Good day to all
Finally i have bought all drivers and horns for my system so i can start building theme
Here is the list what i have:
HF- faital HF10AK+ STH100 HORN
MID- Radian 950 + klipsch k402 horn
LF- faital 15pr400
I will use passive crossover, targets are 600hz@12db and 6000@6db
Autotransformers will be used instead of l-pads, maybe i’ll go with active crossover someday
I have a few questions :
1) displacement between radian and woofer will be about 40cm
If i will put drivers and woofers in phase, will I hear time delay?
I found passive crossover time delay scheme but it is very difficult
2) what is the best placement for HF10ak?( maybe in LF- section?)
Also i’m considering about making fronthorn enclosure like in tad 2301 to minimize drivers distance
Thanks in advance
With best regards, Andrew
Finally i have bought all drivers and horns for my system so i can start building theme
Here is the list what i have:
HF- faital HF10AK+ STH100 HORN
MID- Radian 950 + klipsch k402 horn
LF- faital 15pr400
I will use passive crossover, targets are 600hz@12db and 6000@6db
Autotransformers will be used instead of l-pads, maybe i’ll go with active crossover someday
I have a few questions :
1) displacement between radian and woofer will be about 40cm
If i will put drivers and woofers in phase, will I hear time delay?
I found passive crossover time delay scheme but it is very difficult
2) what is the best placement for HF10ak?( maybe in LF- section?)
Also i’m considering about making fronthorn enclosure like in tad 2301 to minimize drivers distance
Thanks in advance
With best regards, Andrew
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Is there any reason why you're using the separate 1" compression driver with the Radian 950PB doing only midrange duty? If you're using an add-on HF compression driver with its own horn separate from the K-402/Radian 950PB, you're going to have audible time alignment issues between those two-much greater than the lobing issue between the K-402 and the DR woofer. Some of these issues cannot be fixed even with DSP crossover time delays and FIR filtering, i.e., the vertical spacing of the tweeter to midrange horn centers in several wavelengths at the center crossover frequency.
I'd instead recommend using the Radian full range from ~500Hz-20 kHz. This has worked well for user AHall's Jubilee setup on the K-forum. I've got measurements of that configuration. It measures better than the K-402/K-691 configuration in spectrograms--which correlate to listening performance very closely, IME. Dual-diaphragm drivers--like the BMS 4592ND work even better at controlling FM distortion.
The vertical distance between the centerline of the K-402 and the woofer or bass bin will affect the group delay due to lobing vs. frequency. But this is much less audible than separate K-402 and tweeter+horn. Your proposed vertical center-to-center spacing of 40 cm (15 3/4") will sound good even if the group delay plot wiggles a bit above and below the crossover frequency. The closer that you can make them vertically, even overlapping the woofer box a bit by moving the K-402 forward a little, then delaying the HF channel by the requisite amount to compensate, the better the performance. User: Delicious2 and I both use this approach with good results. I recommend a low order crossover at 500-600 Hz--first order being my preference--and moving the K-402 around (assuming you're not using a DSP crossover to compensate for the delays). The listening performance is spectacular once you get everything dialed in with loudspeakers and the room's nearfield reflections.
Chris
I'd instead recommend using the Radian full range from ~500Hz-20 kHz. This has worked well for user AHall's Jubilee setup on the K-forum. I've got measurements of that configuration. It measures better than the K-402/K-691 configuration in spectrograms--which correlate to listening performance very closely, IME. Dual-diaphragm drivers--like the BMS 4592ND work even better at controlling FM distortion.
The vertical distance between the centerline of the K-402 and the woofer or bass bin will affect the group delay due to lobing vs. frequency. But this is much less audible than separate K-402 and tweeter+horn. Your proposed vertical center-to-center spacing of 40 cm (15 3/4") will sound good even if the group delay plot wiggles a bit above and below the crossover frequency. The closer that you can make them vertically, even overlapping the woofer box a bit by moving the K-402 forward a little, then delaying the HF channel by the requisite amount to compensate, the better the performance. User: Delicious2 and I both use this approach with good results. I recommend a low order crossover at 500-600 Hz--first order being my preference--and moving the K-402 around (assuming you're not using a DSP crossover to compensate for the delays). The listening performance is spectacular once you get everything dialed in with loudspeakers and the room's nearfield reflections.
Chris
Thanks for your reply, Chris
First of all, I don’t like sound of bms coaxial drivers, they sound thin for me and without some richness
Maybe 4592nd-mid is better, but I haven’t heard it yet
I measured radian 950 in k402, it has slowly decreasing frequency response and can’t play over 10khz without EQ, directivity over 10khz is also not acceptable
I have tried radian with capacitor (1 order@600hz) and I already had some issues
First of all, I don’t like sound of bms coaxial drivers, they sound thin for me and without some richness
Maybe 4592nd-mid is better, but I haven’t heard it yet
I measured radian 950 in k402, it has slowly decreasing frequency response and can’t play over 10khz without EQ, directivity over 10khz is also not acceptable
I have tried radian with capacitor (1 order@600hz) and I already had some issues
Hi Andrew
That sounds like a solid concept to me. Components, crossover, etc Good luck!
I think with the delay u could give it a try. 600 cycles will have about 57cm lambda. Try putting the K402 12cm closer to you standing out, it may not create much interference with woofer yet. But that will make an exact 28cm = 180° degree phaseshift which you compensate with inverted polarity. Having the lows about 1 milisecond ahead is on the limit. You could get away with it. Usually people have a threshold at 2ms.
Other alternative is being 90° offset which fits well to 2nd order filter of Butterworth q 0.7. The offset will flatten the response bump, similar to odd-order-butterworth. The Offset at 600Hz would be 14 or 43 cm.
Tweeter placement ... difficult. Play. Some say above 6k its not so crucial anymore. You could have an offset. Otherwise you could put it coaxial in the center of K402 and rear-dampen with foam to avoid reflection. Still the 6k of the Radian may suffer. Another alternative can be to cross higher, at 8-9k minimum, steeper like 12db-24db/O. Then the tweeter can be position less critical. Just on the very top to add some air. Not tearing your image apart anymore.
best regards
Josh
That sounds like a solid concept to me. Components, crossover, etc Good luck!
I think with the delay u could give it a try. 600 cycles will have about 57cm lambda. Try putting the K402 12cm closer to you standing out, it may not create much interference with woofer yet. But that will make an exact 28cm = 180° degree phaseshift which you compensate with inverted polarity. Having the lows about 1 milisecond ahead is on the limit. You could get away with it. Usually people have a threshold at 2ms.
Other alternative is being 90° offset which fits well to 2nd order filter of Butterworth q 0.7. The offset will flatten the response bump, similar to odd-order-butterworth. The Offset at 600Hz would be 14 or 43 cm.
Tweeter placement ... difficult. Play. Some say above 6k its not so crucial anymore. You could have an offset. Otherwise you could put it coaxial in the center of K402 and rear-dampen with foam to avoid reflection. Still the 6k of the Radian may suffer. Another alternative can be to cross higher, at 8-9k minimum, steeper like 12db-24db/O. Then the tweeter can be position less critical. Just on the very top to add some air. Not tearing your image apart anymore.
best regards
Josh
Thanks for interesting information , Josh
What do you think about 8k@12db crossover and tweeter placement in the LF-enclosure, just over woofer
Hi. That is a common way to do and certainly not bad. Especially visually attractive. Just consider then pulling out the midhorn for phase alignment is nogo as you’ll have strong tweeter reflection.
However I think that “air” above 8k changes a lot depending how you “illuminate” the room and its reverbance. It can be nice to have that channel flexible in terms of location before cutting a hole in the box. Maybe try for some time. I personally like to provoke reflections in that high frequencies. It pulls the stage more towards depth further away. Like when put on top of the mid horn, a part will bounce off the midhorn back to your frontwall and create a different perception of stage depth and space.
Its even stimulating to use two in different ways.
Cheers
Josh
However I think that “air” above 8k changes a lot depending how you “illuminate” the room and its reverbance. It can be nice to have that channel flexible in terms of location before cutting a hole in the box. Maybe try for some time. I personally like to provoke reflections in that high frequencies. It pulls the stage more towards depth further away. Like when put on top of the mid horn, a part will bounce off the midhorn back to your frontwall and create a different perception of stage depth and space.
Its even stimulating to use two in different ways.
Cheers
Josh
I think you have got something very good on the way!Nice choice of horns!Can you share how much for the k402 ;
I have both BMS 4592nd-mid and Radian 850. I tried them on 200hz round tractrix and also biradial 260hz horns. I do not let them play over 5-6khz but Radian sounds better than BMS. I prefer using two channels over midrange now, upper mid (5khz-10khz) and treble (10khz and over). However even when I tried with just tweeters on top, I still preferred the Radians sound playing up to about 6.5khz...
Agree, I dont like BMS either. A bit of harshness and lack of air, very forward imaging. Mainly due to 3k resonance, tons of phaseplug diffractions, narrow dispersion >6k.
What resonance at 3K?
I think that you've probably got horn issues or dialing-in issues instead. Same thing on your "narrow dispersion >6k".
I'd be careful about giving such comments without some sort of evidence to back it up.
In case you might want to know my experience (and I'm not hopeful on this point), the BMS 4592ND can subjectively perform almost identically to a TAD TD-4002 (the TADs of which I've owned for over 10 years now). I was flabbergasted how well it performed...but only after it was dialed in well.
Chris
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Hi Chris
Sure I made a lot and very intense experiences with the BMS.
Attached measures of standardized environment, all professional anchoic MLSSA etc. You see in the response the 3k bump may not look so threatening yet, rather like a "forward" tendency (though 3k is a sensitive area).
However, as we experienced - it was still being FIR equalized to absolute flat ! - the harshness was more audible. The impedance peak as you see unveils the cavity resonance. After we notched that out, it got actually very nice, I admit.
The problem with notching is that when the temperature or moisture changes, resonance change. And even though I can use FIR, I still prefer clean drivers.
The tweeter as you see (and those measures are smoothened already) is anyway rugged all over. The off axis too (its 30° here).
I dont say the BMS is not an excellent performing hi-end driver. But on the top notch level it doesnt compeed. I have the TD 4002 as well and would say its much better resolving - IF (IMPORTANT) used with separate tweeter 🙂 I would never run the 4002 till 20k. Its not good highs. Better take 2001.
However, the Radians are excellent too, and with separate tweeter Andrew made a good choice.
cheers
Josh
Sure I made a lot and very intense experiences with the BMS.
Attached measures of standardized environment, all professional anchoic MLSSA etc. You see in the response the 3k bump may not look so threatening yet, rather like a "forward" tendency (though 3k is a sensitive area).
However, as we experienced - it was still being FIR equalized to absolute flat ! - the harshness was more audible. The impedance peak as you see unveils the cavity resonance. After we notched that out, it got actually very nice, I admit.
The problem with notching is that when the temperature or moisture changes, resonance change. And even though I can use FIR, I still prefer clean drivers.
The tweeter as you see (and those measures are smoothened already) is anyway rugged all over. The off axis too (its 30° here).
I dont say the BMS is not an excellent performing hi-end driver. But on the top notch level it doesnt compeed. I have the TD 4002 as well and would say its much better resolving - IF (IMPORTANT) used with separate tweeter 🙂 I would never run the 4002 till 20k. Its not good highs. Better take 2001.
However, the Radians are excellent too, and with separate tweeter Andrew made a good choice.
cheers
Josh
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I can see that you have a problem. However, I can also see that there is next to nothing that I can say that's going to change that situation. I do recommend a much better horn than you used (but you probably have already convinced yourself that isn't the issue).
Good luck.
Chris
Good luck.
Chris
Hi Chris
Right i forgot. Above is measured in a 150Hz Spherical Tractrix.
Also checked in LeCleach and Kugelwellen. All same problems. But these are not my problems 🙂
What Horn do you use that makes the BMS sing?
Cheers
Josh
Right i forgot. Above is measured in a 150Hz Spherical Tractrix.
Also checked in LeCleach and Kugelwellen. All same problems. But these are not my problems 🙂
What Horn do you use that makes the BMS sing?
Cheers
Josh
I don't know any drivers that "sing". Sorry.
I believe that I annotated the information that you seek on the plot.
Thanks for your polite replies.
Chris
I believe that I annotated the information that you seek on the plot.
Thanks for your polite replies.
Chris
Andrew, have you run polar measurements of the Radian 950PB on the K-402? I'd like to see your data if you have. My checking measurements showed good performance of greater than 30 degrees off-axis at the -6 dB point using that driver, IIRC.
The single driver/horn aperture completely avoids the larger issue of lobing due to vertical separation of having two horn mouths at such high frequencies (6+ kHz) along with the phase growth and audible group delay that accompany that large vertical separation distance, i.e., 6-7 wavelengths at the crossover point. A little upstream EQ--which you must use anyway if using controlled directivity horns--easily corrects the 10+kHz SPL. Ref. KPT-942 configuration with either a passive or active crossover (the active version being commercial cinema THX certified).
Have you thought about adding a second 15" woofer to reduce AM and FM distortion further relative to the capability that you have on top, i.e., the K-402? There is a fairly large mismatch in capability there.
Chris
Sorry but I don’t have much experience with measurements Here’s measurement of radian 950 in k402 Measurement is made on axis, from 1m in avarage 20square meters room SE tube amp was used, so it may be not correct I’ll try with classic stone amp later I was considering about adding second pair of woofers, but i see some issues there... Radian is 8 ohm, 15pr400 is 8ohm. If i use woofers in series I would get 16ohm load but lower efficiency If i use them in paralel I would get lower impedance which is not good for tube amp But for now i need to solve issues with my 15pr400 Tried them with 10watt tube amp without enclosure and they sound absolutely bad😱 Seems like I should bought maxonic l401a which is rated as 60watts max and with resonance frequency 25hz
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Thanks for the reply. I understand about the dual woofer impedance issue using tube amplifiers that don't like really low impedance loads.
I'm not sure that you got anything that you wanted from your questions, but I did want to present the KPT-942 two-way configuration for your consideration in a way that was understandable and believable. The logic to doing it that way isn't commonly understood among the DIY crowd...but I didn't learn how to do it that way from DIY people. I instead learned it from the lead Klipsch engineer--from Roy Delgado himself over a long-term low level tutelage.
Also the bad press on the BMS 4592ND is just that--fake news in my experience. However, if you're not going to use a DSP crossover, perhaps the way that you're going with your separate tweeter will be almost as seamless. Be careful of the phase shifts of passive crossovers plus the time delay of the mid driver on the K-402 vs. the FaitalPRO horn/driver. The K-402 horn is so resolving, you will hear timbre shift issues if you don't correct the time delays by some means. The best that you can probably hope for is "phase alignment" instead of time alignment i.e., the K-402/Radian combination is one or more multiples of wavelengths behind your tweeter/horn at the center crossover frequency--just like Klipsch does it in their Heritage series of loudspeakers.
Chris
I'm not sure that you got anything that you wanted from your questions, but I did want to present the KPT-942 two-way configuration for your consideration in a way that was understandable and believable. The logic to doing it that way isn't commonly understood among the DIY crowd...but I didn't learn how to do it that way from DIY people. I instead learned it from the lead Klipsch engineer--from Roy Delgado himself over a long-term low level tutelage.
Also the bad press on the BMS 4592ND is just that--fake news in my experience. However, if you're not going to use a DSP crossover, perhaps the way that you're going with your separate tweeter will be almost as seamless. Be careful of the phase shifts of passive crossovers plus the time delay of the mid driver on the K-402 vs. the FaitalPRO horn/driver. The K-402 horn is so resolving, you will hear timbre shift issues if you don't correct the time delays by some means. The best that you can probably hope for is "phase alignment" instead of time alignment i.e., the K-402/Radian combination is one or more multiples of wavelengths behind your tweeter/horn at the center crossover frequency--just like Klipsch does it in their Heritage series of loudspeakers.
Chris
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I guess crossing @600Hz without some kind of time alignment would be very difficult to make it sound great. I tried to cross one of my speaker (vintage horn) @700Hz with analog crossover, but I ended up using digital time alignment as I usually do. I could not deal with strange phase relationship between and woofer and mid, which I do not really care for top and mid. I think this is the reason why Altec A7 and Klipsch horn did setback woofer.
Nonsense, i use the BMS 2" mid and it is an incredibly smooth and detaild mid. I think you have horn or crossover issues.
Its the only mid that sounds remotely close to the TAD. Both being detailed and as smooth as can be. Not much out there to beat it. I use mine in a Volti 260 horn. Best i have heard!!!
Do you say I lie or am incompetent? Wasn’t aware we know each other.
I believe this your valid perception.
If you say so. Gotta be true.
Im sorry for that. Is it a horn?
I have issues? Or the horn? Do you identify yourself with your speakers? Do you think you are a speaker?
If one does, it may explain why everyone has so hard feelings after I dare to say the BMS isnt sathisfying my quality expectations.
Stay relaxed. Everyone makes different experience. Good that measures give a reference.
Cheers
Josh