BrianDonegan said:
It makes sense to me for you guys to do what you're doing with the Opus, and I certainly don't think people lose "cred" by going that way, but I'm increasingly getting the uneasy feeling that your fledgling business doesn't belong in the DIY category anymore - at least - not for the Opus. Maybe it's just me? I don't know how others feel about it. I think you could easily alleviate my concerns (and maybe others) by maintaining a stock of bare boards for people to put together.
Of course, Russ knows I sell bare boards, but that's it. I certainly don't think I'm being hypocritical here.
Also what you have to remember about DIY, is there are different levels of what people are willing (or able in this case) to do themselves. Example, many simply are not able to deal with the tiny SMD stuff. Also we need to be sure the thing works, so partial mounting just was not viable, as there was not good way to test with just the chips mounted. I think its pretty easy to see why we did what we did. Its still very much DIY, its just not as nitty gritty.
Cheers!
Russ
Cheers!
Russ
ezkcdude said:
Thats because nobody has ever wanted one. Its simply not worth the bother. But all they have to do is ask. We are after all very much a user driven service.
Cheers!
Russ
Russ White said:
"Not worth the bother" - ummm...what's the name of this forum, again? I'd venture most of the folks here (and the ones no longer here) would argue with you on that one.Look at a guy like peufeu and his FPGA project - that's an example of the kind of thing this hobby is all about. Worth the bother? Yes.
ezkcdude said:
I am glad you like soldering TSOP, if you like I will reserve a bare board for you. 🙂
If that makes the project more fulfilling for you (or anyone else) then that is fantastic.
We aim to please.
Cheers!
Russ
ezkcdude said:
Oh sure, you and I may love to do things like that, but surely you must notice not everyone does... the people who can't or won't do SMT may still want to build the DAC, and that is still DIY.
Cheers!
Russ
Can we stop having this conversation? We offered kits, and everyone wanted pre-assembled. We offer to pre-assemble, and it's not DIY. I'll consider it a business and not a hobby when I am not constantly trying to find room on credit cards to host all the debt of buying all the parts, and I maybe start to make a profit.
I will sell a kit to anyone who wants one, or a bare board. It's too much work to pre-assemble build and build kits, that's why it's one or the other. I don't have the time.
I'm sure my kids would appreciate it if I just gave up on all this stuff and just played trains.
FWIW: I took the bare boards off the page because A) no one was ordering them and B) there are enough options up there already to make it confusing.
I will sell a kit to anyone who wants one, or a bare board. It's too much work to pre-assemble build and build kits, that's why it's one or the other. I don't have the time.
I'm sure my kids would appreciate it if I just gave up on all this stuff and just played trains.
FWIW: I took the bare boards off the page because A) no one was ordering them and B) there are enough options up there already to make it confusing.
I'm guilty toooooooo!!
But I'll build the power supply and put it in a purty box!!!
I encouraged Russ to do this....
Variac😀
But I'll build the power supply and put it in a purty box!!!
I encouraged Russ to do this....
Variac😀
I find SMD presoldered a good solution.
If somebody doesnt like the preassembled solution because they think this is not DIY, you dont have to buy the KIT. This is just an option.
You can still make a DAC like this from scratch if you prefer.
If somebody doesnt like the preassembled solution because they think this is not DIY, you dont have to buy the KIT. This is just an option.
You can still make a DAC like this from scratch if you prefer.
I'm one of the guys that would buy this kit and call it DIY because I made the box
And I would still ask questions 😀
And I would still ask questions 😀
Feel free to choose what's the best for you.
I'm not very skilled in SMD soldering,so it's a good solution for me !
I'm not very skilled in SMD soldering,so it's a good solution for me !
BrianDonegan said:
Please no. This is a good occasion for many people to demonstrate to you and Russ how much we appreciate your work. 🙂
Maybe the most important part of diy is the project? After following since May 2006 this thread, the smell of solder is not so important any more.
What I like in Twistedpearaudio site is that there is a lot to learn while, in most "traditional" diy sites, a lot to solder and nothing to learn.
thomaseliot said:
I think everyone has his/her own philosophy...
Some likes to soldering, some doesn't...
Some likes to making the box/case, some doesn't...
(To me, the most tiresome job is making the case for the kits)
Some likes to design, some doesn't...
Some likes to tweak capacitors/resistors, some doesn't...
When it comes to money and business,
everyone become defensive (This remind me of RXX WXXX audio months ago...)
But seller has his only philosophy,
You can't ask Jan in 41Hz why you can't sell the assembled kit while ask Mr. white why you can't sell the PCB...
Of course some will happy and some won't...
If a DIY company wants to make everyone happy.
I think they should sell PCB for hard-core DIYer, PCB+kits, assembled kits, and finished product with case...
Cover every level and make everyone happy...😀
that would definitely make everyone happy, but Brian and Russ would have no time for anything other than the insane amount of work of packing and labeling everything to their standards.
The kit's that I have received from twisted pear have been nothing but phenomenal; I expected a simple baggy with all the parts stuffed inside, but every single part was labeled with a part description, and the relevant item number that is labeled on the board. After seeing those, I can definitely understand the decision to only offer one type of package instead of both. Especially with the low prices that they offer they can't be making much money.
In short....thanks for being so awesome Brian and Russ 😀
The kit's that I have received from twisted pear have been nothing but phenomenal; I expected a simple baggy with all the parts stuffed inside, but every single part was labeled with a part description, and the relevant item number that is labeled on the board. After seeing those, I can definitely understand the decision to only offer one type of package instead of both. Especially with the low prices that they offer they can't be making much money.
In short....thanks for being so awesome Brian and Russ 😀
THANK YOU!!!!
You people who are involved in the project at any level, are the ONLY reason I am still doing this. Thanks so much for all the support. I have made some very good friends here.
To me Opus is a very interesting project on a lot of levels. Everything is open, nothing is hidden or mysterious. I know people who have built from the kits, and I know people who have just used the information on this thread to design their own Opus-like DAC and I applaud that. I can think of at least 5 examples of new designs that were inspired by *THIS* simple DAC discussion and based on the work we (I and others) share freely here. THAT friends is of course the whole point of the thread, and the forum.
This continues to be an engaging learning exercise. The great thing is, it gets people interested in the hobby and the techniques and technology being used, and they start to see why design decisions and compromises are made and how they might impact them when they USE the end result. This is interactive learning, exactly what a forum is for. The payoff can be the same no matter where you join the journey.
All of that said, some couldn't give a flip about the design and/or soldering process, its just not their thing, to them perhaps they just want to "assemble" it and then listen to some good music. They may enjoy some aspects or producing the DAC, but not all the details. Why should they be excluded? Some people like to build cases and do those sorts of things, but are not engineers, nor do they care for the minutia some of us might relish. I do not find those people any less "DIYers" than I. We just enjoy different aspects.
I despise the "DIY elitist" attitude that seems to creep into this hobby from time to time. Taking this confounding idea to the next logical step, people should never buy PCBs (anyone's) either and we would all learn to use PCB design software, and become amateur engineers, as buying PCBs would surely would not be "DIY" enough... Whats next? we have to fabricate our own semiconductors and ICs to be DIY enough? Good grief...
It is my belief that you can and should look at a finished module as any other component, like an opamp, a microntroller, or system on a chip. You are no less a DIYer for using any of those things, or are you???🙄
If I don't communicate anything else, you must understand this, we aren't swayed by an elitist narrow view. The guardians of the "DIY elite" caste who seem to want to protect you from yourself can have that esoteric argument for themselves. I believe you should do what *YOU* want and that may or may not involve soldering SMT. 😎
It seems to me that everyone can get what they want out this thread. The hardcore can layout a PCB and build a DAC with just the info here, and the enthusiast who just wants a great DAC and can finish a case and power supply and then can listen to some excellent music.
BTW if you ever care to bother sharing a personal email with me ask me how much money I have made (ok hint the word is lost) from TPA. I probably have given away more complete DACs and amplifiers of all sorts than most have built. Fortunately I am blessed with a very successful career, *THIS* is only a hobby for me, a few thousand here are there I can (and do) live without. It is part of the cost of having fun. Just like playing golf or driving fast cars. 🙂 Brian works tirelessly producing kits and finishing modules, and charges far too little. Brian deserves most of the credit for keeping things going. He an asset to the hobby.
Right now, TPA is more of a mechanism for us to recoup our cost than it is for us to make money. That said, if TPA does ever become profitable (at that point I will call it a business) I will feel ZERO guilt, people deserve compensation for work performed, we have more than paid our dues I believe.
So thanks to all who publicly and privately have written to show support for what we do. We exist for you, err... well and to build some stuff for ourselves. 😀
Cheers!
Russ
You people who are involved in the project at any level, are the ONLY reason I am still doing this. Thanks so much for all the support. I have made some very good friends here.
To me Opus is a very interesting project on a lot of levels. Everything is open, nothing is hidden or mysterious. I know people who have built from the kits, and I know people who have just used the information on this thread to design their own Opus-like DAC and I applaud that. I can think of at least 5 examples of new designs that were inspired by *THIS* simple DAC discussion and based on the work we (I and others) share freely here. THAT friends is of course the whole point of the thread, and the forum.
This continues to be an engaging learning exercise. The great thing is, it gets people interested in the hobby and the techniques and technology being used, and they start to see why design decisions and compromises are made and how they might impact them when they USE the end result. This is interactive learning, exactly what a forum is for. The payoff can be the same no matter where you join the journey.
All of that said, some couldn't give a flip about the design and/or soldering process, its just not their thing, to them perhaps they just want to "assemble" it and then listen to some good music. They may enjoy some aspects or producing the DAC, but not all the details. Why should they be excluded? Some people like to build cases and do those sorts of things, but are not engineers, nor do they care for the minutia some of us might relish. I do not find those people any less "DIYers" than I. We just enjoy different aspects.
I despise the "DIY elitist" attitude that seems to creep into this hobby from time to time. Taking this confounding idea to the next logical step, people should never buy PCBs (anyone's) either and we would all learn to use PCB design software, and become amateur engineers, as buying PCBs would surely would not be "DIY" enough... Whats next? we have to fabricate our own semiconductors and ICs to be DIY enough? Good grief...
It is my belief that you can and should look at a finished module as any other component, like an opamp, a microntroller, or system on a chip. You are no less a DIYer for using any of those things, or are you???🙄
If I don't communicate anything else, you must understand this, we aren't swayed by an elitist narrow view. The guardians of the "DIY elite" caste who seem to want to protect you from yourself can have that esoteric argument for themselves. I believe you should do what *YOU* want and that may or may not involve soldering SMT. 😎
It seems to me that everyone can get what they want out this thread. The hardcore can layout a PCB and build a DAC with just the info here, and the enthusiast who just wants a great DAC and can finish a case and power supply and then can listen to some excellent music.
BTW if you ever care to bother sharing a personal email with me ask me how much money I have made (ok hint the word is lost) from TPA. I probably have given away more complete DACs and amplifiers of all sorts than most have built. Fortunately I am blessed with a very successful career, *THIS* is only a hobby for me, a few thousand here are there I can (and do) live without. It is part of the cost of having fun. Just like playing golf or driving fast cars. 🙂 Brian works tirelessly producing kits and finishing modules, and charges far too little. Brian deserves most of the credit for keeping things going. He an asset to the hobby.
Right now, TPA is more of a mechanism for us to recoup our cost than it is for us to make money. That said, if TPA does ever become profitable (at that point I will call it a business) I will feel ZERO guilt, people deserve compensation for work performed, we have more than paid our dues I believe.
So thanks to all who publicly and privately have written to show support for what we do. We exist for you, err... well and to build some stuff for ourselves. 😀
Cheers!
Russ