Well, it's sliding, not kinetic.... but I understand what you mean. Your racing friend likely hates ABS and TCS and torque steering AWD and an LSD.
Funny, we had a '93 Acura Vigor with the MT5. Only one of five brought into the USA. On my drive home we'd merge onto the southbound 405 at Wilshire Blvd. It's a light metered on ramp with two lanes merging into one. This was in '93 with lots of Bimmers, Audis.... NOBODY ever beat me off that line. When the lights turned green, I'd dump it and leave the Bimmers and Audis wondering what kind of turbo I had in the Vigor.
Civic... Civic hatches and wagon, then CRX Si, EP3, a chain of Si's with LSD. B16C, K20Z, K24... B18C1 even a nice K22A with ATTS. Missed getting an ITR by two hours but got the Type SH. Never was happy with the tuning of the K20 in the 03 RSX-S. They fixed it in 05 but by then we had the Accord 6-6.... terrible clutch pick up but incredible midrange and top end performance. Life indeed lives only at 6000 RPM when the secondaries open and the engine races, and the GSR howls to its 8250 redline as Soichiro would approve. ;-)
But the Acuras with the ELS did sound better, and SH-AWD is awesome. Got older, realize now that if I go off the road it will hurt. Besides serial hybrids have lots of low end torque, easier to drive than my old beloved "torque less wonders"... Ask anyone who's driven an AP1 in traffic.
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Anyhow.... no one really touched on the question I made about a passive two way that can be biamped. Would it be worth it to add some DSP in there? I mean, will the amps still see the crossover? I mean, it would be fun to take a high quality two way and try this out. What kind of DSP should I use?
I got amps, I got speakers.... but my current cars have much lower redlines... but one of the does have torque vectoring iATM4.
What kind of a set up would I need? Some kind of a sound generator ( PC and DAC ), a DSP processor and a calibrated mike? It'd be fun to compare something like my little AE1 with or without DSP ( but, I don't want to rip their crossovers though... ). Not to build a speaker, but just to play around with something we already have. Make it sound different? Better? Transcend the marketing realities that bound the manufacturer.
Just like a Vigor with an MT5... wouldn't sell, a marketing failure, but those very, VERY, REALLY VERY FEW of us who had it, well, we knew better. We knew what the car could really do when unfettered from satisfying the Great Unwashed. Same with a speaker.
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Also, another thing. Back to low static friction for a speaker.
Have any of you heard the Plasmatronics? Did any of your hear them at the BA24? With Quad panels as "woofers". Flat out the best sounding thing I've ever heard. And I got Maggies, Acoustic Energy AE1s... no slouches on speed these speakers... but for "non-stickiness"... no mass is the best mass.
Practical? Err.. not really.
WAF? None, really. Seriously, none.
Sound... Ever heard the sound of a non speaker?
Perhaps all of these discussions really just have to deal with ways to bypass the effects that mass has on motion. The more mass, the more momentum and inertia. Mechanical inertia is kinetic energy, ergo the facsimile of stored energy in a capacitor, huh? Maybe if circuits had no stored energy and speakers had no mass we wouldn't be having these discussions?
Perhaps the whole enchilada between active and passive is more critical with speakers that have significant mass.
For that matter, how about the amplifier? If the speaker has mass, then you're better off with a low impedance output device that has a great damping factor. But, if the speaker has low or no mass.... hmmm.... what kind of crossover do we need then?
Maybe if the speaker has low or no mass, then we do not want a passive crossover at all... we don't want capacitors, inductors, resistors between the amp and the speaker.
All of that stores energy.
Perhaps if the speaker has low or no mass, we MUST go with an active crossover and nothing between the output of the amp and the speaker drivers,
Huh? That's another factor to consider... IMHO.
Have fun,. and remember, the sound of iVTEC reaching redline is glorious, the best sound system for a car.
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Since your primary head movement is vertical, the choice of a midrange that requires a wave guide to "tame" it's response and a tweeter with very narrow vertical dispersion for near field use is a questionable decision.
That said, you have designed a speaker with "tone control" that only requires head movement 😉
Oh, for sure, 100%, this entire build was questionable. That was part of the point. Push the envelope a bit. Unusual drivers, unusual enclosure design, unusually small space for a 3 way, unusually large crossover network. Might be more luck than anything else that it sounds as good as it does.
Also, for sure, 100%. At least its more like 30 degrees out that it really changes enough to notice. So its really like when I grab a kleenex or have to grab a book off of my shelf that I can hear it change. Choices were made. I don't regret any aspect of it. I had a lot of fun and I learned a lot throughout the build.
Everyone who races hates these things. Except we all love a clutch type 100% locking differential. OS Giken units are basically magic.
Funny you say this because I have an 04 Acura RSX type-S. It has a tune because we were unhappy with it stock. This is the wife's winter beater.
I got my mother an SH-AWD MDX. She loves it. She loves it so much she just picked up the newer one. I never liked hondas before the RSX but man, they sure do put a smile on your face. They are slow but they are super fun. The k20 doesn't do anything until 5700 then it sounds like an angry cat trying to get out of the engine bay. So fun.
I don't have answers to any of your other questions but I could talk cars all day.
You need a microphone, a measurement software like REW or DATS (to run on your computer), and a DSP such as a MiniDSP 2x4HD ($250ish) or Flex Eight ($600ish). The DSP configuration software also runs on your computer. You only need your computer to set it up, not to run it. The DSP runs by itself.
Measure the speaker before you take anything apart so you know what the baseline is.
Bypass the speaker's internal crossover entirely. Just put a 20-30uF protection capacitor on the tweeter, as a precaution against mishaps.
Redesign the Xover to your liking using DSP and use the parametric filters to fix the anomalies of the drivers. You get to re-voice the speaker however you like.
@Bmsluite
Yes, the K20A1 had that flat spot between 4 and 5K.... it's like you just sat there waiting for something to happen. The K20Z1 changed all of that and the gearing only changed, to lower ratios, so the car is faster and more fun. Also the tightly suspended back end changed, before that it bounced around in tight turns... combine that with the crappy tires of the 02, 03 and 04 and you had a fun but compromised vehicle. A couple of times, in light rain, I actually lost the back end on tight turns. Ooops!
I also had an 02 and later an 05 OTR: Odyssey Type R.
Take a top of the line Odyssey, 5AT, before VCM. Put on a big set of Bridgestone sport tires. Take an Exacto knife and an OEM Integra Type R sticker and make into an Odyssey Type R. Train kids in the back sets to LEAN into the turn, and drive it like you're being chased by the directors of the Homeowner's Association. Fun!
You should try if you ever get a chance, the Prelude SH with ATTS. First off, it has the wildest VTEC transition I've ever experienced... it just feels like a wild turbo just kicked in and the engine suddely winds up... right below 4000. Then you got ATTS which was the progenitor to SH-AWD and iVTM4.
We now have a Passport Elite with iVTM4. As heavy as it is, for us, it handles completely neutral.
@perrymarshall
I was afraid you'd say that. I'd rather not take a perfectly working, and well voiced, speaker and rip out its crossover. I doubt I could do better than Phil Jones. Same thing with the Maggies. Hmmm.... gotta think about this.
I do have some ADS C300s plate speakers. I could build a cabinet for them and easily bypass the crossover for those. Might just build a simple dipole set up with an open baffle?
The rest is all doable.
Yes, the K20A1 had that flat spot between 4 and 5K.... it's like you just sat there waiting for something to happen. The K20Z1 changed all of that and the gearing only changed, to lower ratios, so the car is faster and more fun. Also the tightly suspended back end changed, before that it bounced around in tight turns... combine that with the crappy tires of the 02, 03 and 04 and you had a fun but compromised vehicle. A couple of times, in light rain, I actually lost the back end on tight turns. Ooops!
I also had an 02 and later an 05 OTR: Odyssey Type R.
Take a top of the line Odyssey, 5AT, before VCM. Put on a big set of Bridgestone sport tires. Take an Exacto knife and an OEM Integra Type R sticker and make into an Odyssey Type R. Train kids in the back sets to LEAN into the turn, and drive it like you're being chased by the directors of the Homeowner's Association. Fun!
You should try if you ever get a chance, the Prelude SH with ATTS. First off, it has the wildest VTEC transition I've ever experienced... it just feels like a wild turbo just kicked in and the engine suddely winds up... right below 4000. Then you got ATTS which was the progenitor to SH-AWD and iVTM4.
We now have a Passport Elite with iVTM4. As heavy as it is, for us, it handles completely neutral.
@perrymarshall
I was afraid you'd say that. I'd rather not take a perfectly working, and well voiced, speaker and rip out its crossover. I doubt I could do better than Phil Jones. Same thing with the Maggies. Hmmm.... gotta think about this.
I do have some ADS C300s plate speakers. I could build a cabinet for them and easily bypass the crossover for those. Might just build a simple dipole set up with an open baffle?
The rest is all doable.
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I can see how in yesteryear that was probably true, say 20+ years ago. And maybe then it was fair to classify the ends of the spectrum so radically different...ala bow and arrow vs nuclear weapons.
Here's my idea of a current weapon comparison chart ...🙂
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I test drove one of these back in the day. Those things are wild. Back then horsepower wasn't so plentiful so I went for a 300ZX
Have you made a system with this ideal alignment?
I do find this interesting that it sort of flies in the face of conventional hifi speaker placement. Everyone always says to move it at far away from the wall as you can whereas this is showing the closer you can get it to the wall the more flat you can make it.
I did, many times, for some projects.
On the picture is Allison One. That kind of woofer placement demands 3-way loudspeaker.
Well, it is conventional, if the loudspeaker is designed that way. Many good examples through the years.
But in many rooms it is impossible to place loudspeaker close to the wall, so many loudspeakers are designed that way.
This paper explains pros and cons and what and why for on the wall loudspeaker placement, with measurements: https://jeeit.feit.ukim.edu.mk/index.php/jeeit/article/view/347/328
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What is the measurement method used then? Just right dead middle of the two down the center of the baffle as if it were one driver?
Will read this paper too, thanks
Both approach have some validity. Although with typical commercial loudspeakers, the close to wall placement usually needs electronic equalization, to tame the excessive low frequency energy.
Woofer-mid crossover frequency of Allison One and Allison Two is pretty low at 350 Hz, so it doesn't matter much if it is at the center or off-axis.
This approach maybe "solves" 1/6 of the problems related to the 1rst of all subseqent wall reflections for a time window within a room: There usually are 6 walls for a room, and a decay time also during which sound is wildly bouncing around. So the idea and the presented "solution" in this paper is flawed right from the begin in terms of a sight of the whole 4d (room and time) space. Nota bene: Same goes for the "solution" I mentionned before resorting to a Horbach-Keele array.
We certainly all agree that the direct (non-reflected) sound is most important for the perception of the audio content of a signal. Whereas indirect sound is secondary room information. The more direct sound, the more unsmeared original audio content. And the later the 1st room reflection occurs, the better. So delaying the arrival of this 1st room reflection (== room information) is a legitimate goal. One also can try to minimize the onset of the room's information, e.g. by partially absorbing or reflecting/diffusing the 1st room reflection away from the signal path.
And then comes DSP, in terms of digital room correction. The omnipotent, beloved DRC ... DONT !!! DRC does nothing but mixing some inversed room characteristics to all audio information. This will also mess up direct sound informations with "corrective" room signal content which certainly does not belong to be there.
As a consequence: If you have a problem with your room, then correct the causes in the room. Don't "treat" the speaker or the audio signal. The "D" in "DRC" will mess more things up than treat them, thus maybe innocently making you blame DSP.
So you think Allison and JBL (and Keele) designs are not real solutions of that problem, but irrelevant "'maybe' solutions"?! Do you know any better "solution" than these "flawed"?
Of course there are (at least) 6 walls/surfaces in a room, but the closest wall/surface has the greatest impact on the frequency response at the listening position - do you agree? Other 5 walls have much smaller impact - they are not 5/6 of the whole problem! Solving ("maybe"???) the biggest problem with the nearest wall, which has the biggest impact on the frequency response hardly can be described as "flawed".
the "D" stands for Disc. You change the original content of the disc in order to...?!
Room...
All rooms have problems acoustically, but low frequency problem roots are very hard or impossible to tame by correcting the room.
OTOH yeah, using fullrange automatic DRC at the listening position is usually not gives the desired effect. But sometimes it does.
I posted related to the linked paper, not to the work of Allison, Horbach, Keele, JBL. And in terms of avoiding/minimizing the reflection from the very specific single wall behind the speaker placements, the paper certainly descibes a valable variant.
I do not blame Allison, Horbach, Keele, JBL ... designs at all. They have primarly been elaborated for Pro/Touring audio where there is a need for compromizing over a large 3D space. Sound energy reflection aspects on acoustically hard containments will certainly also be weighted into a Pro overall approach. Most of us here, me included, are DIY hobbyists instead. We can compromize differently. And as such, we certainly are very happy that Allison, Horbach, Keele, JBL ... did theirs job well. We can freely take profit out of their work.
Yes. It's the time arrival delay of the first reflection at the listening position that matters. And there is more about it than "closed" walls behind speakers. A monopole in front of a wall will behave very differently than a dipole (straight 90° and in any toed-in angle), also in terms of the reflective pattern. Another one: The "closest" but in these terms potentially most overlooked wall in a domestic environment might be the wall behind you, listening to the music while sitting on the couch placed at the back wall of the room.
As mentionned before, any attempt to delay the income of the 1st reflection is ok. The intent of my writing was to point out that there are also other points to consider within a complete listening environment. I hope you noticed that with my Horbach-Keele approach I humbly included the mention that I myself lined up into this logic of flawed-if-single measures.
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