Recently visited Capital Audio Show. While there were many rooms with great sound, none would easily qualify as euphoric.
One room which always stands out for smooth musical and pleasing sound is nola.
I bet those mids are of high quality. But tube pre and tube power monoblocks are responsible for great sound too.
Here are some pics, enjoy.
One room which always stands out for smooth musical and pleasing sound is nola.
I bet those mids are of high quality. But tube pre and tube power monoblocks are responsible for great sound too.
Here are some pics, enjoy.
Attachments
My 12" Lavoces are crossed to Alpair 5.3 @ ~500Hz and they are good for 14kHz. They may go higher but I'm too scared to check.
Project stage: 70L wood monkey coffins and wave guides functional. Now it's just a matter of some after-care to tighten up loose ends.
XO: 1st order passives in the interim. The woofers were a bit ragged and 'lively' before sticking a coil on them. A shallow 6dB roll-off is funny because the woofers still basically play full range, just with a very warm, mellow tonal tilt. The wave-guides will need a couple of notches in the active filters to tame them, but the PCBs "might" be ready in time for Christmas (lol).
The active filters consist of a wild mix of JFET buffers and MOSFET compound pairs, and very interesting TL431 shunt regs for 1M:1 reduction in line ripple. Tone-wise, I haven't decided whether to go for:
1) 12dB active + 6dB passive @ 500Hz
2) a more aggressive 24dB + 6dB.
3) no-coil: 12dB active + mixed mode amplifier.
My gut tells me that even a combined 18dB filter might kill the tone, because I just love how the woofers really fill the room, with a very gradual mellowing-out as you exit further away to the kitchen. Whereas the wave guides are very pointy.
With option 3, the speaker will unload the amplifier at high frequencies, counter-acting the 12dB filter somewhat.
have that 'big' soundDesigning amplifiers with exotic feedback paths are surprisingly smooth
So you don't like a midrange with 95dB sensitivity, a 3" voice coil and 2,5g moving mass? The lowest THD you can measure?
Which plays without breakup and strong focusing an octave higher as your crossover frequency?
Just add 2 12", cross over at 400-450Hz and you are good.
https://atc.audio/hi-fi/loudspeakers/tower-series/scm200aslt/
You are the first person I "meet" who doesn't like the sound of a 3" midrange dome. Where did you hear them, in what speaker? What was the problem?
Except for the ATC, they all lack spl capabilities. Or needs to be crossed too high( bliesma) making them 'filler'drivers.
The new SS faceplate makes it a 7" ish, and have a too high price tag, especially when they have consistency issues, due to they're chosen elliptical voice coil design, 3500$ each is ridicilous for a product with qc issues.
Which ones of them can deliver an actual 95db with 20-30db of dynamic range available, at 3- 7meters? 🙃
Noone said they don't sound good.
The main attraction imo, would be using a 3/4 tweeter, 3" mid, xx" midbass, trying to get a speaker managing the 1/4 wavelength spacing for a 'coherent output".
Just when you thought it was safe to send something on mobile, and you triple-checked that there was no left-over cr@p from editing at the end of the monologue
Bliesma has higher sensitivity as the ATC and takes a lot of power like the ATC. I'm very sure it can easily achieve the same max SPL.
I cross it at 450Hz to 2x 12" - not deep enough?
Yes - I'm the same opinion. Crazy driver.
That's EXACTLY the usecase of a farfield studio monitor. You know the big ones with the 3" mid drivers
You don't have more than 20dB dynamic range on a record btw ... but you sometimes need it in the studio during recording. You also don't have 6dB fall off in a closed room with double distance btw.
What you are asking here is 140dBSpl max ... 110dBSpl sensitivity and 1000W peak. I'm pretty sure that's a "little" over the top for someone searching a euphoric high-end midrange and listening to music ...
A 3/4" tweeter can't produce the needed SPL. Even 1" is stressed, you would need something like the Bliesma 34mm driver for max SPL.
But what you write here is exactly what I am doing with a 3" midrange. Glueing a 1" tweeter as close as possible and crossing over as deep as possible. 1/4 wavelength is 43mm at 2kHz - that's not to achieve.
But you get closer & louder & lower THD as with a normal midrange driver. And no dispersion notch. Gets closer to a good Coax as most speakers.
And sounds fantastic btw ;-)
"Large midranges" Legacy Audio uses them https://legacyaudio.com/products/masters-collection
These 2 Interviews with Bill Dundleston are very good, IMO!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bill-dudleston-of-legacy-audio/id1332323668?i=1000429225553
You can find the second one here, and its exceptional once it moves along.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/legacy-audio-with-bill-dudleston/id1546794136?i=1000515485286
These 2 Interviews with Bill Dundleston are very good, IMO!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bill-dudleston-of-legacy-audio/id1332323668?i=1000429225553
You can find the second one here, and its exceptional once it moves along.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/legacy-audio-with-bill-dudleston/id1546794136?i=1000515485286
I had Proac EBS Monitor 3 with those drivers and listened to ATC SCM40 just a few weeks ago .
"Euforic" would be the last word I'd describe them and that's the topic of the thread, no?
In the end I regret selling Proac cheaply and sending them East overseas. Sometimes you simply need and "accountant" type of speaker for reality check. But to make one "accountant type of speaker" after another and another is like getting married of convenience , starting to drink out of boredom and desperation , getting screwed on divorce and after a few months repeating the process and again after that...
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Lowther DX3 and DX4 in 200Hz Azura Horn were absolutely Euforic sounding. Stunningly so, but were also immensely frustrating and inconsistent. "Euforic" drivers are pretty well recognized and priced accordingly. There are some less known gems and some still waiting to be discovered. Just forget the reason and common sense and " buck for money urge" and buy them to see for yourself.
Most of posting here have the necessary skills to build a system around them . I don't. I can recognize the otherworldly midbass of Altec 803A (not cheap anymore) some nice qualities of Altec bi-flex , or other vintage drivers but they are not simple to capitalize on because of obvious shortcomings of those drivers requiring complimenting them with equally good transducers and making the system tick. It is a serious "one off " design effort which won't pay off with satisfaction coming from people building and prizing it because it's very difficult to source those drivers.
Most of posting here have the necessary skills to build a system around them . I don't. I can recognize the otherworldly midbass of Altec 803A (not cheap anymore) some nice qualities of Altec bi-flex , or other vintage drivers but they are not simple to capitalize on because of obvious shortcomings of those drivers requiring complimenting them with equally good transducers and making the system tick. It is a serious "one off " design effort which won't pay off with satisfaction coming from people building and prizing it because it's very difficult to source those drivers.
Yes it has higher sensitivity, 1db or 3db depending on the version.
Bliesma M74A- XMax 2,4mm (p-p), as for power handling never saw a stated number.
I have not tinkered with them enough to know what is 'under the hood' so maybe it has
The SM75-150S is 94db., Xmax 6mm (p-p). And that is the modern underhung version with 'low excursion' capabilities.
Normal Power Rating - 75 W. Maximum Input Power - 150 W. Maximum Programme Power - 300 W.
The older ones had a higher xmax rating and overhung design.
It has it's issues too with clearances, the huge magnet makes it close to a 7" too, when you reach as deep as the magnet.
ATC rating of they're largest speaker with one 75-150 is 121db@ 1m crossed at 380hz.
That depends on your source and material really.
But 20 is a good and normal number to shoot for concerning headroom, it is not unusual that classical/orchestral music has 30db, some electronic music although most is squished flat. And of course movie content.
There are of course exceptions both ways.
Old gems of high DNR LP's, Master tapes etc, will usually benefit from more.
That's EXACTLY the usecase of a farfield studio monitor. You know the big ones with the 3" mid drivers
Yes Neumann and Genelec have some nice examples, but they have other drivers available to them, then the general DIY crowd, and the money to pay for development
Although not the only type of studiomonitors around. But some do measure and perform excellent, for example the Neumann KH420.
Yes a little maybe. 120 does most of us plenty good, or bad for the ears,. Some desire a lot less, music is what most of us use them for in one way or another.
The euphonic part is totally subjective though, hard to ask for a more vague and subjective to answer question.
He will get 500 answers, as everyone suggests what we like and have good experiences with, and maybe he will not be all that much wiser.
I could suggest my old TAD 1201 12" mids, outstanding in they're limited range. But i did not think the Op was looking in such a direction either.
Yes that is kinda what i was hinting at the T34A and B are remarkable dome tweeters, from my experience. Nothing else made and easily available, that i know of that has the ability to play really clean at high output levels. Along with it's other positives.
But the M74's can't really keep up with it in output capability, so it makes them a natural match to the T25s.
I have no doubt that they are excellent in every other way.
Yes a 1/4 wl / point source is hard to achieve outside a coax or meh.
If one has the availability of a 3/4 and 2" it is doable not counting faceplate sizes.
Such a design will always have different compromises, then when wanting high spl capability ofc.
Your 1" and 3" will have some more headroom, so might do well indeed.
Personally THD is not the first thing i look at.
IMD is a much larger concern IMO.
A "normal home" today have 40-60 db noise level, in large parts of the world.
90 db @3m is not very loud, if one has 50db noise level. How are one supposed to notice a few % of THD at -50db, with all the noise pollution that is there already ontop of room reflections and modes? I live in the "wilderness", so noise pollution is not really a issue 95% of the time.
Also low levels of THD are not really noticeable and objectionable, neesecearily, Geddes is quite spot on with most of that from my experience.
Also the most difficult measurements to rely on when posted by third parties is no doubt THD, as it measures your systems distortion, recorded with a microphone that distorts to varying degrees through it's band, and random varying noise levels for people that live in "normal" conditions.
Looking for differences of 0,5% can be a hit and miss, there are more measurement error, and background noise in many setups.
Eventually that is what matters the most
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I'd like to draw attention to the TangBand 75-1558 3" dome midrange. It can not cross quite as low as the ATC but has even lower distortion in the upper midrange.
The comment earlier that nobody has copied the same performance as the ATC is a good point. It seems like an obvious play. One of the main design aspects is having a spider. Obviously also a massive magnet, which could neo these days.
The comment earlier that nobody has copied the same performance as the ATC is a good point. It seems like an obvious play. One of the main design aspects is having a spider. Obviously also a massive magnet, which could neo these days.
ATC mid It's not an "euforic driver" . It is pretty much tonally dead as required by studio work . More of a tool really than a pleasure toy. Hardly suitable to any home application in my opinion. The topic is Euforic midrange driver not "the lowest THD driver" besides its an upper midrange driver usually crossed above human voice fundamental range.
even Volts don’t go quite as low in freq. near the average Spl.
https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/speaker/vm752-3inch/
Most other 3” domes start loosing output below 900-1kHz
The HiVi DM-7500 has decent extension and low distortion, but it’s not as linear (though it is a LOT less expensive).
https://www.parts-express.com/HiVi-DM-7500-3-Soft-Dome-Midrange-Driver-6-Ohms-297-470?quantity=1
Well.. it does “shave-off” some detail and it does tend to present a slightly more vivid image. Even the more efficient Volts on that PMC loudspeaker video I provided was reducing the “sharpness” of the sax - so some might get a more euphoric feeling listening to them.
HiFiCompass subjective comments with the different material diaphragms for the Bliesma’s tend to highlight those differences: (scroll way down on page for subjective response)
https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/bliesma-m74a-6-m74b-6-m74p-6-and-m74s-6
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While also quite expensive, I’d select this driver over one of the less efficient ATC 3” mid-domes:
https://audiotechnology.dk/flexunits/4-h-52-06-13-sd-8240/
-about the same Spl result per 1watt/1meter..
..and the AT range have a particular euphonic quality. “buttery detail” IMO with slightly more detail with good transient attack and a “supple“ low compression decay.
If you need more detail then that without the very slight rounded/“buttery” result but with the same “supple” low compression decay then look to the Morel 6” Carbon Supreme’s.
https://audiotechnology.dk/flexunits/4-h-52-06-13-sd-8240/
-about the same Spl result per 1watt/1meter..
..and the AT range have a particular euphonic quality. “buttery detail” IMO with slightly more detail with good transient attack and a “supple“ low compression decay.
If you need more detail then that without the very slight rounded/“buttery” result but with the same “supple” low compression decay then look to the Morel 6” Carbon Supreme’s.
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Scott , if you have listened to JBL LE-8 focusing on midrange or old WE , Altec drivers or Lowther when the weather , electricity and all the audio Gods are favorable (and those damn SOBs need all three) than it's obvious what an "euforic " (euphonic) midrange is.
Dome midrange is none of those things. It does not have a cone area and a bandwidth to be the one as marvelous as it may be.
It's simply not a subject of the treads topic.
I think its a driver for engineering type of listeners who almost never have a good sound in their rooms. I said almost because I have a friend who is an electrical engineer at Ford and he has the most realistic sounding rig I've ever heard. Vintage multi channel horn setup with custom DHP tube amps. The rig sucks on classical music but it's effing scary good on rock/pop/electronica and this is how it should be. You can't have it all on this earth.
Dome midrange is none of those things. It does not have a cone area and a bandwidth to be the one as marvelous as it may be.
It's simply not a subject of the treads topic.
I think its a driver for engineering type of listeners who almost never have a good sound in their rooms. I said almost because I have a friend who is an electrical engineer at Ford and he has the most realistic sounding rig I've ever heard. Vintage multi channel horn setup with custom DHP tube amps. The rig sucks on classical music but it's effing scary good on rock/pop/electronica and this is how it should be. You can't have it all on this earth.
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Lowthers. and large Altecs yes
I get “tone” from the Altecs (I think they were 16”s) from the cone bending near the surround - big rounded character to images.
Lowthers I’d describe as “fast” with horrible treble and a “lean” upper bass.
Never heard those JBL’s, like diatones?
”colored” not specifically euphonic - would be my descriptor of choice. Colored typically has deviations in linearity. Euphonic could ALSO be colored, but it doesn’t have to be. Ex. I like the fast character of the Lowthers - that’s euphonic, but everything else about them just sounds colored to me and because of that I tend to think of them first as colored.
To me dome mids can fit into euphonic: they can be pleasing and are rarely truly neutral sounding. The same can be said for a Dynaudio/Morel silk dome tweeter vs. a good metal dome tweeter, NOT colored but definitely euphonic.
I get “tone” from the Altecs (I think they were 16”s) from the cone bending near the surround - big rounded character to images.
Lowthers I’d describe as “fast” with horrible treble and a “lean” upper bass.
Never heard those JBL’s, like diatones?
”colored” not specifically euphonic - would be my descriptor of choice. Colored typically has deviations in linearity. Euphonic could ALSO be colored, but it doesn’t have to be. Ex. I like the fast character of the Lowthers - that’s euphonic, but everything else about them just sounds colored to me and because of that I tend to think of them first as colored.
To me dome mids can fit into euphonic: they can be pleasing and are rarely truly neutral sounding. The same can be said for a Dynaudio/Morel silk dome tweeter vs. a good metal dome tweeter, NOT colored but definitely euphonic.
I heared the big PMCs in a huge room cranked up - that was definitive an euphoric experience! So natural midrange at that level is one of the best experiences for me you can have with listening to music.
No idea why everybody is underestimatin these drivers. M74B has 98dB at 2,83V
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/bliesma/bliesma-m74b-6
T34 is rated with 80W with a 34mm coil, the 74mm coil can for sure take the double amount. I did a few conservative calculations and get 117dBSpl at 100W - you can for sure get 3dB more peak.
I would of course not cross it at 380Hz when you aim for that level, Xmax is not enough for that. But it can easily achieve the level of the ATC.
Btw I calculated 113dBSpl for T34B (80W) and 106dBSpl for T25B (with more relaistic 40W).
I know the older version and it takes plenty of power and is able to relatively low. So a very good budget option but doesn't have the sensitivity of the top tier.
I started my jurney with 2x 2" midrange and 3/4" tweeter. At the moment 2,5" midrange and 1" Beryllium (first ScanSpeak, now Bliesma). These little 1" drivers get better spacing als usual 3/4" tweeters, the frontplate of the MD60N can be taken off and routed - I'm at about 85mm distance of centers now. This was definitely an upgrade to the original configuration.
Next step is M74B and T25B. I'm also experimenting with M74A with self printed faceplate for an other project, you can get about 10mm little closer that way and get again around 85mm distance of the centers. Getting closer as that with drivers which can produce serious SPL (no 2" widebands) is pretty hard ...
Take WE 555 , Altec big format driver or even SOB TAD and load it up with 100hz horn . Listen to a human voice. Does it sound like a human voice ? Take 6" -12" and listen to a human voice . Does it sound like one ? Take Midrange dome be it ATC or any other . Put it on the baffle and run it full range with appropriate precautions . Does it sound like a human voice or a tweeter? It sounds like a tweeter because in essence it is one
I think those differences even when linerized are from changes in apparent acoustic center diameter for a given freq. and in context to baffle bounding and diffraction.
In other words the radiation pattern isn’t the same as the sound expands outward (gradient).
Within its *passband a good dome mid. sounds like a person speaking in a different environment - just like other good designs.
*supported below an above that with a linear result from different drivers.
In other words the radiation pattern isn’t the same as the sound expands outward (gradient).
Within its *passband a good dome mid. sounds like a person speaking in a different environment - just like other good designs.
*supported below an above that with a linear result from different drivers.
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