I just don't like anything smaller than 14ga being plugged into the wall.
And I would never use solid wire other than in a cabinet or chassis.
It's more of a safety/wear and tear issue. When it comes to power, and I have the option, 14ga stranded is the minimum standard.
When my wife buys a skinny little extension cord, I make her take it back.
Call me chicken but, it's an easy enough standard to stick to.
And I would never use solid wire other than in a cabinet or chassis.
It's more of a safety/wear and tear issue. When it comes to power, and I have the option, 14ga stranded is the minimum standard.
When my wife buys a skinny little extension cord, I make her take it back.
Call me chicken but, it's an easy enough standard to stick to.
David,
I don't believe you.
I don't believe you.
are you telling us you remove all the 0.5sqmm and 0.75sqmm and 1.0sqmm and 1.25sqmm connection cords supplied as standard on most electrical equipment and replace them with 14ga and expect us to believe THAT !!
Hi David,
yes, when you have the option applies to all electrical equipment connected to the mains.
Even allowing for your doubled current consumption due to running at half voltage, adopting 14ga as your standard seems overboard for all your new builds.
What is the current limit for a 3core 14ga mains cable?
With only two cores carrying any significant current is the limit any different?
yes, when you have the option applies to all electrical equipment connected to the mains.
Even allowing for your doubled current consumption due to running at half voltage, adopting 14ga as your standard seems overboard for all your new builds.
What is the current limit for a 3core 14ga mains cable?
With only two cores carrying any significant current is the limit any different?
AndrewT said:
Andrew, you seem to be arguing about his preference..
Kinda like arguing with him because he likes the color purple..😕
Given a preference, I'd also stay larger than 16 guage. #16 has a confined rating of 13 amps, 14 at 17 amps. Should I plug it into a 20 amp service, I like the extra capacity.
Doesn't mean things will blow up with #16, just my preference.
Cheers, John
Andrew. Get a life.
Your argument makes no sense. It's a very simple preference. I'm not saying it's the right or only way. Just my preference.
As for stranded VS solid: too easy.
PS What jneutron said!😀
Your argument makes no sense. It's a very simple preference. I'm not saying it's the right or only way. Just my preference.
As for stranded VS solid: too easy.
PS What jneutron said!😀
Hi,
I am not arguing for or against David's preference.
David, you are entitled to your opinion and you can fit any size of cable you believe to be safe, or even safe enough.
I am asking ( and I see now stated for 16ga) the current capacity of 14ga & 16ga cable,
If we take the lower figure of 13A and apply a voltage of 110Vac we find the 16ga is suitable (safe) for upto 1400VA if it is fused correctly for the cable rating.
Most of my equipment is many times lower than this.
On the grounds of safety one does not NEED to fit 14ga when equipment is rated at only 100Va or 200VA or even 500VA.
What about equipment that is rated at <20VA?
I believe that safety wise 110Vac and 16ga cable can supply most of the requirements for electrical equipment in a household.
I will not even try to persuade you about the dangers of using single core for flex duties. No argument here and particularly pertinent for mains flex duty.
John,
you raise a valid point.
Using a smaller rated cable than the socket outplet is fused at.
We in the UK are protected from such idiocy. We must fuse at the plug top for the CABLE size that is down stream of the fuse. Not that popular a rule outside the UK.
We also use 230/240Vac and then 16ga goes to double the VA rating.
Now I want to move back to the advantage of using a smaller gauge cable when looking for attenuation of spurious high frequency spikes that comes along with the 50/60Hz mains signal.
I believe that the slightly higher resistance of a smaller cable will attenuate the spurious signal more than a larger cross section cable.
I hear you are so far silent on this.
There is also a small advantage on using a smaller number of larger cores in the stranding (skin effect) provided the cable still meets a flex standard providing adequate longevity for mains duty.
Silver defeats the low resistance advantage but single core excells in the second.
But, I still cannot agree wasting all that silver on a mains connector.
I am not arguing for or against David's preference.
David, you are entitled to your opinion and you can fit any size of cable you believe to be safe, or even safe enough.
I am asking ( and I see now stated for 16ga) the current capacity of 14ga & 16ga cable,
If we take the lower figure of 13A and apply a voltage of 110Vac we find the 16ga is suitable (safe) for upto 1400VA if it is fused correctly for the cable rating.
Most of my equipment is many times lower than this.
On the grounds of safety one does not NEED to fit 14ga when equipment is rated at only 100Va or 200VA or even 500VA.
What about equipment that is rated at <20VA?
I believe that safety wise 110Vac and 16ga cable can supply most of the requirements for electrical equipment in a household.
I will not even try to persuade you about the dangers of using single core for flex duties. No argument here and particularly pertinent for mains flex duty.
John,
you raise a valid point.
Using a smaller rated cable than the socket outplet is fused at.
We in the UK are protected from such idiocy. We must fuse at the plug top for the CABLE size that is down stream of the fuse. Not that popular a rule outside the UK.
We also use 230/240Vac and then 16ga goes to double the VA rating.
Now I want to move back to the advantage of using a smaller gauge cable when looking for attenuation of spurious high frequency spikes that comes along with the 50/60Hz mains signal.
I believe that the slightly higher resistance of a smaller cable will attenuate the spurious signal more than a larger cross section cable.
I hear you are so far silent on this.
There is also a small advantage on using a smaller number of larger cores in the stranding (skin effect) provided the cable still meets a flex standard providing adequate longevity for mains duty.
Silver defeats the low resistance advantage but single core excells in the second.
But, I still cannot agree wasting all that silver on a mains connector.
AndrewT said:
I believe David has concerns over durability. Me too, actually.
AndrewT said:
On this side of the pond, we have to do that for wires in the wall. But on the user side of the sheetrock, anarchy rules. It's possible to use a wire that will glow red without the breakers tripping.
AndrewT said:
I didn't see any discussion on this.
There will be an insulation minimum thickness, so if the guage goes down, the inductance will rise. As to sheer resistance vs attenuation, the actual number differences are incredibly small, and probably of no significance. So I wouldn't personally worry about that part.
AndrewT said:
Again, diminishing returns, I don't think anybody can easily measure any difference in situ.
AndrewT said:
I concur. Other parameters that the builder has no control over will dominate...L, C..loop geometry..
Cheers, John
I concur with the waste of silver on the mains . How many out there have wasted good money on those mega-buck gold plated AC plugs? The only plus I can see with gold is a corrosion /oxidation issue.
I think Tom is making a point for the many many Noobs that surf this forum long before they build.
I don't think he was criticizing you. Everyone has the right to spend or do whatever he thinks might improve the sound.
Heck, I'd like to try some of those fancy CAT 5 speaker cables some time.
I don't think he was criticizing you. Everyone has the right to spend or do whatever he thinks might improve the sound.
Heck, I'd like to try some of those fancy CAT 5 speaker cables some time.
I agree with this...VERY MUCH!
I would say for all other things, such as internal wiring for an amp like the audio signal input, minimum wire gauge is 18. For PSU stuff like mains power, secondaries on the transformer, etc...the gauge would need to be at least 14.
I would say for all other things, such as internal wiring for an amp like the audio signal input, minimum wire gauge is 18. For PSU stuff like mains power, secondaries on the transformer, etc...the gauge would need to be at least 14.
By the way, Tom, I think that harping over the concern of how good something will sound due to the plating of the 120 plug is a little overboard if you ask me...But then again, I really don't know all of the benefits of it so I should just keep my mouth shut.
DJ Exprice said:
If you think mentioning something once is harping then yeah you should keep your mouth shut.
tom1356 (earlier post on this thread) : " ... Silver is the only metal that doesn't arc. That is the reason that silver wire and silver connectors sound better. It is also the reason contact enhancing treatments are less effective with silver connectors.
Some systems may have problems that are to big for silver wire to make a difference in, which is partly responsible for some people not hearing a difference. ... If you have a revealing system and good ears you will hear more detail and a lower noise floor with silver. ..."
This is great information. I always knew that there was good reason for the use of stranded silver, silver plated copper and silver solder for line level interconnects and small signal wiring (like tone arm/cartridge leads, etc.) ... but never gave it much thought until I read the above.
... and that explains why all the power plugs on the power cords on my boat arc after a very short amount of time / usage. I suppose now I will have to go over all the boat wiring and re-do the solder junctions with silver solder, then plate all of the connectors. (No wonder ship to ship and ship to shore radio is so unreliable.)
As for silver plated wire and silver wire on the power cords of audio ... I suppose it could be over kill in some places, except in those areas close to the sea shore where that pesky salt air can cause (as tom says above) arcing and extra corrosion on the connections. (Tom: You are in the Boston area ... are you close to the water?)
Now, has anyone got a good reading resource for this information? How about info about the interaction between gold plated stuff and silver wires (and silver solder, etc.) ?
Also since electrons travel down the outside of the wire, does it do any good to use solid silver or will silver plated wire do as well (or better)?
😕
Some systems may have problems that are to big for silver wire to make a difference in, which is partly responsible for some people not hearing a difference. ... If you have a revealing system and good ears you will hear more detail and a lower noise floor with silver. ..."
This is great information. I always knew that there was good reason for the use of stranded silver, silver plated copper and silver solder for line level interconnects and small signal wiring (like tone arm/cartridge leads, etc.) ... but never gave it much thought until I read the above.
... and that explains why all the power plugs on the power cords on my boat arc after a very short amount of time / usage. I suppose now I will have to go over all the boat wiring and re-do the solder junctions with silver solder, then plate all of the connectors. (No wonder ship to ship and ship to shore radio is so unreliable.)
As for silver plated wire and silver wire on the power cords of audio ... I suppose it could be over kill in some places, except in those areas close to the sea shore where that pesky salt air can cause (as tom says above) arcing and extra corrosion on the connections. (Tom: You are in the Boston area ... are you close to the water?)
Now, has anyone got a good reading resource for this information? How about info about the interaction between gold plated stuff and silver wires (and silver solder, etc.) ?
Also since electrons travel down the outside of the wire, does it do any good to use solid silver or will silver plated wire do as well (or better)?
😕
FastEddy said:
I do live right on the ocean. I have no experience with silver plated wire so I can't tell you if it will work well.
This website will give you some answers.
http://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp.htm
FYI: " ... Pure silver also has the highest thermal conductivity, whitest color, the highest optical reflectivity (although it is a poor reflector of ultraviolet light), and the lowest contact resistance of any metal. ..." From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver ... but you guys have probably already googled this.
😱
(That cool-amp link is great ... looks like I'll have to set up a plating shop ... preferably in Oaxaca, Mexico, the central American center for silver mining for silver jewlery ...)
😱
(That cool-amp link is great ... looks like I'll have to set up a plating shop ... preferably in Oaxaca, Mexico, the central American center for silver mining for silver jewlery ...)
If you go to a bike shop they might have some Teflon tubes which are put on the gear and brake cables to protect the paint from getting scratched.
its not used anymore because cable donuts are preferred.
otherwise you can get some regular cable housing and take out the Teflon sleeve (or even leave it in to protect the silver)
It looks like this stuff
http://www.zeusinc.com/teflon_g/Default.htm?source=g_teflon3&gclid=CKm3oJyorokCFQggSQodNSaRQw
its not used anymore because cable donuts are preferred.
otherwise you can get some regular cable housing and take out the Teflon sleeve (or even leave it in to protect the silver)
It looks like this stuff
http://www.zeusinc.com/teflon_g/Default.htm?source=g_teflon3&gclid=CKm3oJyorokCFQggSQodNSaRQw
Silver has is pluses. But silver also oxidizes/tarnishes rapidly. I believe Car Products or Mcmaster-carr has various sizes of heatshrink tubing by the roll in maybe 5-10' lengths. Back in the olden days the stuff your looking for was referred to as spaghetti (not to be confused with pasta)or plastic sleeving.🙂
XEAGLEKEEPER: " Silver has its pluses. But silver also oxidizes/tarnishes rapidly. ..."
" ... Electrical and electronic products, which need silver's superior conductivity, even when tarnished. For example, printed circuits are made using silver paints, and computer keyboards use silver electrical contacts. ..." Again from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver
XEAGLEKEEPER: " ... I believe Car Products or Mcmaster-carr has various sizes of heatshrink tubing by the roll in maybe 5-10' lengths ..."
But Man Oh Man, thanks for the leads for the heat shrink and the Huge gauge silver wiring!. (I had forgotten how crazy those Car Tunes folks were. (Polyolefin Yellow-Green Thin-Wall Tubing !! // 10 Ga. Reference Power Wire // Stinger SHPM4 HPM Series 4 Gauge Silver Car Audio Power Wire !!!)
" ... Electrical and electronic products, which need silver's superior conductivity, even when tarnished. For example, printed circuits are made using silver paints, and computer keyboards use silver electrical contacts. ..." Again from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver
XEAGLEKEEPER: " ... I believe Car Products or Mcmaster-carr has various sizes of heatshrink tubing by the roll in maybe 5-10' lengths ..."
But Man Oh Man, thanks for the leads for the heat shrink and the Huge gauge silver wiring!. (I had forgotten how crazy those Car Tunes folks were. (Polyolefin Yellow-Green Thin-Wall Tubing !! // 10 Ga. Reference Power Wire // Stinger SHPM4 HPM Series 4 Gauge Silver Car Audio Power Wire !!!)
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