Member
Joined 2002
Re: Re: Nad 2200 Blows up my Tweeters.
Um the nad amplifier has PLENTY of power and it has nothing to do with the speakers power capabilities.
Like i said i had 30$ radio shack 15 watt speakers connected to my nad amp and My Phase linear amplifier and never blew any of the speakers. And i still don't have speaker rated over 70 watts..
Nigel Goodwin said:
Um the nad amplifier has PLENTY of power and it has nothing to do with the speakers power capabilities.
Like i said i had 30$ radio shack 15 watt speakers connected to my nad amp and My Phase linear amplifier and never blew any of the speakers. And i still don't have speaker rated over 70 watts..
Re: Re: Re: Nad 2200 Blows up my Tweeters.
Depends how loud you run it! - do you turn your's up until the clipping lights come on?.
jleaman said:
Depends how loud you run it! - do you turn your's up until the clipping lights come on?.
Lets go back to basics here... There are two factors that are leading to the tweeter destruction here.
1.) The tweeters are surely being abused by too much level in which case a light bulb would limit the power to the tweeter.
2.) The amp is clipping because it is trying to drive a load at a high level and it cannot do so cleanly. Forget about where the damn volume control is set.
Some here like the NAD and some of us don't based on their performance and ability to drive loads. Logic would dictate that you do both things mentioned and take a hard look at the results.
I suggest that you borrow a different amplifier that will drive a 2 ohm load and audition your speakers.
Some would say that the amplifier has plenty of power but if your hitting your clip lights then a change needs to be made here. Either turn the amp down below clipping or replace the amp.
1.) The tweeters are surely being abused by too much level in which case a light bulb would limit the power to the tweeter.
2.) The amp is clipping because it is trying to drive a load at a high level and it cannot do so cleanly. Forget about where the damn volume control is set.
Some here like the NAD and some of us don't based on their performance and ability to drive loads. Logic would dictate that you do both things mentioned and take a hard look at the results.
I suggest that you borrow a different amplifier that will drive a 2 ohm load and audition your speakers.
Some would say that the amplifier has plenty of power but if your hitting your clip lights then a change needs to be made here. Either turn the amp down below clipping or replace the amp.
Hi there,
You might want to take a look at this ebay Item number: 170045754226 It's a used pair of Kef T33 SP1191 the ones used in the 104/2s.
Regards
Anthony
You might want to take a look at this ebay Item number: 170045754226 It's a used pair of Kef T33 SP1191 the ones used in the 104/2s.
Regards
Anthony
My imagination is telling me that your output waveform may be extremelly distorted.
If you play Rock, for instance, heavy metal...where the audio is already hardly distorted....and including that your amplifier is producing its own distortion because overloaded.... this way you
will have enormous DC....switching DC having also the standard reference ground floating too....this signal is able to cross the tweeter passive crossover capacitor...and this is more destructing than everything.
My suggestion is to include more tweeters, using series and parallell connections to produce a more strong load for those distorted signals that can represent many times more energy going to your tweeter.
Or...to include protective resistors in series with the tweeter, accepting the loss of treble level.
To reduce the amplifier's power..... using the volume knob till you have no "soft clipping"...may be helpfull too.
If you are NOT using Heavy metal, distorted tones, or overdriven amplifier system...well.... under that sittuation i have any idea related what is going on....only the same ideas our friends already published in this thread...anything more than that.
I have friends that do not perceive clipping...and they are not idiots...they just apreciate that distortion...the same distortion is beeing used..long time ago, by guitar players....they say that sound turns more loud and agressive.... that's it...distortion listeners...and they are many!
To include an extra Zobel filter...soldered directly over the speaker terminals is not a bad idea too...because some oscilation ...dinamic oscilation may exist too.... standard 10 ohms and 100N (250V) will be a guarantee of oscilation supression...or... at least, will reduce its amplitude (voltage)...one to each speaker...it can be soldered over the woofer terminals....if this will turn not helpfull..... also will not be any devil to your sound system too.
regards,
Carlos
If you play Rock, for instance, heavy metal...where the audio is already hardly distorted....and including that your amplifier is producing its own distortion because overloaded.... this way you
will have enormous DC....switching DC having also the standard reference ground floating too....this signal is able to cross the tweeter passive crossover capacitor...and this is more destructing than everything.
My suggestion is to include more tweeters, using series and parallell connections to produce a more strong load for those distorted signals that can represent many times more energy going to your tweeter.
Or...to include protective resistors in series with the tweeter, accepting the loss of treble level.
To reduce the amplifier's power..... using the volume knob till you have no "soft clipping"...may be helpfull too.
If you are NOT using Heavy metal, distorted tones, or overdriven amplifier system...well.... under that sittuation i have any idea related what is going on....only the same ideas our friends already published in this thread...anything more than that.
I have friends that do not perceive clipping...and they are not idiots...they just apreciate that distortion...the same distortion is beeing used..long time ago, by guitar players....they say that sound turns more loud and agressive.... that's it...distortion listeners...and they are many!
To include an extra Zobel filter...soldered directly over the speaker terminals is not a bad idea too...because some oscilation ...dinamic oscilation may exist too.... standard 10 ohms and 100N (250V) will be a guarantee of oscilation supression...or... at least, will reduce its amplitude (voltage)...one to each speaker...it can be soldered over the woofer terminals....if this will turn not helpfull..... also will not be any devil to your sound system too.
regards,
Carlos
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mebbe your caps are bad?
i dunno, but maybe there's a problem with your caps..
i would think if they were bad, they'd just stop letting signal through-- but maybe you've got either a short on your crossover board, or a fried resistor that's just passing straight current.
regardless.. how loud are you pushing your speakers? and what kind of speaks are they?
d.
i dunno, but maybe there's a problem with your caps..
i would think if they were bad, they'd just stop letting signal through-- but maybe you've got either a short on your crossover board, or a fried resistor that's just passing straight current.
regardless.. how loud are you pushing your speakers? and what kind of speaks are they?
d.
Guys, really, get your heads out of your collective butts anyway.
There is an easy solution here....drive down to the local car parts store and purchase a 211-2 General Motors type dome light or a #561 light and install it after the crossover to the tweeter. When you get done trying to re invent the wheel here you will see that I am correct and the speaker won't continue to go thru tweeters. The tweeter is rated for aprox 10-12 watts and this is when the light will turn on. Problem solved!!!!
Personally I think the amp is a big piece of overpowered junk suited more for an anchor than an amplifier but that is my opinion.
Before you start speculating about oscillation turn the damn amp on and let it sit there and run without signal. Is it heating up? I don't think so. Are there problems with cables? NO! Are there problems with operation and the operator? Very possibly in my opinion.
Do the tweeter mod then borrow an amplifier that will DRIVE the load!!! Very simple again guys......What is the load worst case? What is the amplifier capable of driving? Duh!!
There is an easy solution here....drive down to the local car parts store and purchase a 211-2 General Motors type dome light or a #561 light and install it after the crossover to the tweeter. When you get done trying to re invent the wheel here you will see that I am correct and the speaker won't continue to go thru tweeters. The tweeter is rated for aprox 10-12 watts and this is when the light will turn on. Problem solved!!!!
Personally I think the amp is a big piece of overpowered junk suited more for an anchor than an amplifier but that is my opinion.
Before you start speculating about oscillation turn the damn amp on and let it sit there and run without signal. Is it heating up? I don't think so. Are there problems with cables? NO! Are there problems with operation and the operator? Very possibly in my opinion.
Do the tweeter mod then borrow an amplifier that will DRIVE the load!!! Very simple again guys......What is the load worst case? What is the amplifier capable of driving? Duh!!
burnedfingers said:
Have you actually tried your suggestion on a T33? The tweeter is a ferrofluid-cooled 4 ohm unit. It is fairly sensitive and detailed, perhaps not as good as the best units out now, but probably sensitive enough to be affected by the finite (and still varying) resistance of an unlit bulb.
The 104/2 is one of the few loudspeakers designed with conjugate loading, making the impedance seen by the amplifier as basically purely resistive for the entire frequency range of operation. The impedance, if I recall, remains pretty much at 4 ohms.
Cheers
I have used this in hundreds of speakers and have graphed the before and after with no problems found. The light simply turns on limiting any further voltage/signal to the tweeter. A number of speaker manufactures NOW employ this technology that I have been using for over 25 years. I have used this in everything from bookshelf speakers to large format horns without problems. The light poses no problrm in passing the signal until you start to hit the tweeters limit. Note: I mentioned earlier that the light had to be properly sized to the tweeter. Naturally a too small a bulb would limit a larger tweeter too soon and vice versa.
As I have mentioned before I do work on very large systems and have used this technology with 100% success. This has gained popularity with some of the larger audio consultants in the field also.
Have you ever checked the resistance in a light bulb? You will find these next to nothing.
As I have mentioned before I do work on very large systems and have used this technology with 100% success. This has gained popularity with some of the larger audio consultants in the field also.
Have you ever checked the resistance in a light bulb? You will find these next to nothing.
Hi.
Putting a light bulb in series with the tweeter may be a solution but it does not get to the root of the problem.
What are you driving the amp with that it goes into output clipping at (3) ??
I suspect that the input may also be overloaded and clipping !
Andy
Putting a light bulb in series with the tweeter may be a solution but it does not get to the root of the problem.
What are you driving the amp with that it goes into output clipping at (3) ??
I suspect that the input may also be overloaded and clipping !
Andy
Well, lets look at the problem... the wattage of the tweeter is being exceeded and the tweeter is damaged/burned up. The clipping problem is not the reason the tweeter is being damaged.
The program level is very high and above the limits of the tweeter.
The clipping problem is because the amplifiers cannot handle the load and the sound pressure the owner is unleashing upon them.
Now, the input signal is high going into the preamp to have the amplifier clip at this volume control setting. Padding down the signal before it reaches the preamplifier will only cause it to clip at a higher volume control level that will be a match for the SPL level in which it was clipping at 3 before.
In order to change the tweeter delema some type of changes have to be made. I have listed some possibilities.
Operator lowers the SPL level of the system to non- concert levels and makes a mental note that this is a no no.
Owner changes amplifier to one that will handle the load.
Owner sells speakers and purchases speakers that will handle concert level SPL demands he places upon them.
Owner modifies speakers as mentioned above.
Member
Joined 2002
burnedfingers said:
I think you should pull your whole head out of your butt, then talk like you should maybe know something. EH!!
The Nad 2200 amplifier is a really good amp. Works great with all types of speakers.. Maybe it is not even the amp yet maybe the pre-amp. if your clipping light is coming on at volumes then you have other problems i have yet to clip mine at lower level's.
running radio shack 30$ speakers into a 2000$ amplifier, i think there is some points missing here. This amp can drive a-lot of loads with out problems.
Re: Nad 2200 falling into protection, burning my tweeters.
Hey guys, thanks a million for all your help.
I see that their are various options to settle my problem and the most obvious being me as the operator.
Although I think it's not right to me that I have to pay multiple thousands of dollars for a system, only to learn in the process that I was much better purchasing a couple hundred dollar system and have no problems; for the same listening level.
Giving you an idea to what level I was listening it to; my son is operating his $175.00 Sony 30 watt system louder than what I ever listened to mine with no such problems.) "How can this be loud?"
Guys, I know what loud is, and what shelf-speaker listening is. . .
Anyway, I will definatly will input the 12 v bulb into my cross overs as soon as I find tweeters, and in one reply, stated that I can install more tweeters into my system. I find that really interesting as I had that in mind, but didn't really thought it was dooable.
So, would installing more tweeters do the same job as installing a 12-v bulb, or do I need to install a bulb also?
I want to state that I have an equalizer installed between my pre-amp and amps. Don't know if it makes a difference or not. Also want to say, that I am running two 2200 amps and four 104/2, speakers in briddged mode in mono, one amp driving dual speakers, and the other amp driving the other two.
Like I stated earlier, I tried all ways of hooking them up and also running the amps in a non-bridged mode. But either way, my amps always falls into soft clipping and then always cuts into protection, then the tweeters bow up.
I think we are getting somewhere and I think, one day I may be listening to my stereo.
Thanks a lot.
Hey guys, thanks a million for all your help.
I see that their are various options to settle my problem and the most obvious being me as the operator.
Although I think it's not right to me that I have to pay multiple thousands of dollars for a system, only to learn in the process that I was much better purchasing a couple hundred dollar system and have no problems; for the same listening level.
Giving you an idea to what level I was listening it to; my son is operating his $175.00 Sony 30 watt system louder than what I ever listened to mine with no such problems.) "How can this be loud?"
Guys, I know what loud is, and what shelf-speaker listening is. . .
Anyway, I will definatly will input the 12 v bulb into my cross overs as soon as I find tweeters, and in one reply, stated that I can install more tweeters into my system. I find that really interesting as I had that in mind, but didn't really thought it was dooable.
So, would installing more tweeters do the same job as installing a 12-v bulb, or do I need to install a bulb also?
I want to state that I have an equalizer installed between my pre-amp and amps. Don't know if it makes a difference or not. Also want to say, that I am running two 2200 amps and four 104/2, speakers in briddged mode in mono, one amp driving dual speakers, and the other amp driving the other two.
Like I stated earlier, I tried all ways of hooking them up and also running the amps in a non-bridged mode. But either way, my amps always falls into soft clipping and then always cuts into protection, then the tweeters bow up.
I think we are getting somewhere and I think, one day I may be listening to my stereo.
Thanks a lot.
Have you ever tried replacing the speaker cables ? This phenomen could be caused by the amplifier starting to oscillate above some level.
This would overload the outputstage because of cross conduction and at the same time fry the tweeters.
As a simple and cheap test you could try to replace the cables with some cheap stuff available around the corner, if the amp stops activating its protection you've found the problem.
Mike
This would overload the outputstage because of cross conduction and at the same time fry the tweeters.
As a simple and cheap test you could try to replace the cables with some cheap stuff available around the corner, if the amp stops activating its protection you've found the problem.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Now, there's a very good suggestion.
By chance is there an audio mixer in the system?
-Chris
Now, there's a very good suggestion.
By chance is there an audio mixer in the system?
-Chris
Hi,
my goodness, he saved the best bit for the end.
Two 104/2 @4ohms becomes 2ohm loading.
Now apply the bridged mode half impedance and the effective load on each half of the NAD amplifier is just 1ohm.
The amp is going into protection mode due to excessive currents.
Up goes the treble content and soon after the tweeter overheats.
Get the amps out of bridged mode. Run one speaker off one channel.
my goodness, he saved the best bit for the end.
Bridged mode loads the amplifier output stage with half the speaker impedance.
Two 104/2 @4ohms becomes 2ohm loading.
Now apply the bridged mode half impedance and the effective load on each half of the NAD amplifier is just 1ohm.
The amp is going into protection mode due to excessive currents.
Up goes the treble content and soon after the tweeter overheats.
Get the amps out of bridged mode. Run one speaker off one channel.
Hi Andrew,
Good call. I missed that part. Those amps will not be happy in bridged mode at all with that load.
-Chris
Good call. I missed that part. Those amps will not be happy in bridged mode at all with that load.
-Chris
Re: Re: Nad 2200 falling into protection, burning my tweeters.
An equaliser certainly 'could' be making a difference, if you're boosting the high frequencies with it?.
But I'm confused why you're bridging it?, it seems completely pointless?, and if you're connecting the speakers in parallel it's not surprising it's overloading.
The KEF speakers are 4 ohm, so paralleling them gives only 2 ohms, as it's been fed from a bridged amplifier each effectively sees half the load - so the load per channel is only 1 ohm!.
If you've got the speakers in series, each amp sees 4 ohms, exactly as it would if you connected a single speaker to each amp - so bridging is completely pointless, either severely overloading the amp, or doing absolutely nothing!.
Hemiguy said:
An equaliser certainly 'could' be making a difference, if you're boosting the high frequencies with it?.
But I'm confused why you're bridging it?, it seems completely pointless?, and if you're connecting the speakers in parallel it's not surprising it's overloading.
The KEF speakers are 4 ohm, so paralleling them gives only 2 ohms, as it's been fed from a bridged amplifier each effectively sees half the load - so the load per channel is only 1 ohm!.
If you've got the speakers in series, each amp sees 4 ohms, exactly as it would if you connected a single speaker to each amp - so bridging is completely pointless, either severely overloading the amp, or doing absolutely nothing!.
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