The best way in my mind is any concrete or stone or some synthetics. Not thick, may be 1 - 2 cm - should be enough.
May be, the layout, groundplan should not be flat, but turned. To stiffen the front and to get easy a larger front - acoustic, cut off.
"Fabric". Yes.
And do not forget the basics, stands - the amps are untouchable,-)
May be, the layout, groundplan should not be flat, but turned. To stiffen the front and to get easy a larger front - acoustic, cut off.
"Fabric". Yes.
And do not forget the basics, stands - the amps are untouchable,-)
Cumbb, So, you are saying to use a single solid core wire of what we would call 22 gauge here in the USA? I have experienced more clarity and dynamics when I played a little bit with thin silver wire. I had a friend who suggested lots of runs of various thicknesses of solid core wire. I never bought the various gauges of wire. I did experience more bass with more runs of 14 gauge. However, when compared to multiple runs of 12 gauge, the additional bass seemed to slow down.
Do you have any pictures of speakers, stands or projects you have built or liked?
I plan to try tuning my amp stands sideways as an experiment. The sides are open. You would move my amps into a metal chassis?
Sincerely,
Benjamin
Yes. I know these experiences: the more thick the more bass,-) Later the reason, if you try a lot.
I would move every amp into stone or metal chassis. But these, your, are un-touchable,-! Should be,-) Good enough, but, may be, there will be a little very big step. Later.
Stand sideways or at the wall. Metal/stone. Some dampings at right points. It should not "pling". Yes. I would try.
At moment I do listen per Sica LP165.38 in a compact box: BR Si165 Bausatz im Angebot bei SpectrumAudio-Spezialvertrieb für Breitbandlautsprecher und mehr
Not my idea and very hard tuned. Without LRC as example.
And there is a pair Gradient W160 AL 8, enclosed in a compact concrete box. Wonderful. NEVER you get the sound, the cleanness, clearness, spaciousness, homogenity by wooden material (for 20 years I do build concrete-speakers,-)
And there is a pair of big OB, 12 x DY 1256U. Very good constructed. But for a dance-studio. A dream, a very big dream. Not a thing for little rooms. Wednesday I will deliver. Photo in little room or in hall,-?
I would move every amp into stone or metal chassis. But these, your, are un-touchable,-! Should be,-) Good enough, but, may be, there will be a little very big step. Later.
Stand sideways or at the wall. Metal/stone. Some dampings at right points. It should not "pling". Yes. I would try.
At moment I do listen per Sica LP165.38 in a compact box: BR Si165 Bausatz im Angebot bei SpectrumAudio-Spezialvertrieb für Breitbandlautsprecher und mehr
Not my idea and very hard tuned. Without LRC as example.
And there is a pair Gradient W160 AL 8, enclosed in a compact concrete box. Wonderful. NEVER you get the sound, the cleanness, clearness, spaciousness, homogenity by wooden material (for 20 years I do build concrete-speakers,-)
And there is a pair of big OB, 12 x DY 1256U. Very good constructed. But for a dance-studio. A dream, a very big dream. Not a thing for little rooms. Wednesday I will deliver. Photo in little room or in hall,-?
Yes - There are many directions to go, and most of them are wrong.
With all due respect, I've built all of the approaches mentioned here, and many more, as well as heard quite a few. Most are a waste of time.
If you don't understand Open Baffle, and why woofers are normally put in boxes, you will not understand the trade-offs needed to make OB sound right. Sure, you can build a "different sounding" sort of speaker by slapping a driver on a board, but different isn't always better. Done right, with the proper drivers, baffle, crossovers etc, Open Baffle can be wonderful. Usually, it isn't. I've heard a lot of them.
I know that is a buzz kill, but it's reality.
With all due respect, I've built all of the approaches mentioned here, and many more, as well as heard quite a few. Most are a waste of time.
If you don't understand Open Baffle, and why woofers are normally put in boxes, you will not understand the trade-offs needed to make OB sound right. Sure, you can build a "different sounding" sort of speaker by slapping a driver on a board, but different isn't always better. Done right, with the proper drivers, baffle, crossovers etc, Open Baffle can be wonderful. Usually, it isn't. I've heard a lot of them.
I know that is a buzz kill, but it's reality.
Yes - There are many directions to go, and most of them are wrong.
With all due respect, I've built all of the approaches mentioned here, and many more, as well as heard quite a few. Most are a waste of time.
If you don't understand Open Baffle, and why woofers are normally put in boxes, you will not understand the trade-offs needed to make OB sound right. Sure, you can build a "different sounding" sort of speaker by slapping a driver on a board, but different isn't always better. Done right, with the proper drivers, baffle, crossovers etc, Open Baffle can be wonderful. Usually, it isn't. I've heard a lot of them.
I know that is a buzz kill, but it's reality.
This is such an open and honest post, it's truly inspiring !!
Hi Pano,
Maybe you had more patience back in 2005 when you put up with my emails and helped me modify my Sonic Impact amp. It turned out real good BTW and I still have it.
I have been listening to my back loaded horns for eight years now. I have at least $1500 into the components 1" apple ply material I used. They are well tweaked and dialed in (by ear). Don't go by the pictures, I move them around. I have used them with the SI, a Cary Audio Rocket 88 and most recently my 45 SET amps. Over about the same period of time I have listened a good many hours to my friend's Jamo 909 OB's. Obviously the Jamo's would not work with my SET amp, and I think they would be a disaster in my room. My room is a fraction the size of my friend's room. Perhaps it is the size, perhaps that it opens into another room, making a T shaped room. Perhaps it is the long chimney of the fireplace. Perhaps it is absorption many layers thick on the back wall and ceiling, keeping the bass waves from cancelling each other. Or, perhaps it is my taste. I hated one of the mega dollar rooms at music matters lately because of the bass. I HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET MY BASS JUST RIGHT with what I have.
Reading about the thinness of some OB projects gave me encouragement to try one. There were two consoles at my mother's house. One belongs to me and the other was destined to go to the dump. Neither was sealed in the back so I could hope the drivers could have a high Qts. I could do a quick experiment with both from junk material in my garage and not have anything to lose. Frankly I was stunned! Of course they didn't do everything better than my BIB's, but overall they both were more to my liking! The first experiment was almost but not quite efficient enough. The second one plays far more loud than I care to listen. They actually sound a little bass heavy for my taste, though I really like increased speed and clarity of the bass. That does not mean that I like a top heavy sound. I don't! Nor does it mean that I don't like bass. I do. I do have plenty of volume and bass for my room/taste with the 14 inch by 9 inch vintage drivers.
So, for the first time in eight years, I got the bug to build another pair of speakers. I noticed that most of the buzz on the forums about OB's started around 2000 to 2005. Then after a few years seemed to kind of slow down (as far as number of posts). I figured I would listen to what others had to say before making my next move.
Maybe I am being bull headed and passing up the opportunity to get the best possible sound. I really do understand that most OB's won't work for a lot of people in a lot of rooms. I don't consider my OB experiment perfect. However, I am encouraged because it has plenty of volume and bass for me. I am not looking for a Jamo 909. Not in my room. I don't listen as loud as most people. My experiments lead me to believe that the right OB could take me in the direction I want to go (sonically) in my room. I may want to save and spend more money than I had anticipated. Maybe I would love the Widow Maker you pointed me to earlier. Maybe it would be too much for my room. I don't know. Your last post almost sounded like you have given up on OB's. I think you are just concerned that I won't have enough efficiency or bass? I don't want to strain my amp, but I think in my case (taste/room) I probably don't have to have it go as loud or have as much bass as some require. The idea of not having bad lumps in the frequency response is desirable. I would like to play my speakers with all of the three sources I have (CD, turntable and two track reel to reel tape.) I don't have computer audio or digital eq.
Sincerely,
Benjamin
Maybe you had more patience back in 2005 when you put up with my emails and helped me modify my Sonic Impact amp. It turned out real good BTW and I still have it.
I have been listening to my back loaded horns for eight years now. I have at least $1500 into the components 1" apple ply material I used. They are well tweaked and dialed in (by ear). Don't go by the pictures, I move them around. I have used them with the SI, a Cary Audio Rocket 88 and most recently my 45 SET amps. Over about the same period of time I have listened a good many hours to my friend's Jamo 909 OB's. Obviously the Jamo's would not work with my SET amp, and I think they would be a disaster in my room. My room is a fraction the size of my friend's room. Perhaps it is the size, perhaps that it opens into another room, making a T shaped room. Perhaps it is the long chimney of the fireplace. Perhaps it is absorption many layers thick on the back wall and ceiling, keeping the bass waves from cancelling each other. Or, perhaps it is my taste. I hated one of the mega dollar rooms at music matters lately because of the bass. I HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET MY BASS JUST RIGHT with what I have.
Reading about the thinness of some OB projects gave me encouragement to try one. There were two consoles at my mother's house. One belongs to me and the other was destined to go to the dump. Neither was sealed in the back so I could hope the drivers could have a high Qts. I could do a quick experiment with both from junk material in my garage and not have anything to lose. Frankly I was stunned! Of course they didn't do everything better than my BIB's, but overall they both were more to my liking! The first experiment was almost but not quite efficient enough. The second one plays far more loud than I care to listen. They actually sound a little bass heavy for my taste, though I really like increased speed and clarity of the bass. That does not mean that I like a top heavy sound. I don't! Nor does it mean that I don't like bass. I do. I do have plenty of volume and bass for my room/taste with the 14 inch by 9 inch vintage drivers.
So, for the first time in eight years, I got the bug to build another pair of speakers. I noticed that most of the buzz on the forums about OB's started around 2000 to 2005. Then after a few years seemed to kind of slow down (as far as number of posts). I figured I would listen to what others had to say before making my next move.
Maybe I am being bull headed and passing up the opportunity to get the best possible sound. I really do understand that most OB's won't work for a lot of people in a lot of rooms. I don't consider my OB experiment perfect. However, I am encouraged because it has plenty of volume and bass for me. I am not looking for a Jamo 909. Not in my room. I don't listen as loud as most people. My experiments lead me to believe that the right OB could take me in the direction I want to go (sonically) in my room. I may want to save and spend more money than I had anticipated. Maybe I would love the Widow Maker you pointed me to earlier. Maybe it would be too much for my room. I don't know. Your last post almost sounded like you have given up on OB's. I think you are just concerned that I won't have enough efficiency or bass? I don't want to strain my amp, but I think in my case (taste/room) I probably don't have to have it go as loud or have as much bass as some require. The idea of not having bad lumps in the frequency response is desirable. I would like to play my speakers with all of the three sources I have (CD, turntable and two track reel to reel tape.) I don't have computer audio or digital eq.
Sincerely,
Benjamin
Hi Benjamin, glad to hear you still have the little Sonic Impact and that it's still working well for you. I also still have one or two kicking around. Still enjoy them.
No, I have not given up on open baffle speakers at all. My present system is OB, and super nice, but it is in a rather unusual space. And they need a good bit of power.
My semi-rant above is simply a warning to those who choose to go down the OB path that they are not like box speakers. That is both good and bad.
Good because you won't get a box sound, interact well with the room and they are easy to build.
Bad because of the loss of bass that needs to be taken into account and the need for some distance from the wall.
The ONLY way to combat the loss of bass with open baffle is more power. Whether you cut the mids and highs with passive EQ or boost the lows with active EQ, the need for more power is the same.
Thanks for the Jamo reference, that's the sort of thing it's good to know you've listened to. I've built some double 15 plus fullrange OBs that I liked well enough. My friend who I gave them to loves them. Not every speaker has to have massive bass, I agree. But too many OBs Ive heard were very top heavy. "Such clean bass!" Yes, so clean it's been totally erased. Hard to have bad bass if there isn't any.
That said, of you can get the tonal balance into reasonable shape, you don't have to have huge speakers to enjoy OB. And you'll have the advantage of a bass that is cleaner than most box speakers can hope for. The typical "box sound" is what turns off a lot of us about box speakers - they sound boxy. Just be sure you really have OB bass, not an illusion of bass.
By all means go for the OB system. Just be sure you understand the problems and limitations when you do. You'll end up with a better speaker and a lot more listening enjoyment.
No, I have not given up on open baffle speakers at all. My present system is OB, and super nice, but it is in a rather unusual space. And they need a good bit of power.
My semi-rant above is simply a warning to those who choose to go down the OB path that they are not like box speakers. That is both good and bad.
Good because you won't get a box sound, interact well with the room and they are easy to build.
Bad because of the loss of bass that needs to be taken into account and the need for some distance from the wall.
The ONLY way to combat the loss of bass with open baffle is more power. Whether you cut the mids and highs with passive EQ or boost the lows with active EQ, the need for more power is the same.
Thanks for the Jamo reference, that's the sort of thing it's good to know you've listened to. I've built some double 15 plus fullrange OBs that I liked well enough. My friend who I gave them to loves them.
Not every speaker has to have massive bass, I agree. But too many OBs Ive heard were very top heavy. "Such clean bass!" Yes, so clean it's been totally erased. Hard to have bad bass if there isn't any.That said, of you can get the tonal balance into reasonable shape, you don't have to have huge speakers to enjoy OB. And you'll have the advantage of a bass that is cleaner than most box speakers can hope for. The typical "box sound" is what turns off a lot of us about box speakers - they sound boxy. Just be sure you really have OB bass, not an illusion of bass.
By all means go for the OB system. Just be sure you understand the problems and limitations when you do. You'll end up with a better speaker and a lot more listening enjoyment.
Ha! Thanks. Was just trying to bring some reality to the picture.
Well, it is SO NICE to read an accurate report on what the open baffle concept (and execution) is all about. The "box" has long been established as an obstacle and necessity at the same time. To be sure, there are a far greater number of boxy sounding boxes in this world, than there are good ones. In my opinion, the
almost wild fire like rampart popularity of the OB is because of it's relative simplicity compared to building a "proper enclosure". Along with that, though, comes a massive mis-understanding of what it takes to accomplish a fine OB system. I have tried building some and have also auditioned a few over the years, and to these ears, they have never sounded "right".
Different strokes, etc. The only way I have found to get a non boxy sound from a box, is through use of a vibration-canceling mounting technique, where by each action is canceled by an equal and opposite reaction.
That ole boy Newton. He was the greatest
Thank you so much for getting back with me on this! I built my BIB's thinking I was not getting the full spectrum with my Voigt Pipes. Both speakers have changed over the years. Making lots of bass traps and experimenting with placement has subjectively increased the bass in my room. It usually moves me in the right direction. However, the better bass I get, the more I am inspired to try to make it better. I have Jim Smith's book about Getting Good Sound. He says if you don't get the bass right, you will never be happy. It was the shoutyness of my fostex based speakers that bugged me in the beginning. However, due to numerous "tweaks", including my new SET amps, that is no longer an issue. These SET amps surprisingly have better bass than my Cary Rocket 88. By the way my slightly modified SI also has more quick, tuneful bass as well, though the Cary goes lower. Since I built my BIB's (which I have mostly listened to ever since) I have asked myself this question. "To have bass or not to have bass." I think my room perhaps the "T" shape contributes to I big hump around 80 Hz. I am mostly guessing. I don't have anyway (that I trust) to measure, other than my ears. I used to hear it with my old ADS L900's. I even hear it with both OB experiment speakers.
I found that if I get the OB speakers WAY out into the room in just the right place, that the bass sounds more "right" to me than what I have ever had. The OB with the larger (14 x 9 inch) driver seems to have a hump in the upper bass/lower midrange that I can't completely get rid of by placement. I may cut the baffle down to see what the effect really sounds like.
I was probably lucky with these two unknown drivers. I expect that they both of a highish Qts. I think the large RCA's are alnico. I figured that if I got this far (not perfect, never expect perfect) without spending a cent. I figured I could get even better results if I spent a little money and built some tried and proven design. I am considering taking some of the cheap out of the equation and holding off until I have a more realistic budget.
I am torn between the idea of one single very high quality (perhaps field coil) driver on a large (JE Labs/Wafferdale) baffle, and a small wide range with bass assistance. The bass driver powered by a separate amp with filters etc.
As far as one driver solution goes, I was looking at some by Musicalaffairs before posting on the forum. Obviously there are several limitations including a sound stage on the floor. The thing that made me wonder about this is that making my BIB a two way in a sense, I eventually decided to go supertweeterless due to a loss of "integrity" of the signal. I theorize that it has to do with phase. I borrowed a nice ribbon tweeter from a friend, playing with various amount of capacitance and attenuation. In the end I decided I could live without them. Yes, I missed the excitement they provided, but decided I am happy without. My theory is that the one driver solution (although never perfect) may be the cat's meow if never pushed to very loud volumes.
I am curious though how I would like a system with separate bass driver/amp. I think I made my original post because I wanted to try that to get an idea of how it compares to what I have done so far (with OB experiments) before I shell out more on something more serious.
I apologize that I have to run to my next job before proofreading this. Forgive me if it doesn't make any sense!
Sincerely,
Benjamin
I found that if I get the OB speakers WAY out into the room in just the right place, that the bass sounds more "right" to me than what I have ever had. The OB with the larger (14 x 9 inch) driver seems to have a hump in the upper bass/lower midrange that I can't completely get rid of by placement. I may cut the baffle down to see what the effect really sounds like.
I was probably lucky with these two unknown drivers. I expect that they both of a highish Qts. I think the large RCA's are alnico. I figured that if I got this far (not perfect, never expect perfect) without spending a cent. I figured I could get even better results if I spent a little money and built some tried and proven design. I am considering taking some of the cheap out of the equation and holding off until I have a more realistic budget.
I am torn between the idea of one single very high quality (perhaps field coil) driver on a large (JE Labs/Wafferdale) baffle, and a small wide range with bass assistance. The bass driver powered by a separate amp with filters etc.
As far as one driver solution goes, I was looking at some by Musicalaffairs before posting on the forum. Obviously there are several limitations including a sound stage on the floor. The thing that made me wonder about this is that making my BIB a two way in a sense, I eventually decided to go supertweeterless due to a loss of "integrity" of the signal. I theorize that it has to do with phase. I borrowed a nice ribbon tweeter from a friend, playing with various amount of capacitance and attenuation. In the end I decided I could live without them. Yes, I missed the excitement they provided, but decided I am happy without. My theory is that the one driver solution (although never perfect) may be the cat's meow if never pushed to very loud volumes.
I am curious though how I would like a system with separate bass driver/amp. I think I made my original post because I wanted to try that to get an idea of how it compares to what I have done so far (with OB experiments) before I shell out more on something more serious.
I apologize that I have to run to my next job before proofreading this. Forgive me if it doesn't make any sense!
Sincerely,
Benjamin
... use of a vibration-canceling mounting technique, where by each action is canceled by an equal and opposite reaction.
That ole boy Newton. He was the greatest
I call "decouple" and "clamp". Am I "right"-?
In my mind the only choice to get a relative clean, clear sound with a wooden-box. But the box is to stiffen and to dampen very well, inside AND outside.
An OB to use is not easy, but possible. In my mind.
Most OB fans seems to enjoy the "boxless" sound, but to me, the notes never fully develop. I really don't want to go any further into this, because my own
personal tastes and observations about OB design, are usually met with some degree of hostility. As has been mentioned previously, 2 watts operating power for an OB is really not realizable. In comparison though, 2 watts for horn loaded mid bass is almost enough.
The attached picture shows one of the possible mounting schemes for what I was describing. This picture DOES NOT show the complete bass system, just the mounting scheme.
Attachments
Yes,-) This and much much much more,-!
I was afraid to be allone in this forum "by experts, for experts". Experts in copying commercial "b*******t" only, it seems (as example, horror to look "pictures of your pass-diy-amps" at moment: How to built obviously dreadful sound,-)
In my mind it is possible to build an OB for 2 x 2 Watt. But the aim should not be max. level. Except you do use 12 x 12", as example,-D And, my experience, a lot of space in the background or very good dampened background should be. But this generally for OBs.
My mind.
And thank you,-!
I was afraid to be allone in this forum "by experts, for experts". Experts in copying commercial "b*******t" only, it seems (as example, horror to look "pictures of your pass-diy-amps" at moment: How to built obviously dreadful sound,-)
In my mind it is possible to build an OB for 2 x 2 Watt. But the aim should not be max. level. Except you do use 12 x 12", as example,-D And, my experience, a lot of space in the background or very good dampened background should be. But this generally for OBs.
My mind.
And thank you,-!
That's alright, we're all friends here.
I did an experimental OB with lots of DSP, lots of power, low-Q drivers, 1x15" a side. I was hitting peaks in the 300w range on the LF amp, though I had EQ'd down to 20Hz. Some of the best bass I've ever heard - no room interactions. That said, 300w/ch into some nice 15"s that were using more than their linear excursion shouldn't be necessary for domestic use, but that's OB for you.
I'd say 2x15" would be a minimum if good LF extension (<40Hz) is required.
Chris
I'm also thinking to build an OB for my small room 2.6mx2.6m, still waiting for alpair10 from singapore distro. my first choice is to put them in fhxl, but looking at OB pictures is soooo interesting. my local seller has eminence 15" delta and beta series, maybe someday i will consult here to choose on which speaker, baffle size, and xo value
@Benjamin
my friend, why do you limit your self on 2W amplifier? open your eyes and mind, there are many other amazing SE class a design in this forum. my first love to SE amplifier was from my friend ultimate 45 tube amp, i remember exotic parts were used such as lundahl & hashimoto iron, wkz caps, wbt connectors etc which will cost around $3k, but then I decide to build FW clone. Then with the same amount of money, i can build different topology of amplifiers from 5W to 25W. Now i have more options of speaker driver
another reason why i dont choose tube amp because there are too many voodoo involved when you discuss with your tube friend, there can be many explanation on how resistor, cables,connectors sound different while on FW clone, you dont have to worry about it
or maybe you can start building OB with Alpair10 on top of 2 eminence 15", i'd love to see that
@Benjamin
my friend, why do you limit your self on 2W amplifier? open your eyes and mind, there are many other amazing SE class a design in this forum. my first love to SE amplifier was from my friend ultimate 45 tube amp, i remember exotic parts were used such as lundahl & hashimoto iron, wkz caps, wbt connectors etc which will cost around $3k, but then I decide to build FW clone. Then with the same amount of money, i can build different topology of amplifiers from 5W to 25W. Now i have more options of speaker driver
another reason why i dont choose tube amp because there are too many voodoo involved when you discuss with your tube friend, there can be many explanation on how resistor, cables,connectors sound different
while on FW clone, you dont have to worry about itor maybe you can start building OB with Alpair10 on top of 2 eminence 15", i'd love to see that
I'm also thinking to build an OB for my small room 2.6mx2.6m, still waiting for alpair10 from singapore distro. my first choice is to put them in fhxl, but looking at OB pictures is soooo interesting. my local seller has eminence 15" delta and beta series, maybe someday i will consult here to choose on which speaker, baffle size, and xo value
@Benjamin
my friend, why do you limit your self on 2W amplifier? open your eyes and mind, there are many other amazing SE class a design in this forum. my first love to SE amplifier was from my friend ultimate 45 tube amp, i remember exotic parts were used such as lundahl & hashimoto iron, wkz caps, wbt connectors etc which will cost around $3k, but then I decide to build FW clone. Then with the same amount of money, i can build different topology of amplifiers from 5W to 25W. Now i have more options of speaker driver
another reason why i dont choose tube amp because there are too many voodoo involved when you discuss with your tube friend, there can be many explanation on how resistor, cables,connectors sound different
or maybe you can start building OB with Alpair10 on top of 2 eminence 15", i'd love to see that
The beauty of the DHSET is in the operation zone of micro and mili watts. Pushing these devices as much as what you would need for most anything other than a horn loaded compression driver, would be to push them beyond their limitations, and you might just end up with a worse sound quality than that of your expectations. The chosen amplifier really should match the application.
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