Here‘e the thing Andy, neither situation you’re asking is a ‘midrange’ application…….it’s a two way using a midbass and tweeter with each driver extending its range beyond what the physics dictate given the driver size and the relationship to directivity and cone/dome material
The reason these systems are so successful is they work VERY WELL with average to poorly recorded content……the deficiencies of the drivers are at the end of their pass band and within the crossover range where time and phase coherence is smeared. Play these recordings through a well designed 3 way with a dedicated midrange driver (300hz-4khz) and they’re fully exposed of their flaws.
Now the classic debate that’s being repeated here is the dedicated midrange driver that makes ALL midrange content sound good…..or ‘euphoric’ as the thread title states. In truth, such a driver DOES NOT exist as you simply can’t recover from mistakes made in and on the original recording. Large dome midranges ‘can’ somewhat save the day if used properly…..just poking through the passbands of the woofer and tweeter where the midrange phase response dominates by effectively blending with the other drivers phase response. In practice, this is EXTREMELY hard to accomplish but when it’s successful, it’s amazing in its presentation and will ALWAYS outperform the extended passband 2 way application you’re asking about.
I would add it is hard to make it full range listening in 20 L with a 2.5W SET amp. That's why all the answers were turning around hifi drivers and not PA ones (20 L is a limited factor with a 2 way and low power amp like yours). and 2.5 W whatever PA driver is staying low sized for bass (and that's why I inputed for a good avialable 5.5" and a unique bass driver with a plate amp in the futur for a 2 + 1 system which would cope just fine in your room and low sized 20 L cabinets)
As a reminder for the readers, Andy is needing good readeness from 40 hz as a bass instrument player and enthusiast.
As a reminder for the readers, Andy is needing good readeness from 40 hz as a bass instrument player and enthusiast.
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Where a driver startys beaming is heavily dependent on the cone shape, so nailing a specific point where beaming starts has to consier the specific driver.
And how do you decide/define where the beaming starts?
dave
These imaged VERY well.
The participants bar eDaveR master series XO guy, and Cal (my ex banned the no-shirts for later diyFESTs).
dave
With nsuch an amp you really have to worry about speaker impedance… it needs to be flattish. Means an XO that causes wild swings in the impedance are not a good idea.
dave
And I would add -stop using those glorified EQ boxes in a form of 2W tube amps pretending that they are better than a plate amp even though it was proven over and over again they are not. It's 21st century so get with the program , buy a copy of " TOP GUN _Maverick " and join the club. Prepare to be amazed !
For myself I have to say that visiting HT installations of my audio buddies in the third one with A TOP Gun playing to "DEMO" the system I was beginning to feel slightly exhausted from all that constant ecstasy.
London is supposed to be a Mecca of HiFi . It should not be that hard to borrow some stuff and try it out
For myself I have to say that visiting HT installations of my audio buddies in the third one with A TOP Gun playing to "DEMO" the system I was beginning to feel slightly exhausted from all that constant ecstasy.
London is supposed to be a Mecca of HiFi . It should not be that hard to borrow some stuff and try it out
I would also say that we already found the best cone /dome material which is ?? All other are worse and the yellow ones are made to satisfy the owners of blue apartments , silver for the modern trendy folk and black are reserved for misers and saintly charitable sound engineers so there is no distraction when they put themselves into ZEN state before touching controls. But all the colors sound the same given the recording was made on Genuine "MADE in UK " Studio Monitor . If it was fake China ghetto blaster all bets are off of course and the only solution is to use transparent plastic cone based 2 way to survive the cacophony of a mix.
Fostex FF85wKeN. My favourite Fostex (and probably the only one i could live with full-time. Maybe FF165wKeN as well. Not as refined but does bass.
dave
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What a beauties ! wearing a shirt while listening to those would be a crime ! Also not having a glass of beer around 
Basically all modern mids are good and sound about the same i.e excellent! They are excellent at playing music and wanting more "excellence " is simply not a serious question.
Basically all modern mids are good and sound about the same i.e excellent! They are excellent at playing music and wanting more "excellence " is simply not a serious question.
I like speaker which not only perform good on axis an an anechoic chamber but also are linear in the room. Off axis response is the key for that.
So the answer to your question is - it depends on the system. With a wide radiation tweeter (=normal tweeter) both attempts are bad. You would need a waveguided tweeter which is tailored to the behaviour of the midrange. But even then I would cross an 8" in the 1,5k to 2k range (1,8k in my home cineam speaker with a horn) and the 6,5" in the 2-max 2,5kHz range.
Thanks for that. I'm seeing 8" crossing over at 1.8K to a waveguide in several posts. I will have to look seriously at that. You've opened my mind to a lot of ways of designing speakers that I was previously unfamiliar with, having been brought up on 2-way boxes without any inkling of what a waveguide is or can do. This is new stuff for me - it has changed my views on what a contemporary tweeter is or can be.
"You didn't like the 3.5 ?"
You did? -Pipe and sleepers
Years ago my former friend ( who developed a rather nasty case of audiophile neurosis ) was on quest to replace his Audio Physic Libra speakers. Now those speakers are anything I like conceptually but it was hard not to like them on audition. Fairly modest assembly of drivers superbly integrated.
The room was rather large American dwelling and those are speakers for medium European spaces.
He spotted a pair of those Proac 3.5 behemoths within driving distance and fairly cheap and bought them. Next day he called me alarmed claiming the speakers are broken. I went there checked everything and nothing seemed wrong. Libras were dwarfing those Proacs on Bass , scale and other "audiophile " qualities -This with Audio research Classic 120 monos and Audio Note M6 pre. Tweeter on those Proacs was suspiciously shy and famous "proac bite" wasn't to be found. I contacted Mr. Speaker himself to ask about possible causes. He kind of laughed and said people have misconception about this speaker based on size. He has them in his office and listen to a radio daily on them. Another miss was Ref 3A Grand Veena - to this day it is a mystery to me to what space that speaker was designed. It doesn't work in a bigger space and any other for that matter. We tried it in every room of that house. Famous full range audibly distorts used in bigger spaces with levels slightly higher than casual listening. There is nothing special abut it. I wouldn't mind buying Audio Physic even now but Grand Veena I wouldn't want for free.
You did? -Pipe and sleepers
Years ago my former friend ( who developed a rather nasty case of audiophile neurosis ) was on quest to replace his Audio Physic Libra speakers. Now those speakers are anything I like conceptually but it was hard not to like them on audition. Fairly modest assembly of drivers superbly integrated.
The room was rather large American dwelling and those are speakers for medium European spaces.
He spotted a pair of those Proac 3.5 behemoths within driving distance and fairly cheap and bought them. Next day he called me alarmed claiming the speakers are broken. I went there checked everything and nothing seemed wrong. Libras were dwarfing those Proacs on Bass , scale and other "audiophile " qualities -This with Audio research Classic 120 monos and Audio Note M6 pre. Tweeter on those Proacs was suspiciously shy and famous "proac bite" wasn't to be found. I contacted Mr. Speaker himself to ask about possible causes. He kind of laughed and said people have misconception about this speaker based on size. He has them in his office and listen to a radio daily on them. Another miss was Ref 3A Grand Veena - to this day it is a mystery to me to what space that speaker was designed. It doesn't work in a bigger space and any other for that matter. We tried it in every room of that house. Famous full range audibly distorts used in bigger spaces with levels slightly higher than casual listening. There is nothing special abut it. I wouldn't mind buying Audio Physic even now but Grand Veena I wouldn't want for free.
In terms of sounding "pretty", especially with tubes, the Audax PR170MO is one of the best reasonably priced larger mids I've heard. It runs in a very wide banded softer breakup mode with lots of 2nd order harmonics.
For my personal taste, the ScanSpeak D7608-9200 is hard to beat. It just does the perfect balance of midrange for my ears. Its very fussy with xover on the HP slope, but worth the fuss when you hear how holographic it can sound with a smaller midbass crossed around 800 hz 2nd order.
The Morel CAM558 or MDM55 is also a contender crossed just shy of 800 to 900 hz. Its flat to 4k and crosses very easily with a 1st order filter to a small 19mm dome.
For my personal taste, the ScanSpeak D7608-9200 is hard to beat. It just does the perfect balance of midrange for my ears. Its very fussy with xover on the HP slope, but worth the fuss when you hear how holographic it can sound with a smaller midbass crossed around 800 hz 2nd order.
The Morel CAM558 or MDM55 is also a contender crossed just shy of 800 to 900 hz. Its flat to 4k and crosses very easily with a 1st order filter to a small 19mm dome.
Could be. Not sure, but its certainly used in alot of speaker designs from pro audio to cost no object high end. Used the right way, its quite a nice sounding mid, but its not what I'd call accurate. It sure gives great holographic imaging.
Here's info taken from a Stereophile review -
"Mid-Low (180–700Hz). "The Mid-Low horn uses the same manufacturing technology as the bass cabinet, bent plywood inner sides proper to Jadis." That is to say, proprietary to Jadis. "It is driven by the famous 6½" from Audax which is notable by its moving mass of only 9.2 grams. It fits perfectly for this use, the efficiency reaching 30% (12 times more than with an isodynamic driver.)"
Here's info taken from a Stereophile review -
"Mid-Low (180–700Hz). "The Mid-Low horn uses the same manufacturing technology as the bass cabinet, bent plywood inner sides proper to Jadis." That is to say, proprietary to Jadis. "It is driven by the famous 6½" from Audax which is notable by its moving mass of only 9.2 grams. It fits perfectly for this use, the efficiency reaching 30% (12 times more than with an isodynamic driver.)"