Good grief! How close are you sitting? I never heard that.
The best wooden horns I've ever heard where Iwata crossed circa 800Hz. Sand filled wood horns. Not a building project I'd like to undertake. Some folks love circular horns, others are partial to sectoral horns. Hard to make a choice, for sure if you haven't heard a particular version you really liked.
Thanks for the input guys, sounds like I'm giving the 805's a second chance at 1-4khz
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Good grief! How close are you sitting? I never heard that.
The best wooden horns I've ever heard where Iwata crossed circa 800Hz. Sand filled wood horns. Not a building project I'd like to undertake. Some folks love circular horns, others are partial to sectoral horns. Hard to make a choice, for sure if you haven't heard a particular version you really liked.
Mostly around 14 feet away. I prefer radials like JBL 2350 over the multicells everytime - never had the iwata but that curve interests me. The tractrix (round or otherwise) is even better than radial if crossed over higher. Since going to front loaded dual concentric I have lost the desire to integrate large multi way horns in my room. If I could listen at 20-30 feet maybe I would be staying there.
To OP I would only recommend using the Multicell up to around 1200 cycles based on the size room you have. That would make them a NO for me because there are better solutions from 1200 down to the low mid (250 hz)
I agree. I'm begining to question the use of a CD for anything low. I've been listening to some 6" vintage Philips fullranges xover at 3khz, and I think they would be better than trying to make a 288/805b work. A cone wideband fits perfectly from 200-400hz where the 515 starts to beam all the way up to 3-4khz. If I was listening 20' away, then ya, a horn makes sense. Was also thinking a fostex fe108ez mounted just above the 515 onken would blend the horn on top seamlessly too. Seen others do similar:
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Our hearing is obviously different, and that fascinates me.
Although I think a big room is good for multicells horns, I never heard the problems described here when sitting about 15 feet away. In fact I could walk right up almost touching the horns and never hear them, the sound always seemed to come from just behind them. I was very fond of demonstrating that effect to the amazement of my visitors.
I simply could not live with the little driver on the Onken as shown in those 2 photos. BT-DT, did not like it. Not bad, but just not "right" to me. A nice 400Hz tractrix or Iwata, yes.
But you have to find what works for you. I found what works for me, so that's what I use. The cone midrange may be just your cup of tea. You gotta hear it and judge for yourself, that's the fascinating thing about audio. There is no One Size Fits All. Despite what some experts here will tell you.
Although I think a big room is good for multicells horns, I never heard the problems described here when sitting about 15 feet away. In fact I could walk right up almost touching the horns and never hear them, the sound always seemed to come from just behind them. I was very fond of demonstrating that effect to the amazement of my visitors.
I simply could not live with the little driver on the Onken as shown in those 2 photos. BT-DT, did not like it. Not bad, but just not "right" to me. A nice 400Hz tractrix or Iwata, yes.
But you have to find what works for you. I found what works for me, so that's what I use. The cone midrange may be just your cup of tea. You gotta hear it and judge for yourself, that's the fascinating thing about audio. There is no One Size Fits All. Despite what some experts here will tell you.
Multicell is mostly for bigger room and larger coverage. But Tractrix will more musical. Multicell in smaller rooms will be harder to get it right and you will not get a sound to be happy enough to live with after all the hardwork.
Sigh... That's your story. Your experience. Not a fact. Yes, it's easier for many speakers to sound good in a big room with good acoustics. This isn't restricted to any particular subset of speakers.
In my medium sized room I was very happy with the sound of the multi-cells. Very. Everyone who came to listen was very happy with the sound. To say it can't be done is simply false.
Was the sound of multicell horn better than say a Tactrix and is your opinion based on people who have both multicell and Tactrix horn?
I do not deny the fact multicell horn won't sound good. It is about multicell horn sounds better than Tactrix horn. Multicell horn sounding good is a seperate factor and Multicell horn sounding better than Tactrix horn is different.
From my listening experience, my general horn preference would be constant directivity (without using a pinched diffraction slot), second a distributed source (multiple cells) and in third place, horn contours such as the Tractrix that result in a single narrowing dispersion HF that varies with frequency.
A Tractrix horn has (for the most part) a single high frequency "beam" or "finger". A multicell will exhibit multiple fingering dependent on cell count.
Which is more offensive to you, a hand, or a single middle finger 😀?
Art
Thanks art. I've tried the 805b multicell in my larger room/garage, and limited the extension to around 5k. From 500-5k is sounds very good. Defraction horn has the benefit if being easier to build as well. Whats your preference, cone or compression driver? (500-5k)
I like the idea of using a small cone driver like a Fostex Fe108 sigma. I think it could sound better down low than the 288-8g which sounds kinda lean.
I like the idea of using a small cone driver like a Fostex Fe108 sigma. I think it could sound better down low than the 288-8g which sounds kinda lean.
I've heard a Lowther cone in a large midrange horn and thought it was wonderful. Didn't have any of the Lowther nasties. Quite surprising! Why not a Fostex?
I think that effect is greatly diminished when using these horns at their intended volume and distance. I've not used mine up close so I don't know about nearfield.
Well, seeing that I'm over 50, I prefer the middle finger. I can't imagine the Dr. using his whole hand.
Wait, what?
Never mind.
A good horn or a midrange cone can both easily cover a decade, so in the 500 to 5 kHz range my preference on cone or compression driver would depend on the application.
For a three way system where extended frequency response, efficiency and tight pattern control are desired, my preference would be something like this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ual-single-point-source-horn.html#post4114406
which crosses in the 80-100 Hz and 800-1000 Hz range.
Crossing in the 80 to 100 Hz range to the woofer relaxes the position requirement for the woofers considerably, as they no longer need to be co-located with the midrange as a 500 Hz crossover requires for decent imaging. When position is no longer a concern, the woofers can be built in to places that don't use up a lot of floor space.
Raising the mid crossover from 500 to 1000 reduces excursion to the point where a decent 3" diaphragm driver on the right horn can sound clean higher than I can hear (16 kHz).
Nice looking shop you have!
Art
It's all about the crossover
My experience with the 288/805 combo is in complete agreement with Pano. They sounded horrid with Altec crossovers, and several other solutions I tried at first.
Then I discovered the Hiraga A5 crossover as published in the article "La Voice of the Theatre Chez Nous", by John Stronczer, in Sound Practices #11.
With the Hiraga crossover, all traces of "stadium horn" sound vanished, in fact the horns vanished into an expansive 3D soundstage.
The effect Pano describes-- as you walk up to the horns, the sound recedes to a point behind them-- was almost eerie. They sounded louder from 15' away than they did with your face almost touching them. This was in a 16'x25'x9' room.
My experience with the 288/805 combo is in complete agreement with Pano. They sounded horrid with Altec crossovers, and several other solutions I tried at first.
Then I discovered the Hiraga A5 crossover as published in the article "La Voice of the Theatre Chez Nous", by John Stronczer, in Sound Practices #11.
With the Hiraga crossover, all traces of "stadium horn" sound vanished, in fact the horns vanished into an expansive 3D soundstage.
The effect Pano describes-- as you walk up to the horns, the sound recedes to a point behind them-- was almost eerie. They sounded louder from 15' away than they did with your face almost touching them. This was in a 16'x25'x9' room.
I should add, they were part of a 4-way system: 288B/805 horns, 515 in 825 theatre cabs with the Hiraga crossover. 2x EVM15 as subs below 70Hz, with Linkwitz biquad eq to 20Hz.
A pair of JBL 2404 tweeters crossed in at about 8kHz 2nd order, no LP rolloff on the 288s.
Both main speakers driven by a pair of IPC/Simplex AM1027 6L6 Tube amps (tweaked). Subs driven by a home-brew ETI 470 transistor amp. LOUD was hitting peak powers of 4w/ch on the mains.
fwiw
A pair of JBL 2404 tweeters crossed in at about 8kHz 2nd order, no LP rolloff on the 288s.
Both main speakers driven by a pair of IPC/Simplex AM1027 6L6 Tube amps (tweaked). Subs driven by a home-brew ETI 470 transistor amp. LOUD was hitting peak powers of 4w/ch on the mains.
fwiw
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Crossovers do make a major difference. Oddly, I could not get the published Hiraga crossover to work well with my rig. It was "OK" but not great. Certainly it did not sound or measure anything like the crossover that Mr. Hiraga and I used on his rig back in the 80s.
Different drivers, somewhat different horns, I suppose. Good to hear that it worked well for you.
Different drivers, somewhat different horns, I suppose. Good to hear that it worked well for you.
It is not a horn, it is a crossover topology. "Jet" starting at the crossing Fo in lower region.
So linearize the impedance around Fs with simple RLC serial notch, and made additional inverse "baffle step" with CR-R network. For optionl attenuation use bridged T network (not L-pad please...) 🙂 cheers
So linearize the impedance around Fs with simple RLC serial notch, and made additional inverse "baffle step" with CR-R network. For optionl attenuation use bridged T network (not L-pad please...) 🙂 cheers
This is where I'm leaning, but it's a work in progress. Just received the UMIK-1 cal mic and I'm learning REW. The first step is to learn the behavior of each driver and enclosure.
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FWIW, back when Altec could afford to be serious about cinema sound, their XOs had impedance compensation with intrinsically damped tapped auto-formers that combined with VC physical alignment made complex XOs unnecessary even with very low output impedance PP amps and any fine tuning was done with boost/treble controls in the input signal path where it belonged rather than in the output power lines.
When it comes to high resolution systems such as with prosound components where 'cheap' just means signal, sound degradation, why folks continue to 'chase their tails' with complex XOs, high $$ caps when cheap motor run PIO or similar suffices without the need for damping resistors, etc., is beyond me; or even passive XOs for that matter now that accurate, high SQ digital measurement, etc., systems don't cost multiple months of one's salary like it did during my speaker building time.
GM
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