My understanding is the heat of something as small as the tip causes enough friction to continually bring the vinyl to a brief hot temperature right at the surface.
Nope. Not enough energy and the tip is not in contact with the vinyl for long enough. But it made a great story so the myth refuses to die.
Repeated plays will lightly polish the vinyl and that was demonstrated in the 50s.
Speaking of stories, and hopefully trying to get things sort of back towards track. I'm sure everyone has heard how someone tried to wet play a record and afterwards it wouldn't dry play anymore? To me a wet play is like a wet wash, so a record may get noisier, but should settle down after a few plays again. In theory testable given patience and several copies of a record.
Repeated plays will lightly polish the vinyl and that was demonstrated in the 50s.
Speaking of stories, and hopefully trying to get things sort of back towards track. I'm sure everyone has heard how someone tried to wet play a record and afterwards it wouldn't dry play anymore? To me a wet play is like a wet wash, so a record may get noisier, but should settle down after a few plays again. In theory testable given patience and several copies of a record.
What are you scrubbing with and what is your soak time?
Why use Ilfotol and TergiKleen, are they not nearly the same?
Does EDTA really do something? It binds to metals which make up probably hardly any contaminants.
Mmmm. But we're talking about microscopic ridges and furrows in a V shaped groove. Small enough to refract light and needing a powerful microscope to see them in all their glory.
It wouldn't have to be much... One day I'll search out the coefficient of expansion of LP vinyl, I'm sure some brave soul somewhere has determined it...
I guess I don’t really care either way.
But I can say some albums are WRECKED from over play - presumably along with really bad worn out stylus. So it can’t always be low friction.
I found that *some* LPs were a little noisier after a spin on the Moth cleaner, but after a play they'd settled down to be quieter. It didn't make me feel confident that the Moth was doing the sort of job I wanted.
LPs I've cleaned ultrasonically don't give me more audible clicks. Those that remain are better defined. Having poked around in the Vinyl Studio click detection results, most of the new clicks are 70-100 samples in duration. I'm sampling at 192khz, so that's an incredibly short period of time.
It's a testament to the cartridge/stylus/arm design & manufacture that it's capable of resolving mechanical events of that short a duration. LP may be a fundamentally flawed medium, but it's an incredibly impressive fundamentally flawed medium
If there are more audible clicks appearing on the LP I'd be inclined to think the UC bath was contaminated, either with debris in the water or other cleaning fluid at the start, or (more likely), from previous cleaning cycles.
70 samples is a pretty major disruption. Most clicks I would expect to be 1-2 samples. Either you've got some pretty beaten records or something is taking time to recover, mechanically or electrically.
I think we need to differentiate between friction noise (more of a crackle) than a click. I might expect the crackle to increase but clicks should reduce or stay the same. A clean scratch is still a scratch.
I think we need to differentiate between friction noise (more of a crackle) than a click. I might expect the crackle to increase but clicks should reduce or stay the same. A clean scratch is still a scratch.
The only thing I've got to go on is what VS gives me. According to it, 79 samples spans ~0.0004s and that fits with 79/(192*1000).
Perhaps I've misunderstood what a sample is, but I'd been assuming it was, essentially, a measurement of a value at point in time and at some resolution defined by the bit depth. But with only one or two samples you'd not be able to plot a curve to be able to actually spot a click...
Or have I got the wrong end of this entirely?
I've noticed that in some cases the more continuous background noise is different after UC. It seems to be lower level and have more texture, moving from a kind of rumbly swoosh to a pipply noise but nothing I'd describe as crackly. Certainly nothing is appearing where there was no noise at all. Everything I've cleaned has come out static free.
My only disappointment with UC has been the failure to shift that background muck on some LPs. But then, so far, I've not found anything that will. Even PVA seems unable to draw it out. I've been wondering about enzyme cleaners, but they seem to be rarer than hens teeth in the UK and correspondingly expensive.
My only disappointment with UC has been the failure to shift that background muck on some LPs. But then, so far, I've not found anything that will. Even PVA seems unable to draw it out. I've been wondering about enzyme cleaners, but they seem to be rarer than hens teeth in the UK and correspondingly expensive.
Here's something fun. My original UC seems to have a weak/dead frequency generator on the back side as far as I can tell, maybe more than one. So the crackling sound I thought might be from that.
I ordered a new UC that cost a bit more off of eBay. This one is made nicer for sure. However after the first 12 minute run I smell awful fried electronics smell... I block the room off for a long time.
When I contact the seller on eBay I explain to them it isn't the smell of dust being burned off a little from the heater, and that I had more than sufficient water levels. The seller returns to me offering $10 refund when I paid $208. WTF. Ya, $10 for a potential house burner... OK. Hopefully I don't have to get eBay involved, but if I do I know they'll give them the shaft.
I ordered a new UC that cost a bit more off of eBay. This one is made nicer for sure. However after the first 12 minute run I smell awful fried electronics smell... I block the room off for a long time.
When I contact the seller on eBay I explain to them it isn't the smell of dust being burned off a little from the heater, and that I had more than sufficient water levels. The seller returns to me offering $10 refund when I paid $208. WTF. Ya, $10 for a potential house burner... OK. Hopefully I don't have to get eBay involved, but if I do I know they'll give them the shaft.
My mixture was suggested by a chemist on another forum. I already had the TergiKleen, and supposedly the Ilfotol makes one of the two Tergitols more effective. Not sure of the details, but it works. As I understand it, just Ilfotol diluted will work just fine.
The EDTA is for targeting mineral deposits from tap water. Not sure if does much, as the one stubborn record still hasn't cleaned up as much as I'd like, but nor is it hurting anything, so it's just for peace of mind in the end.
As far as scrubbing, I use a Listener Select brush on an Okki Nokki. I put no more downward pressure than the weight of the brush itself, and agitate in circular motions, each direction, for about a minute tops, vacuum the brush and then the record, then similar effort for about 30 seconds with a lab grade water rinse pass. I actually do 2 rinse passes, the first rinse being a heavily diluted mix of Isopropyl and Hepastat 256, just enough to prevent mold growth and static build-up. Final rinse is always pure water.
Having said that, I chatted with Harry Weisfeld last year at the VPI house. He cleans multiple records at a time in his ultrasonic tank, just pure water and a couple of drops of Triton-X, I believe, then rinses and vacuums them off on a VPI Cyclone. If you're keen on using the ultrasonic for the scrubbing action, that'd probably work just fine. My motor is a DIY one with a 5 revs per HOUR speed which is very tedious to use and not as easy to swap batches as the Vinyl Stack Ultra Spin would be.
My current record fluid sidesteps all that tedium, and I'm done with a record in 2-3 minutes tops. No more long cleaning sessions fussing with multiple records, just grab a disc, clean it, play it. Much better.
If you can't remove it, there's no difference.
I have 20-30 LPs that were already damaged/dirty when purchased new. I've no idea what is in the grooves, but it an't just music. I've never been able to shift it and all the copies I exchanged for at the time had the same flaws. This was my life during the 70s and 80s.
I suffered. Nobody knows how much I suffered.
I discovered my cart was out of phase due to reverse markings. This made the sound worse. It's not as bad now.
However I must warn you guys be careful if you order an Ultrasonic on eBay from "worthorder". My unit seemed ok out of box but as soon as I turn it on for 12 minutes with plenty of water in it, I smell burning electronics smell. I opened the bottom once smell cleared a few days later. Could easily detect it was a bad transformer on SMPS as smell originates from it, and it's soldered in wrong (probably crushed at one point so couldn't get it to sit right).
Seller sends me a new powercord when I tell him send me a new PSU and we should be all good. Then seller proposes I get 50% payment back and have it fixed locally... Hmm nope. I shipped back today. I feel almost bad for him but the fact he can't figure it out and probably has a returned one somewhere with good PSU... I would not recommend them.
However I must warn you guys be careful if you order an Ultrasonic on eBay from "worthorder". My unit seemed ok out of box but as soon as I turn it on for 12 minutes with plenty of water in it, I smell burning electronics smell. I opened the bottom once smell cleared a few days later. Could easily detect it was a bad transformer on SMPS as smell originates from it, and it's soldered in wrong (probably crushed at one point so couldn't get it to sit right).
Seller sends me a new powercord when I tell him send me a new PSU and we should be all good. Then seller proposes I get 50% payment back and have it fixed locally... Hmm nope. I shipped back today. I feel almost bad for him but the fact he can't figure it out and probably has a returned one somewhere with good PSU... I would not recommend them.
Question for all, how strong does your ultrasonic feel?
I can stick a finger in and it feels bubbly. But then hypochondria sets in and I think I feel it awhile after. I wouldn’t want to leave finger in long, may eat too much skin?
A spoon I feel it, but not a lot holding end if handle, more if I gently touch fingers to side of spoon too. Klein screwdriver feel nothing unless I touch metal (has rubber grip). Adjustable alligator feels the most.
I think the newer one with failing PSU felt stronger. Curious about everyone elses?
I can stick a finger in and it feels bubbly. But then hypochondria sets in and I think I feel it awhile after. I wouldn’t want to leave finger in long, may eat too much skin?
A spoon I feel it, but not a lot holding end if handle, more if I gently touch fingers to side of spoon too. Klein screwdriver feel nothing unless I touch metal (has rubber grip). Adjustable alligator feels the most.
I think the newer one with failing PSU felt stronger. Curious about everyone elses?
IMHO a long, but informative reading https://thevinylpress.com/app/uploads/2020/05/PAC-Vinyl-Records_2020-05-19.pdf
Interesting... Mine does not seem to be... seems to clean cuticles and polish the nail a little
Is there a difference in the vibration frequency between you guys?
Maybe:
* Destroyer is 60kHz
* japtim is 40kHz?
Andy