Hi all,
I am sorry I reacted so strongly to Rudi. I realize he was trying to make peace. I do not agree with some things in his post, but I agree with the sentiment. Peace Rudi, lets go have a beer.
Cheers!
Russ
I am sorry I reacted so strongly to Rudi. I realize he was trying to make peace. I do not agree with some things in his post, but I agree with the sentiment. Peace Rudi, lets go have a beer.
Cheers!
Russ
Well Russ I am sorry that you do not accept my apology. It is extremely sincere and I was hoping that it would restore any misgivings. But unfortunately I see that it is meaningless in your eyes.
As far as I my last statement goes. I am only confirming the sequence of inspiration. And it is not meant to take anything away from the extremely ingenious work that Mauro has done. It was out of inspiration of his work that I experimented with it. Try it you might even like it
Mauro, as a personal apology to you. I did not mean to offend you and if my actions did cause animosity, I humbly apologise
I will leave it at that.
As far as I my last statement goes. I am only confirming the sequence of inspiration. And it is not meant to take anything away from the extremely ingenious work that Mauro has done. It was out of inspiration of his work that I experimented with it. Try it you might even like it
Mauro, as a personal apology to you. I did not mean to offend you and if my actions did cause animosity, I humbly apologise
I will leave it at that.
Russ White said:Hi all,
I am sorry I reacted so strongly to Rudi. I realize he was trying to make peace. I do not agree with some things in his post, but I agree with the sentiment. Peace Rudi, lets go have a beer.
Cheers!
Russ
cheers RussBest regards
Rudi
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
We want Mauro!
Is there a "mission statement" for the diyaudio forums? I am sure that it would contain the following statement:
"To facilitate the sharing/debating of ideas, tweaks, mods and/or practical guidelines for the design/manufacture of audio equipment".
It is probably fair to assume that the participants on the forum are fully aware that they can go spend cash at audio retailers and purchase the sound/experience they are looking for.
But they choose to come to DIYAUDIO, presumably because the economics of audio DIY are more attractive than buying a pre-fabricated device via standard retail outlets and/or the secondhand market.
A case in point is the AD815 pre that CFM suggested. I could have bought a Classe pre (using OPA2604 opamps!) for say US$1000 and then spent the next few years running on the upgrade treadmill, financing my dealers new car/house/boat etc.
But I spent a few bucks and built the AD815 which has delivered the audio goodies and bliss in spades, at a fraction of the retail price.
And that is the point-We are all looking to MAXIMISE the return on the cash spent and are willing to invest the time and effort to realise the maximum return.
Rudi's efforts and commentary should be seen in that light. I know him personally and at no stage in the development of the X-amp was there any negative intent toward any of the users of this forum. That has never been the point and would've been a waste of time/energy.
Instead, if anything, it is his excitement and enthusiasm at the amplifier's ability to be improved via fairly well known mods/tweaks that underscores his various comments. "Maximising the performance with the smallest possible outlay".
And perhaps as importantly in the context of diyaudio.com, being willing to share those mods/tweaks/boards with all and sundry. And, since actions speak louder than words, that more than anything should provide a clear comment on his character.
Finally, we are all audio reviewers at the end of the day. And if something sounds better, then by jove, we will prefer it vs the older incarnations. Nothing the matter in that, the old principal of freedom of choice.
The call on what you prefer fortunately remains entirely in your hands. Build it and see for yourself.
And lets get on with diy!
"To facilitate the sharing/debating of ideas, tweaks, mods and/or practical guidelines for the design/manufacture of audio equipment".
It is probably fair to assume that the participants on the forum are fully aware that they can go spend cash at audio retailers and purchase the sound/experience they are looking for.
But they choose to come to DIYAUDIO, presumably because the economics of audio DIY are more attractive than buying a pre-fabricated device via standard retail outlets and/or the secondhand market.
A case in point is the AD815 pre that CFM suggested. I could have bought a Classe pre (using OPA2604 opamps!) for say US$1000 and then spent the next few years running on the upgrade treadmill, financing my dealers new car/house/boat etc.
But I spent a few bucks and built the AD815 which has delivered the audio goodies and bliss in spades, at a fraction of the retail price.
And that is the point-We are all looking to MAXIMISE the return on the cash spent and are willing to invest the time and effort to realise the maximum return.
Rudi's efforts and commentary should be seen in that light. I know him personally and at no stage in the development of the X-amp was there any negative intent toward any of the users of this forum. That has never been the point and would've been a waste of time/energy.
Instead, if anything, it is his excitement and enthusiasm at the amplifier's ability to be improved via fairly well known mods/tweaks that underscores his various comments. "Maximising the performance with the smallest possible outlay".
And perhaps as importantly in the context of diyaudio.com, being willing to share those mods/tweaks/boards with all and sundry. And, since actions speak louder than words, that more than anything should provide a clear comment on his character.
Finally, we are all audio reviewers at the end of the day. And if something sounds better, then by jove, we will prefer it vs the older incarnations. Nothing the matter in that, the old principal of freedom of choice.
The call on what you prefer fortunately remains entirely in your hands. Build it and see for yourself.
And lets get on with diy!
d.i.y is to me almost an obsession. I may want to save money but in the end there is multiple amps speakers etc. Wait untill you have to move! I wonder if there is a 12 step program for this addiction?
Not only what we say is important but also that which is not said. Brian D. posted previous in this thread virtues to live by which I agree with.
Anyways, Ed, is that picture you? [ your avatar ], great expression! what exactly is Mongo?
Cheers
doggy
Not only what we say is important but also that which is not said. Brian D. posted previous in this thread virtues to live by which I agree with.
Anyways, Ed, is that picture you? [ your avatar ], great expression! what exactly is Mongo?
Cheers
doggy
Good post Dr.H
We all appreciate Mauro sharing his work but this is a diyaudio forum, I cannot remember seeing any amp that has been built exactly to the designers spec and left alone.
If we try a mod on an amp etc and we like it, its only fair to post it sounded better to your ears and in your system.
It makes sense to build something as whats recommended first but surely there is no harm in wanting to experiment if you feel the need, if your perfectly happy with it then leave it as it is
We all appreciate Mauro sharing his work but this is a diyaudio forum, I cannot remember seeing any amp that has been built exactly to the designers spec and left alone.
If we try a mod on an amp etc and we like it, its only fair to post it sounded better to your ears and in your system.
It makes sense to build something as whats recommended first but surely there is no harm in wanting to experiment if you feel the need, if your perfectly happy with it then leave it as it is
Mongo is my alter ego
Mongo is a character from "Blazing Saddles" produced by Mel Brooks, circa 1974.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071230/
If I looked like that...my dog would leave me?
Mongo lives simply, on a hunter/gatherer level...kinda where I exist in electronics...trying everyday to reach higher on the tree.
Mongo is a character from "Blazing Saddles" produced by Mel Brooks, circa 1974.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071230/
If I looked like that...my dog would leave me?
Mongo lives simply, on a hunter/gatherer level...kinda where I exist in electronics...trying everyday to reach higher on the tree.
Dr. H,
You have been a contributing member of the DIYAudio forums for far longer than me; so it makes me feel more ignorant than insightful when I am uncomfortable with part of to your characterization of the DIY mission.
I know little about electronic theory but did a lot of debating in my college days and I remember that winning the debate was the central goal, not advancing the science. This difference I think is the core of the frustration for those truly innovative souls who design, tweak, measure, listen and objectively test using before they proclaim advances over alternate designs.
Mauro Penasa is by no means the first of these almost irreplaceable contributors to leave. I hope he comes back, but whether he does or not we can learn from the experience only if we take a step back and analyze their reasons.
The frustration has nothing to do with ego or the ablility to accept criticism. Scientific method requires and even welcomes well founded innovation. It has to do with the disservice that occurs when posters shoot first and test later (or never).
For someone like myself who lacks the electronics background to compare the theoretical advantages of competing designs the posts of these debaters really confuse things. For those who know more I imagine they are a source of frustration, as they prevent us from moving forward.
I chose the MyRev as my first DIY project not because I understood the techology behind it but because I thought I understood some of the people behind it. Mauro's title for this thread was made I think only partially in jest. In the first 20 pages he is constantly challenged by those trying to understand the design and responds with patience and an open mind.
Russ and Brian's posts show similar motivation. If they did not understand something they were not afraid to ask and the PCB design was posted in all its iterations for the forum to criticise and improve upon again and again.
I do not see any solution to this dilemma. This is an open forum and I am happy that it is. I just hope that going forward those who provide true innovations here and who are respectful in their claims understand that their work is appreciated and that even the less technical of us can with some effort separate the wheat from the chaff.
You have been a contributing member of the DIYAudio forums for far longer than me; so it makes me feel more ignorant than insightful when I am uncomfortable with part of to your characterization of the DIY mission.
I know little about electronic theory but did a lot of debating in my college days and I remember that winning the debate was the central goal, not advancing the science. This difference I think is the core of the frustration for those truly innovative souls who design, tweak, measure, listen and objectively test using before they proclaim advances over alternate designs.
Mauro Penasa is by no means the first of these almost irreplaceable contributors to leave. I hope he comes back, but whether he does or not we can learn from the experience only if we take a step back and analyze their reasons.
The frustration has nothing to do with ego or the ablility to accept criticism. Scientific method requires and even welcomes well founded innovation. It has to do with the disservice that occurs when posters shoot first and test later (or never).
For someone like myself who lacks the electronics background to compare the theoretical advantages of competing designs the posts of these debaters really confuse things. For those who know more I imagine they are a source of frustration, as they prevent us from moving forward.
I chose the MyRev as my first DIY project not because I understood the techology behind it but because I thought I understood some of the people behind it. Mauro's title for this thread was made I think only partially in jest. In the first 20 pages he is constantly challenged by those trying to understand the design and responds with patience and an open mind.
Russ and Brian's posts show similar motivation. If they did not understand something they were not afraid to ask and the PCB design was posted in all its iterations for the forum to criticise and improve upon again and again.
I do not see any solution to this dilemma. This is an open forum and I am happy that it is. I just hope that going forward those who provide true innovations here and who are respectful in their claims understand that their work is appreciated and that even the less technical of us can with some effort separate the wheat from the chaff.
Ed's avatar
cool!
"I don't deserve to be so happy"-scrooge-a christmas carol-Allister Sim
cheers
doggy
🙂 🙂 🙂
cool!
"I don't deserve to be so happy"-scrooge-a christmas carol-Allister Sim
cheers
doggy
🙂 🙂 🙂
I am saddened that mauro has decided to leave the Forum that he started, with his gift to the diy community of his My Reference amp.
Iwould hope that he reconsiders his decision.
I chanced upon the Forum, and was inspired to build the Twisted Pear Rev.C. The reason for this was because of the meticulous way Mauro designed it over a long period of time, so that the amp was a fully tested design when presented.
There were also some favourable reports from some Rev C builders with high end Hi Fi gear to reference the performance to, that I reacted to.
Russ and Brian's great Kit made the decision easier.
Thank you Mauro for sharing your Amp, and Russ and Brian for the kit to make it happen.
Have an enjoyable Christmas everyone!
Audie.
Iwould hope that he reconsiders his decision.
I chanced upon the Forum, and was inspired to build the Twisted Pear Rev.C. The reason for this was because of the meticulous way Mauro designed it over a long period of time, so that the amp was a fully tested design when presented.
There were also some favourable reports from some Rev C builders with high end Hi Fi gear to reference the performance to, that I reacted to.
Russ and Brian's great Kit made the decision easier.
Thank you Mauro for sharing your Amp, and Russ and Brian for the kit to make it happen.
Have an enjoyable Christmas everyone!
Audie.
steve-
Don't fret. I've been so busy with kits and such that I haven;t been able to get any cases made myself. I used to have mine mounted on a piece of aluminum, but gave that away to my brother with his Christmas present 😉. Here's a pic of mine now (still sounds great, btw)...
Yes, it is time to clean the workbench...
Attachments
Hey Brian,
Nice workbench. It looks like you stold my soldering iron. 😀 Mine was bought as a "stained glass" iron with a good sized tip.
While you have all the wires all over the place, have you tried running the wires in all the wrong places, like putting input and out close together or over the transformers, or next to the power wire. Try running the speaker wires with the power cable. I tried this a few weeks ago and was surprised at the results, at least on my test system. It may be different in a proper listening environment.
regards
Nice workbench. It looks like you stold my soldering iron. 😀 Mine was bought as a "stained glass" iron with a good sized tip.
While you have all the wires all over the place, have you tried running the wires in all the wrong places, like putting input and out close together or over the transformers, or next to the power wire. Try running the speaker wires with the power cable. I tried this a few weeks ago and was surprised at the results, at least on my test system. It may be different in a proper listening environment.
regards
lazyfly said:
Lazyfly, sometimes I feel just like that, thank you.
I would not like to post anything at this point, but I think I should clarify some things:
1. I have absolutely no relation with Rudi, if someone may be thinking about that. He made his tests on his own and reported what he did based on his will to improve this amp.
2. I think Rudi is a good guy, really. He had no bad intentions, and perhaps he didn't think about one 'little' detail that Mauro pointed out and that I deeply respect: this is Mauro's design and posting a different layout of his amp or making a 'group buy' with it should always have his previous permission. I think Rudi didn't even think about this, he had no bad intentions, but lets be fair, this should always be done.
3. There are several points where Rudi is very right, this is a 'closed' design, the designer and those who commercialize his amp are not willing to discuss improvements at all. So, accept the amp as it is, and that's it.
4. I think that what Rudi reported as audible improvements with the changes he made to this design are honest, they are not exagerated, they are mostly right. But Rudi, keep that for yourself, unless you have permission from Mauro. Otherwise, make your own amp with your own PCB and that's it.
Brian and Russ, I see those beautiful looking trans that you have in the pics that you have posted. The ones with the copper shielding. Did the copper come together as an integral part of the trans or they can be bought separately? If yes, are they easily available?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
carlosfm said:
Good morning Carlos,
I find this point the most interesting. Whenever a design is "closed", problems are going to occur with technical talk and discussions on an open forum. Once it becomes "commercialised" (non-profit or should that be non-loss) the issue becomes an even greater problem. Say someone has just made 200 pcbs and Joe Blow says he has proven that by changing it greatly improves the amp. What's going to happen with the 200 "obsolete" pcbs.
I believe all the players have been open, honest and very generous with their time and efforts, but they are on conflicting paths, that's all.
Professionals, like Mauro, will always have difficulties on public forums. These chaps have spent many years earning respect in their fields or at their least workplace, come here and are questioned about every design decision. These people have to re-establish their reputation from scratch amongst many who are not even their peers, (i.e. me)
Everyone, keep up the good work, we'll get through these issues.
regards
Greg Erskine said:
I think you got the point. Mauro has made a great job sharing such a amp, and he made it providing almost all the technical motivations for his choices (e.g. the ones for the use of 12V zeners).
This is almost unique around here.
He also questioned himself and, after studying Graham Maynard's articles developed the Rev_C.
Nonetheless there have been a number of proposed "betterings" from the beginning, that irritated him almost as P.A.'s snubber "improvements" irritated Carlos....
Said that, anyone is free to make the changes he likes, but you should be (have been
) careful when claiming such great improvements.... I never came across a thread boasting a great improvement over a Pass amp, probably also thanks to the great respect towards Nelson.
Mauro isn't a piece of Hifi history as Nelson but he also deserves respect, since sometimes words can be like stones.
Cheers
Andrea
Safetyman,
I believe those transformers are the Parts Express $7.00 buyouts which, unfortunately, appear to be sold out. I think they are only copper colored. I have two but wish I bought a few more now.
For what it's worth, I have a RevA (currently tacked down to plywood) that sounds very very good with my speakers -- http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker12.html -- 27tdfc tweeter substituted for the 27tffc. It plays as loud as I care to listen without any sign of clipping or distortion. I can only compare it to a 100watt Yamaha surround receiver and the SI class T...not really worth comparing to the Yamaha but I can say it does have a much more musical sound, details are brought out, and the bass is definitely more controlled and substantial. And it actually seems to play louder with less strain that the Yamaha which supposedly has twice the power. The un-modified SI , which sounds more musical than the Yamaha, has a pleasing shimmer in the higher frequencies but I think this may be some kind of amp-added characteristic not originally present in the recorded signal. The SI sounds very pleasant and images very well but 5 watts doesn't really power my 85db speakers to adequate levels. The lack of low end and low end control is hard to overlook but can be improved upon somewhat with modification.
Thanks Mauro for making such a great amp design available and thanks Russ and Brian for the boards, kits, and enthusiasm all of which made it possible for my electronically illiterate self to build a
world class amp.
Greg
PS: This ain't no Rolls Royce, it's gotta be some kind of fine Italian luxury car.... a Lamborghini or Ferrari or something similar.
I believe those transformers are the Parts Express $7.00 buyouts which, unfortunately, appear to be sold out. I think they are only copper colored. I have two but wish I bought a few more now.
For what it's worth, I have a RevA (currently tacked down to plywood) that sounds very very good with my speakers -- http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker12.html -- 27tdfc tweeter substituted for the 27tffc. It plays as loud as I care to listen without any sign of clipping or distortion. I can only compare it to a 100watt Yamaha surround receiver and the SI class T...not really worth comparing to the Yamaha but I can say it does have a much more musical sound, details are brought out, and the bass is definitely more controlled and substantial. And it actually seems to play louder with less strain that the Yamaha which supposedly has twice the power. The un-modified SI , which sounds more musical than the Yamaha, has a pleasing shimmer in the higher frequencies but I think this may be some kind of amp-added characteristic not originally present in the recorded signal. The SI sounds very pleasant and images very well but 5 watts doesn't really power my 85db speakers to adequate levels. The lack of low end and low end control is hard to overlook but can be improved upon somewhat with modification.
Thanks Mauro for making such a great amp design available and thanks Russ and Brian for the boards, kits, and enthusiasm all of which made it possible for my electronically illiterate self to build a
world class amp.
Greg
PS: This ain't no Rolls Royce, it's gotta be some kind of fine Italian luxury car.... a Lamborghini or Ferrari or something similar.
continued report of added caps
I want to make a correction; the added caps are 5900uf not 6800uf. In total that makes 20,000 + 2x1000 elna+5900=27,900uf/side.After a short while of trying different bypass caps; these sangamo .0047uf was the winner.
These 5900uf STM's are from the 70's but they work real well. Some older stuff is still good, and evan may have been made better. I have an upright freezer with the round corners and the big metal handle name: "magic pantry-blue ribbon super market"-it was made in 1959, i've owned it for15 years and it still runs great[touch wood].
I just want to pass along my evaluation of this added cap value. To me; this amp has more transient power with these caps. It makes me think that maybe just better caps like the siemens sikoral or perhaps sprague could be better?
I confess also to have felt some goosebumps and enjoyment; but will it satisfy?
cheers
doggy
I want to make a correction; the added caps are 5900uf not 6800uf. In total that makes 20,000 + 2x1000 elna+5900=27,900uf/side.After a short while of trying different bypass caps; these sangamo .0047uf was the winner.
These 5900uf STM's are from the 70's but they work real well. Some older stuff is still good, and evan may have been made better. I have an upright freezer with the round corners and the big metal handle name: "magic pantry-blue ribbon super market"-it was made in 1959, i've owned it for15 years and it still runs great[touch wood].
I just want to pass along my evaluation of this added cap value. To me; this amp has more transient power with these caps. It makes me think that maybe just better caps like the siemens sikoral or perhaps sprague could be better?
I confess also to have felt some goosebumps and enjoyment; but will it satisfy?
cheers
doggy
