This begs another question. The close relation of mono operation is azimuth setup. normally one test is cross-talk, which requires a good null of the signal (same requirement as mono). So a well matched front end with electrical summing before RIAA would have a major AND minor use. Or am I over thinking it again?
Coil azimuth sets the theoretical limit for non-ideal pure vertical stylus motion +/- 90 deg, which is worth pursuing for mono playback, but not sweating it IMO. Because non-ideal stylus motion at +/- 45 deg has theoretical rejection of only -6dB anyway when you think about it...…...
So my opinion is 'yes' coil azimuth is worth optimising without going bonkers, for a stereo cartridge wired for mono. And conicals/sphericals are far more tolerant of azimuth error at the pointy end anyway, in terms of stylus-groove rake.
And yes, well matched electrical summing in the preamp is a good solution. Though maybe its my expectation bias, but I still prefer series wired cartridges.
LD
Need to think on that as was only considering getting the max null for vertical movement. Pinch effect in mono was not something I had thought about.
Pinch effect applies equally to mono and squeezes the stylus upward. Contrary to common wisdom it happens at the zero crossing of the groove shape, not at the curve. So it's dependent on instantaneous level of programme material and the linear velocity ie where it is on the record. Only related to frequency by RIAA - not many people know that...………..
But the main upward motion cause is noise related, particularly crackle-pop noise. Which can be in pretty much any allowable vector from +/- 45 deg, and seems to be mostly vertical. Which is why wiring the cart for mono or proper electronic cancellation produces a significant effect, far more than the -6dB minimum at pure 45 deg motion.
LD
But the main upward motion cause is noise related, particularly crackle-pop noise. Which can be in pretty much any allowable vector from +/- 45 deg, and seems to be mostly vertical. Which is why wiring the cart for mono or proper electronic cancellation produces a significant effect, far more than the -6dB minimum at pure 45 deg motion.
LD
I have to now ask the dumb question then. How much more does one gain from a modern mono cartridge (only one coil) that still has vertical compliance vs a series strapped stereo. I'm having a job visualizing things on this.
Not much, if any, benefit over wired stereo IMO, except every chance the suspension might be set up for a heavier tracking force I suppose and stylus/cantilever selected to suit.
Unwanted stylus motion can have any vector between +/- 45 deg, and only straight up 0 deg cancels perfectly ie has no lateral component to motion.
LD
Unwanted stylus motion can have any vector between +/- 45 deg, and only straight up 0 deg cancels perfectly ie has no lateral component to motion.
LD
And I have just found a thread that escaped the purge where you and the late Sreten were arguing this point. But it shows as Guest v Guest so you have to work out who is who 🙂. That has your simulation plots on it (this is from 2010) which have helped clarify that (although the results suprise me).
Now back to hunting as to why Ortofon and Hana use a shibata...
Now back to hunting as to why Ortofon and Hana use a shibata...
I think I have answered my own question here. And it's a business decision IMO
Hana only offer 2 stylii. Elliptical and shibata, so their mono is the SL with the coil former rotated 90 degrees
The top stylus in the ortofon ranges where they offer a mono is a shibata.
So my conclusion is nothing about superiority, just what they had. But I do believe/hope that ortofon do know enough not to sell something that doesn't work well/causes damage.
Now the shibata is 6umx70um (or .2x2.7 in mil) so much the same as most other line contacts bar the extreme vdh and Gyger profiles. So it's worth doing some testing to see if there are damage or base clearance issues. My current thinking (which may be wrong) is that low vertical compliance is possibly more important than fancy pants shape.
Edit: just went back and checked the papers by the late Dr Weinz. His view was any stylus suitable for CD4 was suitable for mono.
Hana only offer 2 stylii. Elliptical and shibata, so their mono is the SL with the coil former rotated 90 degrees
The top stylus in the ortofon ranges where they offer a mono is a shibata.
So my conclusion is nothing about superiority, just what they had. But I do believe/hope that ortofon do know enough not to sell something that doesn't work well/causes damage.
Now the shibata is 6umx70um (or .2x2.7 in mil) so much the same as most other line contacts bar the extreme vdh and Gyger profiles. So it's worth doing some testing to see if there are damage or base clearance issues. My current thinking (which may be wrong) is that low vertical compliance is possibly more important than fancy pants shape.
Edit: just went back and checked the papers by the late Dr Weinz. His view was any stylus suitable for CD4 was suitable for mono.
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Dunno, 0.2mil minor radius seems pretty sharp to me, and much depends on VTF needed to hold it down. But looking at VTF specs they are not that light, but a stiff vertical suspension might well assist for mono. But it only comes good if that means a light VTF can be used.
As to whether or not shaving happens, the evidence is easy to obtain from how often stylus clogs or examining the dendritis that collects as a little fluff ball.
Tribology of stylus-groove contact holds the truth no doubt. But I've never seen anything that stands scrutiny written on it, or read informed comment from the modern era as to what goes on as the stylus interacts with the groove at relatively phenomenal speed. The nitty gritty.
Also I don't know if the shavings I've seen come from groove walls or groove base. But there's no sign of degradation audibly after repeat playback, so maybe its the base at least in the case I examined which was for a FG tracking at 1.4g.
LD
As to whether or not shaving happens, the evidence is easy to obtain from how often stylus clogs or examining the dendritis that collects as a little fluff ball.
Tribology of stylus-groove contact holds the truth no doubt. But I've never seen anything that stands scrutiny written on it, or read informed comment from the modern era as to what goes on as the stylus interacts with the groove at relatively phenomenal speed. The nitty gritty.
Also I don't know if the shavings I've seen come from groove walls or groove base. But there's no sign of degradation audibly after repeat playback, so maybe its the base at least in the case I examined which was for a FG tracking at 1.4g.
LD
Halcyon days. IIRC I heard that sreten was booted. So 'guest' must be taking on elite status by now😉 Hope it didn't upset him too much, he posted excellent stuff elsewhere too but has passed away subsequently of course. Much respect.
I wouldn't rely too much on my own stuff dating back to 2010 though, it was a work in progress and still is, and thinking has come on a long way since then. I was just a pup then...…
LD
My experience of playing monos with any fine stulus is that it is only really useful with records that are somewhat thrashed. Otherwise, the sound tends to be rather thin and nasal although clear enough. Conversely, I have found that the DL103 has all that could be desired when playing records up to the mid 60's (somewhat later with eastern European records and, curiously, RCA) but with later LPs all the problems which you read about online begin to appear. Ellipticals and line contacts really start to shine with 70's EMI and DG records etc. Online blogger Salvatore's insistent and, I believe, sincere position on early stereo pressings may be because he plays them with hyper-expensive modern cartridges designed, fundamentally, to play modern records. A fellow collector friend of mine who has a 6 figure Audio note system often comes round here when he wants to hear monos; he has discovered that his IO Ltd. cartridge is far from ideal for the job.
LD: Agree that testing should be easy and I have a duplicate mono Decca that can be risked. Worth trying to get to the bottom of this at least for one label and one period 🙂 .
I'd be very happy to conclude a nice nude spherical is the best at the end of this. But I would like to try and work out the conflicting data points on the way. I have all the bits for this, just time needed. Which is a happy problem 🙂
What is still not clear is the contact patch stuff. more envelopes needed on that as it is not obvious to me at the moment that conical at high VTF is good and line contact at high VTF is bad. Weinz certainly put a lot of research into wear as this was critical with the design of CD4 stylii albeit with hard vinyl. I need to read it again slowly.
I think your sims from 8 years ago still have validity, and no one else has stepped up to challenge it (or even thing about it, which is strange).
@Piano: no idea who Salvatore is but I am happy with the concept that there is no one stylus to rule them all. If nothing else justifies me having 2 turntables 🙂. The wet play rig will be a hard one to get past SWMBO though!
Aside: the 3 of us can't be more than 50 miles apart. We ought to try and arrange a beer sometime.
I'd be very happy to conclude a nice nude spherical is the best at the end of this. But I would like to try and work out the conflicting data points on the way. I have all the bits for this, just time needed. Which is a happy problem 🙂
What is still not clear is the contact patch stuff. more envelopes needed on that as it is not obvious to me at the moment that conical at high VTF is good and line contact at high VTF is bad. Weinz certainly put a lot of research into wear as this was critical with the design of CD4 stylii albeit with hard vinyl. I need to read it again slowly.
I think your sims from 8 years ago still have validity, and no one else has stepped up to challenge it (or even thing about it, which is strange).
@Piano: no idea who Salvatore is but I am happy with the concept that there is no one stylus to rule them all. If nothing else justifies me having 2 turntables 🙂. The wet play rig will be a hard one to get past SWMBO though!
Aside: the 3 of us can't be more than 50 miles apart. We ought to try and arrange a beer sometime.
By the way, you do know that Expert will sell you any diamond you like on a SC35C stylus assembly?
Yes. I have contacted them and have the price list. But before I mod that I have some ortofons to get fitted with nude stylii for testing (blame LD for that).
What I mean is that they sell the stylus assembly complete; it's not a matter of re-tipping your own styli.
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