I have the same horn Volti 260 and the same BMS driver. I used them on top of my klipschorn. I also heard TAD 4001 and Radian 850 with the same horn. I would say BMS 4592nd-mid sounds close to TAD 4001 but not as good. I actually preferred the Radian 850 to TAD 4001 and that is why I ended up with it, price was not the issue here (though its great to pay much less for a better result in my application). If you haven't tried these drivers, it may be beneficial to do so.
TAD 2001 however was marginally better than Radian 475be, but I went ahead with the radian 475be as I preffered to have same brands working together.
@AE: If your Horn is big enough, you can cross the Radian at 100Hz.
The 600Hz is indicating how low the Radian can keep its Rated Max Power (e.g. 100 Watts).
The Horn defines the usable lower crossover point in regards of sufficient, undistorted, controlled-dispersion output - for your personal loudness needs.
In most compression drivers the distance from diaphragm to phaseplug is the limiting factor for excursion, and as such influences recommended XO for max power.
In your case it will likely work with compromises at the group delay, rather than max loudness.
cheers
Josh
The 600Hz is indicating how low the Radian can keep its Rated Max Power (e.g. 100 Watts).
The Horn defines the usable lower crossover point in regards of sufficient, undistorted, controlled-dispersion output - for your personal loudness needs.
In most compression drivers the distance from diaphragm to phaseplug is the limiting factor for excursion, and as such influences recommended XO for max power.
In your case it will likely work with compromises at the group delay, rather than max loudness.
cheers
Josh
I'd recommend something to keep DSP noise down, have enough gain latitude, and also have low-enough distortion in the analog sections. I use a Xilica XP series DSP crossover and recommend it highly. But I've been told that the miniDSP 2x4 HD has enough gain and low-enough distortion and noise. Note that I haven't tried it myself, and that's important to note for a high sensitivity system like you've got. miniDSP crossovers have a reputation for having these sort of issues before the 2x4 HD arrived on the scene.
I wouldn't worry about the woofer-K-402 time delay as much due to the inherent time delay of passive crossovers, and the fact that your woofer will physically lead your K-402/Radian 950PB by ~1.2ms. If you cross over at 400 Hz, you will have at least 90 degrees of phase lag on the low frequency channel (i.e., 90 degrees for every order of the crossover filters used). That's 0.625ms of lag is using first order, and about 1.2ms is using second order. If you use second order filters, that should put you into the "within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequency" regime, so you'll effectively be time aligned with the woofer. You can probably adjust your relative position of the K-402 on top of the woofer/bass bin to take out the slack. The vertical separation issue will still be with you, but I believe it is more than tolerable.
This is the problem in my estimation. There's really no good place to put a tweeter/horn, and anywhere you do, you need at least 17 inches (~43 cm) of set back just to time align physically with your Radian driver/K-402 acoustic center at the crossover frequency.
Then you will need to add more setback distance to align due to the crossover filter delay at your crossover frequency (about 0.041ms per order of the filter @6000 crossover frequency). You'll have to align within a 0.57 inches (1.43 cm) of perfect time alignment to stay within the 1/4 wavelength rule-of-thumb, and the alignment will now be sensitive to your listening position--standing or seated, etc. Now you've got to find a place to put a tweeter horn mouth and tweeter driver so that it isn't obscured by the K-402 horn profile. This is an issue that I wouldn't like to have to deal with. The vertical separation of several wavelengths at the crossover frequency is a problem you can't address, and it's a big one, in my experience. This will give you lobing in the vertical plane which will be very audible at 6 kHz--a frequency where I wouldn't like to have lobing issues.
This is why I recommended not using a separate tweeter and go with the Radian full-range (which has good polar coverage about 10 kHz in the K-402 horn--unlike other horn profiles), tuning your HF notch filters in your passive network (or supplying upstream EQ digitally) to compensate for the controlled directivity horn EQ effect on SPL/frequency. Klipsch is able to do that using their passive crossover network (the "-M" version of the KPT-942) to achieve flat response in monoamping. If they can do it for cinema, you can likely do it, too.
Chris
Last edited:
You made the test? You will be surprised!
I recommend. Before making all the effort for nothing.
Sure 8k is a pinch better.
Josh
No, I wouldn't. But thanks for the recommendation. The vertical separation also is a source of group delay wherever you put your microphone--inside or outside, in a chamber or in a real room.
I recommend you look more closely at the horns that you've been using for your "tests". (I.e, we just traded recommendations.) I recommend straight-sided exclusively, with tractrix mouth roll-outs.
Chris
I recommend you look more closely at the horns that you've been using for your "tests". (I.e, we just traded recommendations.) I recommend straight-sided exclusively, with tractrix mouth roll-outs.
Chris
Thanks but i have put it to the test already, thats what I'm trying to share - with all good intention.
A friend of mine found some explanations in old literature, we believe applies here:
In anchoic conditions a microphone captures the 6k and upwards lobing a lot, and it looks horrible.
However, in real world stereo environment it has no meaning. Combfilter from stereo (2 speaker interference), room-reverberance, head-circumference and pinna size related - wavelength is way too short. Especially that you only find a gulf in the response in one point of space. An inch further or 1ms later it may disappear already into many needles.
cheers
Josh
A friend of mine found some explanations in old literature, we believe applies here:
In anchoic conditions a microphone captures the 6k and upwards lobing a lot, and it looks horrible.
However, in real world stereo environment it has no meaning. Combfilter from stereo (2 speaker interference), room-reverberance, head-circumference and pinna size related - wavelength is way too short. Especially that you only find a gulf in the response in one point of space. An inch further or 1ms later it may disappear already into many needles.
cheers
Josh
Sorry, but your "good intention" isn't what I'd call it. I've seen that sort of thing elsewhere (on this forum). It's okay. I actually don't need another recommendation on that particular subject (i.e., your particular idea of "good intentions").
My recommendations and comments in this particular area (audibility of group delay and vertical driver/horn separation) are based on extended listening trials using K-402s and supporting measurements--in A-B fashion. I wouldn't have commented the way that I did if I thought it wasn't audible. It is. Try it. But first, I again recommend that you do something about the horns that you're using. I wouldn't use the ones that you've identified above that you said that you used to do these sort of tests.
Chris
My recommendations and comments in this particular area (audibility of group delay and vertical driver/horn separation) are based on extended listening trials using K-402s and supporting measurements--in A-B fashion. I wouldn't have commented the way that I did if I thought it wasn't audible. It is. Try it. But first, I again recommend that you do something about the horns that you're using. I wouldn't use the ones that you've identified above that you said that you used to do these sort of tests.
Chris
Last edited:
The difference would be audible @6K, but not as bad as how it looks on paper. Lower frequency, different story. As long as OP wants to do with passive crossovers, adding tweeter is not a bad idea (and possibly the best solution), while I really think he wants to solve woofer-mid crossover time alignment, but it is also just my opinion. 🙂
Chris
Sounds like a draw - 2 opposite experiences on the same thing.
I guess Andrew will have to make his own conclusions. As unfortunately internet communication often ends up in this "yes no yes no yes no " direction...
For your knowledge, above test was an industry standard tractrix
Jabo KH72
and the measures were made by a famous 30 year old publisher that uses highest end equipment and measuring cabines with all leading standards.
Very likely the whole editor crew of engineers made a mistake - but fortunately you are pointing it. Just as much as BMS made 2-inch throats wide-dispersion *** - by tricking the physics.... This thinking also recalls memories to me - so as your way of argumentation. Take it or leave it - we are done here.
Josh
*** speed of sound / 2 inch = 6880 cylces ...
Sounds like a draw - 2 opposite experiences on the same thing.
I guess Andrew will have to make his own conclusions. As unfortunately internet communication often ends up in this "yes no yes no yes no " direction...
For your knowledge, above test was an industry standard tractrix
Jabo KH72
and the measures were made by a famous 30 year old publisher that uses highest end equipment and measuring cabines with all leading standards.
Very likely the whole editor crew of engineers made a mistake - but fortunately you are pointing it. Just as much as BMS made 2-inch throats wide-dispersion *** - by tricking the physics.... This thinking also recalls memories to me - so as your way of argumentation. Take it or leave it - we are done here.
Josh
*** speed of sound / 2 inch = 6880 cylces ...
Last edited:
If all other things were equal, I'd agree on the 6K audibility thing. They're not, however. The K-402s make it a different ball game in my 11-year experience on that particular subject (trust me--or go listen to a pair instead). The controlled directivity all the way up and down--having acoustic treatments at the front of the room--unbalances that equation in favor of audibility of the phenomenon in my experience.
Plasnu, concerning your comment on woofer-midrange time alignment: if you read post #25, I think that you will see that using a second order set of crossover filters will achieve that alignment with minor positioning adjustments of the K-402 on top of the bass bins. I've done this perhaps for two dozen K-402-based installations using DSP delays and different orders and types of filters. I've found that getting the phase curve as flat as one can makes a huge difference in listenability.
To the OP: Your best friend is a measurement program and microphone to do that fine alignment and (hopefully) do EQ to overall flatten response.
YMMV.
Chris
Plasnu, concerning your comment on woofer-midrange time alignment: if you read post #25, I think that you will see that using a second order set of crossover filters will achieve that alignment with minor positioning adjustments of the K-402 on top of the bass bins. I've done this perhaps for two dozen K-402-based installations using DSP delays and different orders and types of filters. I've found that getting the phase curve as flat as one can makes a huge difference in listenability.
To the OP: Your best friend is a measurement program and microphone to do that fine alignment and (hopefully) do EQ to overall flatten response.
YMMV.
Chris
Chris, how do you mean this, which phase and how do you flatten it?
How would you describe the audible difference?
Cheers
Josh
Very interested here too. Never bothered too much with phase and only try to time align different drivers the best I could with DSP delays.
Would like to learn your technique if you could elaborate a way to achieve a better match if possible.
May I ask a basic question.. where do you get horns or clones of classics in the EU/UK?
A 2 way horn speaker is my grail! (Ive got some mainline floor standing klipsch now)
A 2 way horn speaker is my grail! (Ive got some mainline floor standing klipsch now)
A quick example using a Klipsch Jubilee (two-way with TAD TD-4002 driver) without the use of FIR filtering:
The use of lower order filters and adjusted HF delay was the difference in the blue and red trace phase curves. Group delay curves look similar.
The brown curve is that of a Danley SH-50 included for reference.
Chris
Attachments
I don't know how to get Klipsch K-402 and K-510 horns in the EU. Klipsch has apparently made it difficult to do so. If you buy a full 2-way Jubilee somewhere like the UK, it apparently gets a lot easier. That's about the extent of my knowledge on that subject.
Chris
Chris
How do I describe the audible difference? It's like night and day in terms of my willingness to sit through entire albums of music (all joking aside). But it is difficult to describe the precise difference in words. All I can say is that it sounded much more like the real thing on not only good recordings, but also recordings having recording issues, such as live albums, etc. I do wish that I could put it into words, but alas--it's one of those subtle qualities that is very difficult to quantify. The system just "comes together".
Note that I also flattened the frequency response further to about ±1 dB over the audible band. I also shortened down the K-402s on top of the Jubilee bass bins by rotating them forward from their flush position to the bass bin by about 6-7 inches (15-18 cm) so that the K-402 horn axis is ~47 inches (1.2 m) above floor level (which is the ITU level for 5.1 surround sound arrays), such that they rest on the horn's taper closer to the horn throat (as shown in post #2). The last change reduced the group delay peaks around the crossover frequency measurably.
Of the changes that I made, it was the flattening of the phase that made the most noticeable difference to this "coming together" effect.
Chris
Note that I also flattened the frequency response further to about ±1 dB over the audible band. I also shortened down the K-402s on top of the Jubilee bass bins by rotating them forward from their flush position to the bass bin by about 6-7 inches (15-18 cm) so that the K-402 horn axis is ~47 inches (1.2 m) above floor level (which is the ITU level for 5.1 surround sound arrays), such that they rest on the horn's taper closer to the horn throat (as shown in post #2). The last change reduced the group delay peaks around the crossover frequency measurably.
Of the changes that I made, it was the flattening of the phase that made the most noticeable difference to this "coming together" effect.
Chris
What do you think about flipping over horn on 90 degrees?
Like in volti audio Alura
Will i hear difference?
Of distance between driver and woofer will be too big?
Like in volti audio Alura
Will i hear difference?
Of distance between driver and woofer will be too big?