Christer said:
Perhaps you can hear that X works? An explanation doesn't change that. There is no need to invoke belief unless you think hearing is not evidence. If you think hearing is never evidence, then we are beyond understanding each other. Similarly, if you think hearing is always evidence then we are beyond understanding each other.
Christer said:
Of course we are all believers! We all pick and choose what makes sense to us. Period.
Theists... hmm... I'll decline a response to that. Your suspicions are probably correct though...
With regards to the "charlatans" whilst I certainly fall into the cynical camp, and think that their products are no more than a normal item with an exorbitant price tag, they are after all filling a market......
Think about it. Normal sceptics like me will never buy their product, simply because I don't believe it will work, however there are people who will believe, and belief is a powerful thing. So if believer X buys the product and "hears" a major improvement in his sound system as a result, then good for him. The fact that it is more than likely psychoacoustic doesn't matter does it??? Why do we feel the need to point out that they are wrong?? Shouldn’t we be jealous that they have found a way to enjoy their system more, which for us is not possible????
The only likely people to get burnt are the ones who are not sure, they think maybe it is BS, but then again maybe there is something to it, and buy it and find it doesn't work.
There will always be those that believe and those that don't, and arguments about it. It has happened through history, and there are certainly many cases where the believers were ultimately proven correct (round earth anyone....)
I lean (heavily) towards the side of what has been proven, but still give a little latitude to that which hasn't 😉 but in cases where an individual is adamant that something works which I think is BS, I just keep my mouth shut (or subtly try and suggest some alternative possibilities) 🙂
I too haven't been around much of late, but nothing to do with the forum, just a shift away from DIYing for a while. My speaker project has stalled, need to get motivated, and get back into it.
Tony.
Think about it. Normal sceptics like me will never buy their product, simply because I don't believe it will work, however there are people who will believe, and belief is a powerful thing. So if believer X buys the product and "hears" a major improvement in his sound system as a result, then good for him. The fact that it is more than likely psychoacoustic doesn't matter does it??? Why do we feel the need to point out that they are wrong?? Shouldn’t we be jealous that they have found a way to enjoy their system more, which for us is not possible????
The only likely people to get burnt are the ones who are not sure, they think maybe it is BS, but then again maybe there is something to it, and buy it and find it doesn't work.
There will always be those that believe and those that don't, and arguments about it. It has happened through history, and there are certainly many cases where the believers were ultimately proven correct (round earth anyone....)
I lean (heavily) towards the side of what has been proven, but still give a little latitude to that which hasn't 😉 but in cases where an individual is adamant that something works which I think is BS, I just keep my mouth shut (or subtly try and suggest some alternative possibilities) 🙂
I too haven't been around much of late, but nothing to do with the forum, just a shift away from DIYing for a while. My speaker project has stalled, need to get motivated, and get back into it.
Tony.
I am good with all that until someone else asks in earnest and is barraged with the BS.
Please remember though, it was the "believers" that maintained the earth was flat. In fact, it was the believers that jailed Copernicus and Galileo for saying otherwise...
🙂
Please remember though, it was the "believers" that maintained the earth was flat. In fact, it was the believers that jailed Copernicus and Galileo for saying otherwise...
🙂
poobah said:
Is there a reason to call them anything? What does it have to do with DIY? All that counts are ideas. If you're worried a newbie might drop a month's pay on a new IEC cord for the Sony I suggest telling them how to DIY one. Teach them electrical wiring basics, shielding, interwinding capacitances, inductance per foot of 3-wire twisted sheathed and let them find out if (or likely if not) it was worth the effort.
That's all off topic though and I've yet to see anyone hawking $1500 power cords here. What I'm recommending is attack the idea: good lad. Attack the person (individually or as a group): Texas or worse. Thirty years into it I find there are way too many unknowns in this hobby to claim with absolute certainty all answers can be found in the book (religious imagary intentional) and keep an open mind to avenues that haven't been clearly closed. For many here it's the other way, claiming everything unproven as disproven and considering it grounds for ridicule.
poobah said:
Ahhh perspective is a wonderful thing 😉 I would say that before the proof of the world not being flat was irrefutable, then those that said it was round were the radical ones 😉 afterall you can see with your own eyes that the world is flat.... hmmmm I get your point in the current discussion I chose a woefully bad example 😉
I guess the point I was trying to make is that challenging conventional wisdom, is not always a bad thing, just because something doesn't seem to wash, doesn't mean it can't be.... of course I'd say that MOST of the time it is nothing more than snake oil, but maybe just maybe some things actually have something to them.
Outright con men I don't have time for, people who passionately believe in X and are not out to dud people out of their money, are quite entitled to their beliefs IMO 🙂
Tony.
jeff mai said:
That someone claims to hear a difference is no evidence of any real difference until repeated in some valid controlled experiment. Psychological effects of various kinds are very real and nobody is immune to that, although some people in audio insist they are superhuman in this respect. Some of them have even been ridiculing me and others for not accepting that they are immune to it.
I have myself undertaken listening therapy sessions which has made me aware of how easily the brain changes its interpretation of what we hear and how the filter functions in the brain changes all the time depending on different factors.
However, if you are only talking about perceived differences, not real physical differences, then it is an altoghether different matter.
rdf said:
I agree. It is definitely the ideas and claims that should be challenged and discussed, not the person. The problem is that some people take it very very personal when you do not unreservedly trust them, and then they easily make inte a discussion about the person themselves.
Although I am a scientist by training, I do usually not entiirely dismiss claims, however improbable they might seem, although I usually remain very very sceptic. I agree with you there may still be things we don't know and can't explain with todays theories. It is also not uncommon that people dismiss things by applying simplified theory where the prerequisites for that simplified theory are not satisfied. We have also seen a number of examples of seemingly improbable claims which have turned out to be explainable by existing theory when somebody with deep knowledge of the topic jumps in and explains why it may actually be true.
You are all gentlemen and scholars,
Wintermute, I thought your example was excellent in that it highlights the paradox... what constitutes conventional wisdom. Much has happened in the last 500 years... and I would hope that the scientific method (and Darwin) prevails more often.
rdf, you're right about there not being too many of those "people" here on this forum. Market, or lack thereof, being an obvious reason. But knowing they would get tarred and feathered here is a nice deterent. Keep in mind, I refer only to those who won't (read can't) offer proof.
Anybody selling anything holds themselves up for scrutiny... that's just reality. Even if it is only an idea that they are selling. $30 audiophile fuses came up recently... these people bring it on themselves and deserve every bit of abuse they get. I think this place is fairly open-minded. I appreciate the sarcasm and veiled insults as long as they don't get in the way... some of it's well written and downright funny.
🙂
Wintermute, I thought your example was excellent in that it highlights the paradox... what constitutes conventional wisdom. Much has happened in the last 500 years... and I would hope that the scientific method (and Darwin) prevails more often.
rdf, you're right about there not being too many of those "people" here on this forum. Market, or lack thereof, being an obvious reason. But knowing they would get tarred and feathered here is a nice deterent. Keep in mind, I refer only to those who won't (read can't) offer proof.
Anybody selling anything holds themselves up for scrutiny... that's just reality. Even if it is only an idea that they are selling. $30 audiophile fuses came up recently... these people bring it on themselves and deserve every bit of abuse they get. I think this place is fairly open-minded. I appreciate the sarcasm and veiled insults as long as they don't get in the way... some of it's well written and downright funny.
🙂
poobah said:
If your actions are consistent on and off this forum, you could not possibly have any friends or family (that you still speak to) who are theists.
My suspicion is that this is not the case and that you are capable of controlling what you say when it suits you. Is this correct?
What I'm getting at is that we are all capable and expected to behave in a civil manner in other circumstances. People are usually very careful not to insult friends and family by association, but it's ROUTINELY done here. These subtle insults are rarely the subject of moderation if the moderator agrees with the posters general point of view.
Being right does not excuse one from being courteous.
Good points,
I do indeed have few friends that fit that description... some.
I generally do my best to give them a break as these beliefs are generally infused well before the age of indepedent reason.
"When it suits me"... by all means. It tends to infuriate people and they are generally incapable of adopting a new view... pointless at best.
Guilt by association is perhaps an unfortunate thing; I don't always consider myself obligated to ponder the plight of the "associates" before stating an opinion... especially on an audio forum. Haven't you ever listened to a lengthy "politically correct" load of garbage, and then after 20 mintues, you find yourself wanting to blast out, "Just what are you trying to say?".
🙂
I do indeed have few friends that fit that description... some.
I generally do my best to give them a break as these beliefs are generally infused well before the age of indepedent reason.
"When it suits me"... by all means. It tends to infuriate people and they are generally incapable of adopting a new view... pointless at best.
perhaps why it is called DIYaudio as opposed to DIYnonsense. The mantra stands... show me your data.
Guilt by association is perhaps an unfortunate thing; I don't always consider myself obligated to ponder the plight of the "associates" before stating an opinion... especially on an audio forum. Haven't you ever listened to a lengthy "politically correct" load of garbage, and then after 20 mintues, you find yourself wanting to blast out, "Just what are you trying to say?".
🙂
Allow me to contribute, from a point of having to deal with such on a daily basis.
Poobah:
I don't have to show you ANY data..and will frequently REFUSE to do so. This can lead to a situation where I will be confused with charlatans.
Point being, is if I am in a position where the line of thought and point of understanding itself, IS the actual point that leads to or is essentially the point that ends up being the 'marketable' item or point (surrounding the creation or exitence of a given device or technique).....then refusal to do so..even to the anger and frustration of others..is the ONLY way to survive in a given market--then so be it. Why should I give you keys to my success or open the door to my working business model, so others can horn in on my business, understandings, and ideas..maybe even take my ideas to places I have not personally taken them yet..and take away potential profits??? Why? The answer is an easy and flat ---NO.
Ie, too bad for you. 🙂
If you don't like it, then go elsewhere, pour derision on me, whatever...do what yah gotta do. 😛 For I, due to the circumstances involved... am forced to remain silent. Some days I take it well, some days I don't. This is one of the essential reasons I'm off the AVSforum. I say something that is obvious, with a bit of reason and thought put into a given situation and it erupts into a full bore multiple direction and person (and personal) attack. I get tired of people exercising their desire for reason that eases their confusion...that fits their particular polarized mental keys..by arguing things to the death. They have to begin again on the origninal point of reason, many times. Fcuk off, I tell them. Get a life. They don't take it very well. 😛 It's not that I'm impatient, but the situation of not being able to explain myself, or their inability to attempt the logical point of analysis..wherever it may lead, or more specifically..originate from.
As a friend takes pains to point out to me every now and then, "You are an idiot to get involved in an internet arguement..and if you win that arguement, it does not take away from the fact that you are still an idiot."
Poobah:
I don't have to show you ANY data..and will frequently REFUSE to do so. This can lead to a situation where I will be confused with charlatans.
Point being, is if I am in a position where the line of thought and point of understanding itself, IS the actual point that leads to or is essentially the point that ends up being the 'marketable' item or point (surrounding the creation or exitence of a given device or technique).....then refusal to do so..even to the anger and frustration of others..is the ONLY way to survive in a given market--then so be it. Why should I give you keys to my success or open the door to my working business model, so others can horn in on my business, understandings, and ideas..maybe even take my ideas to places I have not personally taken them yet..and take away potential profits??? Why? The answer is an easy and flat ---NO.
Ie, too bad for you. 🙂
If you don't like it, then go elsewhere, pour derision on me, whatever...do what yah gotta do. 😛 For I, due to the circumstances involved... am forced to remain silent. Some days I take it well, some days I don't. This is one of the essential reasons I'm off the AVSforum. I say something that is obvious, with a bit of reason and thought put into a given situation and it erupts into a full bore multiple direction and person (and personal) attack. I get tired of people exercising their desire for reason that eases their confusion...that fits their particular polarized mental keys..by arguing things to the death. They have to begin again on the origninal point of reason, many times. Fcuk off, I tell them. Get a life. They don't take it very well. 😛 It's not that I'm impatient, but the situation of not being able to explain myself, or their inability to attempt the logical point of analysis..wherever it may lead, or more specifically..originate from.
As a friend takes pains to point out to me every now and then, "You are an idiot to get involved in an internet arguement..and if you win that arguement, it does not take away from the fact that you are still an idiot."
KBK,
I totally agree with you. There is a distintinction that can be made, it is usually possible to demonstrate performance without divulging how that performance was attained.
I don't give up IP, and I have limited tolerance for those that are always trying to beg, borrow, or steal it.
😉
I totally agree with you. There is a distintinction that can be made, it is usually possible to demonstrate performance without divulging how that performance was attained.
I don't give up IP, and I have limited tolerance for those that are always trying to beg, borrow, or steal it.
😉
Christer said:
I've never heard of anyone choosing every aspect of their gear by proper scientific experiment. By that I mean that the experiment might be accepted when written up as an article for the JAES. An experiment with one test or one test subject (or 5 or 10) is no proper experiment! Also, the experimenter couldn't participate in the tests. Who among us has a group of a few hundred other people choose their gear for them?
No - it works like this: we all read, we all listen, and we all DECIDE what makes sense to us. Every one of us. We may read different things and interpret differently, hear differently, and decide differently, but we all do it this way.
pretty much like when i sold mark levinson gear. some customers,
liked it some didn't. and at the time it was the best on the market.
what sounds good to some may not sound good to others.
the sound and whats put down on paper.
😉
liked it some didn't. and at the time it was the best on the market.
what sounds good to some may not sound good to others.
the sound and whats put down on paper.
😉
jeff mai said:
Sure, but there is a great difference between convincing yourself that a certain gear sounds good to you and trying to convince others that this is an undisputable truth also for others. i have said it before, and I say it again. There are some people who insist that X sounds superior to anything else and at the same time there are others that insist that Y sounds better than anything else. That is fine as long as they state it as their own subjective opinion, but it is obvious that they cannot both be right. So when they both start insisting that they hold the one and only universal truth and feel personally insulted when somebody does not agree with them, then they do have a personal problem in my opinion, and they do more harm than good to the community. I don't mind people sharing their opinion and experience on certain brands of resistors or cables, as long as they don't try to convince others that it must be right for them too.
Now, this actually dors go back to what I said previously about psychology, filter functions in the brain etc. We all arrive at our own personal preferences, which are often probably based more on these psychological factors than actual differences in the equipment (not saying there are no such differences). That's fine with me, that's human. Sometimes it is just placebo, but as the doctors say, even placebo is fine if it works.
Kicking a dead horse
Hi,
Christer it seems like it took you awhile to notice the absence of these few members, in fact as you said yourself, you only noticed when one of them emailed you.
I trust said email was an invitation to an alternative (term used very loosely) forum? If it was in fact so, and you chose to leave that information out of your aired concerns here, things take on a different light.
I make this assumption because I'd once received a similar email, and I am aware they encourage others to do the same to help their cause.
Not at all that I'm accusing you of anything, I guess my point here is just watch who you stick your neck out for. It isn't at all uncommon for the abuser to act like a victim once their true nature has been uncovered. "But I didn't do anything wrong, but they never told me, but I didn't know", and blame everyone else for their own actions. I think maybe this is the kind of thing you're seeing here.
Personally I'm aware of who one of two of these members are and I can honestly say, no big loss! It was near painful to see them hinting at their greater knowledge, purchasable via their product line, while offering no other assistance.
I'm usually the first to want to take on "authority" when they've overstepped their boundaries or abused their powers, all I can say here is, excellent work, good job.
Cheers,
Chris
Hi,
Christer it seems like it took you awhile to notice the absence of these few members, in fact as you said yourself, you only noticed when one of them emailed you.
I trust said email was an invitation to an alternative (term used very loosely) forum? If it was in fact so, and you chose to leave that information out of your aired concerns here, things take on a different light.
I make this assumption because I'd once received a similar email, and I am aware they encourage others to do the same to help their cause.
Not at all that I'm accusing you of anything, I guess my point here is just watch who you stick your neck out for. It isn't at all uncommon for the abuser to act like a victim once their true nature has been uncovered. "But I didn't do anything wrong, but they never told me, but I didn't know", and blame everyone else for their own actions. I think maybe this is the kind of thing you're seeing here.
Personally I'm aware of who one of two of these members are and I can honestly say, no big loss! It was near painful to see them hinting at their greater knowledge, purchasable via their product line, while offering no other assistance.
I'm usually the first to want to take on "authority" when they've overstepped their boundaries or abused their powers, all I can say here is, excellent work, good job.
Cheers,
Chris
Chris,
There was in fact no suggestion in the emails that i join the other forum, although there might perhaps have been an implicit hope that I would come to that decision myself.
However (I am not sure whether I should even tell this) I did tonight receive a mail from the moderators of this forum providing me with further information and proof that has made me realize that things are indeed a bit different than it seemed both from what has been posted on this forum (the mods try to be tactful) and from what was in the email conversation I had with the banned member, so I see no reason to pursue the matter any further. My only concern now is that not other memebers leave this forum in some kind of symphaty with those who were banned. The number of banned members were, by the way, actually much fewer than I had feared, so the loss is not so big. For obvious reasons I cannot disclose what the mods told me in confidence.
There was in fact no suggestion in the emails that i join the other forum, although there might perhaps have been an implicit hope that I would come to that decision myself.
However (I am not sure whether I should even tell this) I did tonight receive a mail from the moderators of this forum providing me with further information and proof that has made me realize that things are indeed a bit different than it seemed both from what has been posted on this forum (the mods try to be tactful) and from what was in the email conversation I had with the banned member, so I see no reason to pursue the matter any further. My only concern now is that not other memebers leave this forum in some kind of symphaty with those who were banned. The number of banned members were, by the way, actually much fewer than I had feared, so the loss is not so big. For obvious reasons I cannot disclose what the mods told me in confidence.
Hi Christer,
Don't worry about sharing the info, I've no need to see it.
I applaud the good intentions behind your efforts, and the airing of your new found conclusion, I find great respect for you in that.
I think we all share the best interest of this forum at heart.
Best Regards,
Chris
Don't worry about sharing the info, I've no need to see it.
I applaud the good intentions behind your efforts, and the airing of your new found conclusion, I find great respect for you in that.
I think we all share the best interest of this forum at heart.
Best Regards,
Chris
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