI-264-204
Attachments
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After much pondering Ive come to the conclusion that I will save the 5" studio mid for a future project with a dome tweeter and a hifi-bass/sub leaving this project with a horn mid, Heresy style.
So here is my questions:
- Do anyone have experience with Selenium D250X driver? Is it any good? Will it work down to 500Hz? Could the D220Ti do the same job, if I cut at 1kHz instead?
- Id appreciate some advice on suitable horn flares preferably a bit larger and more rugged than the eminence I currently posses, perhaps some alternatives in metal/aluminum or similar, same for the HF flare, Id love something similar to the one in the CS701 or the Heresy. Any advice here?
Thanks a lot and sorry for the long first post, it is no longer needed to read the whole thing for advicing but put its in context.
So here is my questions:
- Do anyone have experience with Selenium D250X driver? Is it any good? Will it work down to 500Hz? Could the D220Ti do the same job, if I cut at 1kHz instead?
- Id appreciate some advice on suitable horn flares preferably a bit larger and more rugged than the eminence I currently posses, perhaps some alternatives in metal/aluminum or similar, same for the HF flare, Id love something similar to the one in the CS701 or the Heresy. Any advice here?
Thanks a lot and sorry for the long first post, it is no longer needed to read the whole thing for advicing but put its in context.
Just a quick note that the Fane Sov. Pro 12-500 is a pretty decent driver, with a couple of caveats: there's a narrow 2.5kHz resonance which can poke out in a 2-way design; and it doesn't hold up well to high-power (1KW peak) inputs - power compression kicks in hard with the relatively old-school motor.
For home HiFi use, I expect it'll work quite well.
Chris
For home HiFi use, I expect it'll work quite well.
Chris
Thanks that’s nice to know. The off axis response in the data sheet confirms the peak so I’ll watch out for that. Hence I’m aiming for 3 way here but have little experience with midrange horns. Not sure a 1” throat will go low enough, but I guess it depends on the flare. I struggle to find suitable flares here.
By the way I agree the 12” looks old school but what is then “new” school? Is the Colossus 12MB any different in terms of power compression? It looks to have some more features like “Optimised non-inductive motor system efficiently controls magnetic flux and reduces third-harmonic and intermodulation distortion” and “Aluminium demodulation and Copper shorting rings” both of which the 12-500 doesn’t seem to highlight however it seems to have higher Xmas and lower Fs which to me indicate favorable for home use without a sub based on these bulletpoints from the data sheet: “High linearity suspension and long-throw motor system”, and “Deep bass and well balanced tonal character with extended frequency output”.
I’m sure the bass driver is the least of my problems here, mid is where I need directions.
Thanks
By the way I agree the 12” looks old school but what is then “new” school? Is the Colossus 12MB any different in terms of power compression? It looks to have some more features like “Optimised non-inductive motor system efficiently controls magnetic flux and reduces third-harmonic and intermodulation distortion” and “Aluminium demodulation and Copper shorting rings” both of which the 12-500 doesn’t seem to highlight however it seems to have higher Xmas and lower Fs which to me indicate favorable for home use without a sub based on these bulletpoints from the data sheet: “High linearity suspension and long-throw motor system”, and “Deep bass and well balanced tonal character with extended frequency output”.
I’m sure the bass driver is the least of my problems here, mid is where I need directions.
Thanks
For home use, I'm running a 1" driver down to about 1kHz. For higher SPLs, you could cross at 1.6kHz and still avoid that 2.5kHz resonance.
I moved from the Fane Sov. Pro 12-500 to 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 for PA use. Those hold up much better, but we're talking 1KW peaks per driver here - you're unlikely to hit that in a domestic space.
Chris
I moved from the Fane Sov. Pro 12-500 to 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 for PA use. Those hold up much better, but we're talking 1KW peaks per driver here - you're unlikely to hit that in a domestic space.
Chris
Two 10FH520 per side? That’s like 2400 watt and $500, about 4x a single Fane, totally outside my budget at the moment. I bet they sound great though. Maybe Faital for my next project 😉
Any advice on horn flares to fit my project? I can try the Selenium D220Ti down to 1k at first, and if it doesn’t work I can replace it with the D250x phenolic.
Any advice on horn flares to fit my project? I can try the Selenium D220Ti down to 1k at first, and if it doesn’t work I can replace it with the D250x phenolic.
Yep! Those Faitals are in a different league, but they needed to be for PA usage.
I did some measurements of a couple of drivers on an 18Sound XT120 and RCF H100 horn here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...as-good-as-it-gets.381895/page-2#post-6918386
The RCF has a bit more output down low, but the XT120 is still a very good horn.
Chris
I did some measurements of a couple of drivers on an 18Sound XT120 and RCF H100 horn here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...as-good-as-it-gets.381895/page-2#post-6918386
The RCF has a bit more output down low, but the XT120 is still a very good horn.
Chris
Dear fabricadetabaco,
Within Selenium range, you may try looking at D405. Though it has 2" exit, it seems to be useable at 500Hz, with both phenolic resin and titanium variations.
Within Selenium range, you may try looking at D405. Though it has 2" exit, it seems to be useable at 500Hz, with both phenolic resin and titanium variations.
Slowly some progress, still a long way to go.
Most likely will I build a new box of better ply as this one was not the best (more on this here https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ply-isnt-ply.384093/)
Most likely will I build a new box of better ply as this one was not the best (more on this here https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ply-isnt-ply.384093/)
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Some updates for those who may be interested; it’s alive!
At least two/thirds of it…
I’ve stuffed the box with a pillow and some foam and decides to use the Eminence APT50 and ASD1001 drivers because the Selenium is probably too heavy for any of these plastic flares.
Further neither of the Eminence drivers is probably capable on running much below 2000Hz and the same with the flares so I figure I just used a stock 2-way crossover for only one CD not connecting the APT at all at this point.
So it’s a two way with spare tweeter.. and it sounds really good. Smiling curve band for sure, just the way I like.
Box have some resonance issues so I probably need more stiffeners.
My goal was improved mid with three way though so I’ll continue the search for metal flares and will probably then get my hands on the Selenium 250 and play around with lower XO in a 3-way setup. Much fun anyway, all good.
The Fane 12 is a really strong bass driver imo, great for home use as well.
At least two/thirds of it…
I’ve stuffed the box with a pillow and some foam and decides to use the Eminence APT50 and ASD1001 drivers because the Selenium is probably too heavy for any of these plastic flares.
Further neither of the Eminence drivers is probably capable on running much below 2000Hz and the same with the flares so I figure I just used a stock 2-way crossover for only one CD not connecting the APT at all at this point.
So it’s a two way with spare tweeter.. and it sounds really good. Smiling curve band for sure, just the way I like.
Box have some resonance issues so I probably need more stiffeners.
My goal was improved mid with three way though so I’ll continue the search for metal flares and will probably then get my hands on the Selenium 250 and play around with lower XO in a 3-way setup. Much fun anyway, all good.
The Fane 12 is a really strong bass driver imo, great for home use as well.