Size doesn't matter...What's the best horn to use, and the best xover freq on the top and bottom?
I'm looking for the full vocal range, and smooth tone. Not looking to push the driver, but keep it in its optimal range, before breakup or beaming.
288-8g specifically.
Lows: 515-8G
Highs: ribbon horn, 105db, flexible from 2k on up.
Started drawing up Yuischi 290 bi radial.
Have Altec 805b multicell. They don't soundstage, and sound metallic.
Considering constant directivity wood horn?
Have a wood round 300hz tractrix half built. Just a bunch of cut out rings, but missing a lathe to finish.
Anyone compared?
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I'm looking for the full vocal range, and smooth tone. Not looking to push the driver, but keep it in its optimal range, before breakup or beaming.
288-8g specifically.
Lows: 515-8G
Highs: ribbon horn, 105db, flexible from 2k on up.
Started drawing up Yuischi 290 bi radial.
Have Altec 805b multicell. They don't soundstage, and sound metallic.
Considering constant directivity wood horn?
Have a wood round 300hz tractrix half built. Just a bunch of cut out rings, but missing a lathe to finish.
Anyone compared?
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What? I have not used the 805, but have used the 803, 1005 and 1505. All had great soundstage and image, none sounded metallic. What's going on there? Crossover problems?
They sounded great when I first got them, compared to my old 511b horns, but have since got wooden 800hz biradials for my 802 drivers. In contrast to those, yes, they sound like an old PA speaker. I've tried a number of crossover including the Altec n1285, eminence 500 Hz crossover, with a 2k notch curcuit to flatten. Irregardless, the coloring is there. Also, my room is only 20 x 20'. But I have plans in the winter to build a 30 x 30' above our garage.
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Finish the tractrix they are much much better sounding
than multicells. The multicell may be better in the 1k under due to the size other wise you can sell the 805's for an absurd price and be happy. I think a lot of people like the multicell for it's appearance and nostalgia thinking they will get hifi but not even close.
than multicells. The multicell may be better in the 1k under due to the size other wise you can sell the 805's for an absurd price and be happy. I think a lot of people like the multicell for it's appearance and nostalgia thinking they will get hifi but not even close.
Of course I don't completely disagree.
You have to get the crossover right, no matter what. Whenever I've used Altec crossovers on Altec drivers, I was sorely disappointed.
- A good Tractrix can sound very nice.
- A good Iwata or JMLC can also sound superb.
- If you want something that sounds like a "Hi-Fi speaker", multicell is not for you
- If you want something that sounds real, like real music and musicians, the multicell is hard to beat.
You have to get the crossover right, no matter what. Whenever I've used Altec crossovers on Altec drivers, I was sorely disappointed.
Do you have a picture of your tractrix?
Regarding the crossovers, they are not the problem. It's easy to say "oh it's just the crossover" but the horns charactistics are the same whether its the minidsp, custom passive or the Altec. The Altec is selectable between 500/800/1200hz, with mid attenuation control if you've ever used that particular late model.
To me, the material greatly effects the coloring. Plastic sounds like plastic, wood sounds like wood, metal sounds like metal. Also I have found that a broader dispersion horn without beaming creates a wall of sound, with great staging. With the exception of the large multicells in my smallish room. I'm sure they sound great in a large room.
#1. Are there better more modern designs like constant directivity horns that are better than a biradial?
#2. I've read that a true tractrix reduces horn coloration, is this true of only round tratrix?
#3. Which one would you build?
Regarding the crossovers, they are not the problem. It's easy to say "oh it's just the crossover" but the horns charactistics are the same whether its the minidsp, custom passive or the Altec. The Altec is selectable between 500/800/1200hz, with mid attenuation control if you've ever used that particular late model.
To me, the material greatly effects the coloring. Plastic sounds like plastic, wood sounds like wood, metal sounds like metal. Also I have found that a broader dispersion horn without beaming creates a wall of sound, with great staging. With the exception of the large multicells in my smallish room. I'm sure they sound great in a large room.
#1. Are there better more modern designs like constant directivity horns that are better than a biradial?
#2. I've read that a true tractrix reduces horn coloration, is this true of only round tratrix?
#3. Which one would you build?
It's easy to say, because it's true 90% of time. I'd still put money on the crossovers because they are usually done wrong, no matter the topology. I say that because I've spent a LOT of time with multi-cells. And all I've ever seen or heard are coated with either Aquaplas or tar and don't have a metallic ring. Maybe yours are not?
Anyhow, if you don't like them, you should dump them, no question. There are other very good horns types that can make you happy. I just don't like to see blanket statements that I know (from long experience) not to be true. That's unfair to the technology and unfair to those who might want to use it.
Anyhow, if you don't like them, you should dump them, no question. There are other very good horns types that can make you happy. I just don't like to see blanket statements that I know (from long experience) not to be true. That's unfair to the technology and unfair to those who might want to use it.
The big metal horns are not hard to damp but they will always have that big stadium sound. I don't notice the 'metal' sound so much outdoors so I haven't bothered to do my big ones. The smaller cast horns really benefit from damping the 'lips' though, it's almost mandatory unless you actually like 'cow bells'.
Mine are coated. They are much better than the 511b I have, but still sound like a horn. I'm talking about no horn sound at all, and all that's left is sweet tone, huge dynamics, and amazing clarity. Can it be achieved? And with what type of horn? I've gotten very close with my wooden arteluthe bi-radials, but they only go down to 800hz at most. Do i just make the same, just bigger (a290), or is there something better? I'm sold on wood
So which one?
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So which one?
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Broadly speaking, I'm with Pano here. My OS waveguides can be intimately balanced, and will image up the wazoo.. but without crossover support it just isn't there.
Maybe it's a matter of semantics. To me, a crossover is not the choice of a cut-off frequency. It is a system. Lets say EQ is a part, all frequencies are involved, as are all directions and integration with the other drivers.
Maybe it's a matter of semantics. To me, a crossover is not the choice of a cut-off frequency. It is a system. Lets say EQ is a part, all frequencies are involved, as are all directions and integration with the other drivers.
Yes indeed, EQ should be part of the crossover. Even if it's very simple.
Cal, AFAIK, all the multi-cells were coated, yes.
If you don't like the sound of the multi-cells, no need to keep them. There are some great wooden horns out there that sound very sweet indeed. They may be easier to use than bigger horns. But I have had amazingly good results with with multi-cell horns over the years. No horn sound at all, just music. And that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of many listeners, which makes me confident that it can be done.
Does anyone remember Richard Hammond's tour in a formula one car?
Cal, AFAIK, all the multi-cells were coated, yes.
If you don't like the sound of the multi-cells, no need to keep them. There are some great wooden horns out there that sound very sweet indeed. They may be easier to use than bigger horns. But I have had amazingly good results with with multi-cell horns over the years. No horn sound at all, just music. And that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of many listeners, which makes me confident that it can be done.
Does anyone remember Richard Hammond's tour in a formula one car?
I think so. To expand on my last post, a horn with which I think this is true might descend to being worse than a dome tweeter in almost all respects with the wrong crossover. Most crossover work I see doesn't take in to account the power response of the unit, including the combined power response at the actual crossover frequency.
At the lower frequencies things can be a little less demanding, sound wise. Driver loading can be a little more important. LeCleach, tractrix and hypex are more common choices.
In my opinion you'll gain from watching what others use. It looks simple, how hard can it be to compare straight or curved walls? But the interactions do get tricky. Conicals/waveguides show less benefits/more troubles in practice at lower frequencies. Curved horns can be good up high but some of their benefits can be lost at these frequencies and changing directivity might be seen as less beneficial in some respects.
No, but Tom Danley once offered a home made recording of a bike, starting then riding up and down the street. Even my daughter, who knows my system walked outside to see who it was.
The 300 tractrix will give you pure tone and sweet sound. In your small room combined with the altec it will be hard to find better sound. You should crossover between 600-1200 Hz and probably can add a tweeter around 4-5K. I have 805, 1005 and 203 altec cellular horns and in a small room they do not sound like "music" they sound like multicell horns listened to too close - above around 1/2k you get a sensation of the sound coming from multiple sources along with honk and mangled sound. The tractrix does not do this at all.
Thank you for the input guys. I agree the 805b's paired with the 288-8g's in my 30x30 garage, literally sound real life(especially on well recorded 60's music, for some reason, like Etta James). Pooh (I feel wierd typing your name BTW), regarding xover points, 805b seem to have no problem at 500hz, but are you suggesting to run them higher to reduce horn coloring?
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