Re: Sachiko Box Dimensions
Frugal-Horn site link is in my signature. Once you get there, click on the Spawns - Plans link. Under the Sachiko title are a list of drivers. Click that link and you will get the current plans as a pdf.
dave
TerribleT said:
Frugal-Horn site link is in my signature. Once you get there, click on the Spawns - Plans link. Under the Sachiko title are a list of drivers. Click that link and you will get the current plans as a pdf.
dave
I will be sure to stencil "Not Tested " onto the side of my Cabinets! Somehow I dont think that this will detract from the fact that these are fine SOUNDING loudspeakers. Ultimately it is the LISTENING which is the most important and final test, and it is the loudspeakers that I listen to, not a sheet of written specifications/measurements.
Back to business
Scott, These things need 2 people to move them, so I would appreciate if you or others could give some advice re best expected room placement. As I said earlier, I simply put them close to where my old speakers were, having spent a fair bit of effort in fine tuning their placement, and I used a method I read about "somewhere..."(yes very scientific and all...) I improved the Sachiko's soundstage/imaging by increasing the distance between them slightly , but have yet to consider relationship to corners and distance from the rear wall, also I have them toed in. Room is 9x7metres, standard ceiling height. It would help my aching back to have some idea where best to place them so can have a reference starting point-if this is at all possible. Any experience from other Sachiko owners out there would be happily accepted. Thanks again.
Scott, These things need 2 people to move them, so I would appreciate if you or others could give some advice re best expected room placement. As I said earlier, I simply put them close to where my old speakers were, having spent a fair bit of effort in fine tuning their placement, and I used a method I read about "somewhere..."(yes very scientific and all...) I improved the Sachiko's soundstage/imaging by increasing the distance between them slightly , but have yet to consider relationship to corners and distance from the rear wall, also I have them toed in. Room is 9x7metres, standard ceiling height. It would help my aching back to have some idea where best to place them so can have a reference starting point-if this is at all possible. Any experience from other Sachiko owners out there would be happily accepted. Thanks again.
OT: Hey Jeremy, make your own longboards? I was snowboarding near SLC just a few days ago...good times.
My back knows the feeling, believe me.
Depends on the room, quite honestly. What works for one room & with one speaker won't for another, so like everything, YMMV.
All the double horns, irrespective of type are best placed at least 3ft from side-walls in my experience. The huge reflection off said wall did unpleasent things to the lower midrange (roughly from 200Hz - 500Hz) in all the the test boxes I've built thus far. You could hang something to damp the reflection, though this will have other effects that I can't really predict from here.
The long-path cabinets are high-gain designs, and are intended to be pulled out from the rear wall. 2ft - 4ft was roughly what I had in mind. Moving them closer to the rear wall will increase gain further, but risk thickening up the midband too, as you'd expect. They will require a minimum listening distance of 8ft to get the full benefits, preferably more if you can. 12ft - 15ft or so would be ideal. One thing any cabinet of this layout shares is placement sensitivity: move it an inch & you'll hear the difference. TC noted this when he built his first, and he was spot on.
Distance between the speakers & toe-angle depends on the width of soundstage you favour. The old equilateral triangle is a useful guide, though I tend to favour a narrower distance between the cabinets. Again, depends on the room etc. I generally like them angled in to cross about 2ft behind my head, but that's a personal thing.
FWIW, Derek cunningly mounted his (the black pair on the F-H site) on castors for just this reason. Very 1970s, and I gather rather effective.
As I say, all this will vary depending on your room & preferences. If its a lively room, I'd advise keeping them further from boundaries than if you have a more damped acoustic.
Hope that's of use, for what it's worth.
Depends on the room, quite honestly. What works for one room & with one speaker won't for another, so like everything, YMMV.
All the double horns, irrespective of type are best placed at least 3ft from side-walls in my experience. The huge reflection off said wall did unpleasent things to the lower midrange (roughly from 200Hz - 500Hz) in all the the test boxes I've built thus far. You could hang something to damp the reflection, though this will have other effects that I can't really predict from here.
The long-path cabinets are high-gain designs, and are intended to be pulled out from the rear wall. 2ft - 4ft was roughly what I had in mind. Moving them closer to the rear wall will increase gain further, but risk thickening up the midband too, as you'd expect. They will require a minimum listening distance of 8ft to get the full benefits, preferably more if you can. 12ft - 15ft or so would be ideal. One thing any cabinet of this layout shares is placement sensitivity: move it an inch & you'll hear the difference. TC noted this when he built his first, and he was spot on.
Distance between the speakers & toe-angle depends on the width of soundstage you favour. The old equilateral triangle is a useful guide, though I tend to favour a narrower distance between the cabinets. Again, depends on the room etc. I generally like them angled in to cross about 2ft behind my head, but that's a personal thing.
FWIW, Derek cunningly mounted his (the black pair on the F-H site) on castors for just this reason. Very 1970s, and I gather rather effective.
As I say, all this will vary depending on your room & preferences. If its a lively room, I'd advise keeping them further from boundaries than if you have a more damped acoustic.
Hope that's of use, for what it's worth.
Thanks, good starting point and kind of what I have "intuitively"followed to start with. Castors would be kind of nice, but does that not defeat the coupling thing with the floor? Bit like putting them on a spike etc.
I think coupling cabinets with the floor is a myth anyway, conseder the weight of the cabinet compared to the mms of the driver.
Whatever the theory - Isolating it from the floor would make more sense. Use a few layers of carpet or some squash balls in divots in the bottom of the cabinet.
Or here's an idea for concealing the castors on the sides, could be dressed up a bit to resemble the steps in the horn mouth.
I'd use 8 smaller castors per cabinet to keep the feet narrow, it'd look tacked on if the feet are too big.
Whatever the theory - Isolating it from the floor would make more sense. Use a few layers of carpet or some squash balls in divots in the bottom of the cabinet.
Or here's an idea for concealing the castors on the sides, could be dressed up a bit to resemble the steps in the horn mouth.
I'd use 8 smaller castors per cabinet to keep the feet narrow, it'd look tacked on if the feet are too big.
Attachments
Nice idea.
They should still be rather firmly attached to the floor, and the enclosures are no lightweights, so I doubt the difference would be terrible. I haven't tried them myself, so I can't speak from personal experience.
They should still be rather firmly attached to the floor, and the enclosures are no lightweights, so I doubt the difference would be terrible. I haven't tried them myself, so I can't speak from personal experience.
hey guys.. quick question.. befor i wire and seal these bad boys up.. did you guys line the cabinet with anything? besides a little damping material n the front chamber.. did you do anything else? just wondering while its still easy to get into it. the interior baffles/steps are raw mdf.. and the back sides are veeneer with stain and top coat.
Just wondering.. thanks.
Jeremy
Just wondering.. thanks.
Jeremy
Jeremy, Hello
I used nothing at all either as a liner nor as damping(what is your rationale for the damping?). I sealed the timber to hopefully avoid any moisture problems down the track as I live very close to the ocean , subtropical, and the chipboard is likely to absorb such, despite it being high density.
I listened again last night and have spent a bit of time with positioning. Very small changes make an audible difference so is worthwhile experimenting with small changes in position. Rickie Lee Jones- wonderful! I am happier and happier(despite them being "untested"!)
Best wishes
I used nothing at all either as a liner nor as damping(what is your rationale for the damping?). I sealed the timber to hopefully avoid any moisture problems down the track as I live very close to the ocean , subtropical, and the chipboard is likely to absorb such, despite it being high density.
I listened again last night and have spent a bit of time with positioning. Very small changes make an audible difference so is worthwhile experimenting with small changes in position. Rickie Lee Jones- wonderful! I am happier and happier(despite them being "untested"!)
Best wishes
coupling and fiber
I only used a bit of polyfill on the top and bottom of the compression chamber in mine. I used just a little bit of hot glue to keep it in place. I built two caster "platforms" out of a piece of leftover plywood for moving the speakers around to find the best position for the Sachiko's. Then, I took them off once I found the best placement position. However, I ended up liking them up off the floor on the caster platforms. Spikes also worked well. The Sachiko and the Saburo, in my room, are VERY sensitive to placement. They sound "good" anywhere, but they sound mind blowing when you get them dialed in. 😀
I only used a bit of polyfill on the top and bottom of the compression chamber in mine. I used just a little bit of hot glue to keep it in place. I built two caster "platforms" out of a piece of leftover plywood for moving the speakers around to find the best position for the Sachiko's. Then, I took them off once I found the best placement position. However, I ended up liking them up off the floor on the caster platforms. Spikes also worked well. The Sachiko and the Saburo, in my room, are VERY sensitive to placement. They sound "good" anywhere, but they sound mind blowing when you get them dialed in. 😀
Jeremy, which driver will you be using with these? Looking forward to more pics.
Anyone know how much these things weigh each.
Anyone know how much these things weigh each.
Yup, Dial them in and they produce a wonderful audio experience. And if birch ply does indeed "sound better" than my humble old chipboard, then these are indeed superb value for money, and pretty easy to construct with no funny angles etc.
Thanks for advice re considering lifting off the floor and using damping , I will try these in the future. I can advise using driver fixings that have a threaded "lug" on the inside which becomes embedded on the timber. Means can remove drivers multiple times without destroying the hold of wood screws alone. Available Madisound.
mine weigh 62 kg each with drivers in.
Thanks for advice re considering lifting off the floor and using damping , I will try these in the future. I can advise using driver fixings that have a threaded "lug" on the inside which becomes embedded on the timber. Means can remove drivers multiple times without destroying the hold of wood screws alone. Available Madisound.
mine weigh 62 kg each with drivers in.
Sweet, Thanks guys.. Yea, i was just thinking some polyfill as directed by Scottmoose.
ecir38 - i am going to be using the FE206's.. i have to wait a couple of weeks for the cash flow situation to ease up.. but i thought i would wire, and get everything ready. that way i can just put drivers in and go. It will also give me time to touch up some finish work and work on my "quasi" baffle. Its actually just a 3/4 thick surround for the driver frame.. to conceal the screws and such. i have a couple of designs that i am building here at work. i don't think it will mess with the sound much.. they aren't that thick.
i will post some photos when i get them done.
Jeremy
ecir38 - i am going to be using the FE206's.. i have to wait a couple of weeks for the cash flow situation to ease up.. but i thought i would wire, and get everything ready. that way i can just put drivers in and go. It will also give me time to touch up some finish work and work on my "quasi" baffle. Its actually just a 3/4 thick surround for the driver frame.. to conceal the screws and such. i have a couple of designs that i am building here at work. i don't think it will mess with the sound much.. they aren't that thick.
i will post some photos when i get them done.
Jeremy
Thank you guys.
Something I find particularly interesting here -we have two cabinets, built from different materials -on the one hand, particle board, on the other, veneered MDF (I think so anyway, from the pictures). And as Derek has occasionally posted too, we have a third too, from birch ply.
Same cabinets, different materials... I wonder what the difference in sound will be like between the boxes. The particleboard box interests me, as, despite being relatively cheap, it's by no means a bad material.
Something I find particularly interesting here -we have two cabinets, built from different materials -on the one hand, particle board, on the other, veneered MDF (I think so anyway, from the pictures). And as Derek has occasionally posted too, we have a third too, from birch ply.
Same cabinets, different materials... I wonder what the difference in sound will be like between the boxes. The particleboard box interests me, as, despite being relatively cheap, it's by no means a bad material.
Scott, you are correct. I have Sapele veneer on mdf. Stained, sealed, and then 2 layers of top coat. The internals are just raw mdf.. thats what spurred my question on covering/damping/lining.. etc.
Jeremy
Jeremy
And a good question it is. There's no definative answer to be honest, as there's no consensus about the materials... we've had some very lively & entertaining debates / threads on the subject, which I for one have greatly enjoyed. Each material has different stiffness / weight values, different damping properties (for e.g. layers in a material provide some self damping due to boundary losses as energy attempts to transfer from one to another) & sonic characteristics.
In your case, the MDF is what we might call the 'brute-force' solution (sounds disparaging but I'd apply the same remark to Bentley, Jenson & Bristol: three of my favourite car manufactuers). The sheer mass pushes panel resonance downward, below the passband of the cabinet, so they're not activated, while the heavy bracing provided by the folding scheme keeps it as stiff as you can get from MDF (which isn't intrinsically a very stiff material). The poor tonality of many boxes built from MDF is primarily because they aren't massive enough. There is a downside to avoiding the resonance issue with the material though (aside from back-breaking weight) -energy storage & slow dissipation, which is a time-domain issue rather than a frequency response one. There are other issues of course -reflectivity etc., but IMO, they are secondary to it's stiffness / weight ratio.
Here's a thought -you could try taking a leaf out of Olney's book. Olney was the man responsible for the Acoustic Labyrinth, which was basically a transmission line 30 years before Bailey coined the term. It was a damped pipe, but in AL's case, rather than stuffing, the pipe was lined with material. The first path to the back of the cabinet, as you're using MDF, could be lined with thin felt, top & bottom, & the top & bottom of the air-cavity the same. Make sure it's relatively thin -you don't want thick material for this purpose or you'll cause more problems than you solve. Could be an interesting thing to try.
(PS -nice veneer BTW)
In your case, the MDF is what we might call the 'brute-force' solution (sounds disparaging but I'd apply the same remark to Bentley, Jenson & Bristol: three of my favourite car manufactuers). The sheer mass pushes panel resonance downward, below the passband of the cabinet, so they're not activated, while the heavy bracing provided by the folding scheme keeps it as stiff as you can get from MDF (which isn't intrinsically a very stiff material). The poor tonality of many boxes built from MDF is primarily because they aren't massive enough. There is a downside to avoiding the resonance issue with the material though (aside from back-breaking weight) -energy storage & slow dissipation, which is a time-domain issue rather than a frequency response one. There are other issues of course -reflectivity etc., but IMO, they are secondary to it's stiffness / weight ratio.
Here's a thought -you could try taking a leaf out of Olney's book. Olney was the man responsible for the Acoustic Labyrinth, which was basically a transmission line 30 years before Bailey coined the term. It was a damped pipe, but in AL's case, rather than stuffing, the pipe was lined with material. The first path to the back of the cabinet, as you're using MDF, could be lined with thin felt, top & bottom, & the top & bottom of the air-cavity the same. Make sure it's relatively thin -you don't want thick material for this purpose or you'll cause more problems than you solve. Could be an interesting thing to try.
(PS -nice veneer BTW)
interesting idea. i suppose that could be done even after the sides are put on.. with the driver out.. you could reach all the way back in there..
so just top and bottom of the first chamber (the one where we discussed polyfill).. and the first path back huh? not the sides?
i suppose i could tack some on and if i didnt like the sound rip it off.. i will see what happens.
(like i said.. i am still a couple weeks out on the drivers. Anyone reading this have a set of FE206 they want to sell. on the cheap?)
Just thought i would ask.
Jeremy
so just top and bottom of the first chamber (the one where we discussed polyfill).. and the first path back huh? not the sides?
i suppose i could tack some on and if i didnt like the sound rip it off.. i will see what happens.
(like i said.. i am still a couple weeks out on the drivers. Anyone reading this have a set of FE206 they want to sell. on the cheap?)
Just thought i would ask.
Jeremy
Correct. Damping the sides would probably be overkill, but the idea behind these cabinets is that they provide a decently performing generic box which can then be adjusted & tweaked to suit your individual system / room / taste.
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