But then the business shills try to spread FUD with phony claims like your hearing isn't good enough or similar pollution.
Well you can always tell them that if our hearing isn't good enough, why improve further by measurements;-)
Hi Folks,
Cheers for the interesting discussion.
As both a Saxophone player and an electronics engineer, perception of sound is of great interest to me.
Back in the earlies, my final year Electronics project was (as my project supervisor, Tony Nixon said) "knitting fog". The project was design and build four different amplifier circuits (two valve, one transistor, one op-amp), measure their individual performance and play them to customers at the local hi-fi shop who would fill in a questionairre about how each amplifier sounded and then compare the human perception results with the measured results. Thereby trying to find a way of relating human perception of sound to measured results of testing.
Whilst it got me an engineering degree but no further sponsorship. A masters would have been good but hey ho.
By asking questions and comparing human responses with measured results may be a way of understanding why something has a sound ? Or a particular sound ?
Just an attempt to remove sales ******** from product performance ?
Neil xx.
Cheers for the interesting discussion.
As both a Saxophone player and an electronics engineer, perception of sound is of great interest to me.
Back in the earlies, my final year Electronics project was (as my project supervisor, Tony Nixon said) "knitting fog". The project was design and build four different amplifier circuits (two valve, one transistor, one op-amp), measure their individual performance and play them to customers at the local hi-fi shop who would fill in a questionairre about how each amplifier sounded and then compare the human perception results with the measured results. Thereby trying to find a way of relating human perception of sound to measured results of testing.
Whilst it got me an engineering degree but no further sponsorship. A masters would have been good but hey ho.
By asking questions and comparing human responses with measured results may be a way of understanding why something has a sound ? Or a particular sound ?
Just an attempt to remove sales ******** from product performance ?
Neil xx.
"Unless your ear<>brain tunes, they often sound like" I suppose the same could be said for just about any speaker characteristic. "Rising response", etc.
I have to wonder how much processing effort is made by the brain to compensate for what it "should" sound like, er, naturally. Could this "effort" itself be perceptible? That is, if you de-characterize a speaker (i.e. remove the rising response characteristic using ASP or DSP) does this relieve your brain from having to do so?
Or does it not matter a bit - just wait for your brain to get around to it and you wont feel a thing -
It doesnt need to compensate as much when listening to real sounds in the real world - except as discussed in another thread, for deterioration of the ear due to age. Could this be linked to my personal perception that I simply dont find loud music pleasant anymore? How does SPL effect the brain's processing of reproduced music? More little inner ear hair nerve firings to deal with? There seems to be a definite sweet spot between not enough and too much - for me - regarding SPL.
Which may have little to do with the SPL the original recording was intended to be played back at.
A guitarist once told me a "sonic maximizer" worked by splitting the sound into bands and then flipping the phase of every other band, which tricks the ear into accepting higher SPLs without complaint. Perhaps linear phase or FR speakers cant go as loud as their multi way cousins, in part due to such an effect. I cant wrap my head around how sound where "phase is a mess" could be easier for the brain to process, resulting in less stress to listen to.
I have to wonder how much processing effort is made by the brain to compensate for what it "should" sound like, er, naturally. Could this "effort" itself be perceptible? That is, if you de-characterize a speaker (i.e. remove the rising response characteristic using ASP or DSP) does this relieve your brain from having to do so?
Or does it not matter a bit - just wait for your brain to get around to it and you wont feel a thing -
It doesnt need to compensate as much when listening to real sounds in the real world - except as discussed in another thread, for deterioration of the ear due to age. Could this be linked to my personal perception that I simply dont find loud music pleasant anymore? How does SPL effect the brain's processing of reproduced music? More little inner ear hair nerve firings to deal with? There seems to be a definite sweet spot between not enough and too much - for me - regarding SPL.
Which may have little to do with the SPL the original recording was intended to be played back at.
A guitarist once told me a "sonic maximizer" worked by splitting the sound into bands and then flipping the phase of every other band, which tricks the ear into accepting higher SPLs without complaint. Perhaps linear phase or FR speakers cant go as loud as their multi way cousins, in part due to such an effect. I cant wrap my head around how sound where "phase is a mess" could be easier for the brain to process, resulting in less stress to listen to.
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Hey Joe,
Does it matter, really ? Don't we all just like to listen to the music we like ? However we choose to perceive it ?
Weither it's loud Rock'n'Roll or subtle sparrow chat, we thankfully have different tastes, preferences &c.
Isn't that why this forum is so entertaining ?
All the best,
Neil xx.
Does it matter, really ? Don't we all just like to listen to the music we like ? However we choose to perceive it ?
Weither it's loud Rock'n'Roll or subtle sparrow chat, we thankfully have different tastes, preferences &c.
Isn't that why this forum is so entertaining ?
All the best,
Neil xx.
Hi Neil,
I think SPL capability matters, along with dynamic range capability. I can understand designing a system differently if all one listens to is loud, compressed pop music versus other forms.
Perhaps it's a waste of resources to design a "universal" system if a users universe includes only a single galaxy. Signal to noise ratio for example - who cares if "signal" is for all intents and purposes "on continuously" during the whole piece? You'll never hear the noise and striving electronically for a "darker background" is irrelevant under such conditions, if the source material never goes quiet.
That experiment must have been quite interesting to work through, on your way to an EE degree!
I think SPL capability matters, along with dynamic range capability. I can understand designing a system differently if all one listens to is loud, compressed pop music versus other forms.
Perhaps it's a waste of resources to design a "universal" system if a users universe includes only a single galaxy. Signal to noise ratio for example - who cares if "signal" is for all intents and purposes "on continuously" during the whole piece? You'll never hear the noise and striving electronically for a "darker background" is irrelevant under such conditions, if the source material never goes quiet.
That experiment must have been quite interesting to work through, on your way to an EE degree!
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I’m with you Joe,
Enquiring minds want to know! When I’m dialing in a change to my system I always aim for the place where my brain no longer has to process the sound, in other words basically what you mentioned a couple posts ago.....timing and phase relationships throughout the whole system can be aligned to the point where your totally free.....one with the music!
I don’t really know the technical details from the last setup as the ypao dsp I was using is quite vague in details (it does work well though) I’ve invested in a minidsp shd with a Mac mini to run the Dirac. Hopefully I’ll be able to follow the changes a bit easier.
I’m also not sure but I would imagine the settings would be different person to person even in the same room/system but I do think everyone is susceptible to telling the difference if they ever heard it.
Problem is, getting there seems to contradict the status quo.
Enquiring minds want to know! When I’m dialing in a change to my system I always aim for the place where my brain no longer has to process the sound, in other words basically what you mentioned a couple posts ago.....timing and phase relationships throughout the whole system can be aligned to the point where your totally free.....one with the music!
I don’t really know the technical details from the last setup as the ypao dsp I was using is quite vague in details (it does work well though) I’ve invested in a minidsp shd with a Mac mini to run the Dirac. Hopefully I’ll be able to follow the changes a bit easier.
I’m also not sure but I would imagine the settings would be different person to person even in the same room/system but I do think everyone is susceptible to telling the difference if they ever heard it.
Problem is, getting there seems to contradict the status quo.
I don’t think the brain alters the sounds frequency response or anything like that. It simply informs you that’s it sounds right.
I remember a comment from Bob Cordell where he said he went to listen to a SET at a show and came away ‘wondering what all the fuss was about’.
So, no doubt what’s good for one person is not good for another.
I remember a comment from Bob Cordell where he said he went to listen to a SET at a show and came away ‘wondering what all the fuss was about’.
So, no doubt what’s good for one person is not good for another.
Then their or their friend's audio business would suffer.
Must've been his hearing or the components used were not revealing enough.
My wife is not audio enthusiast. When I built better amplifier, in a year or two years latter, she complaint when she hear music in public like a cafe. I think she is compared it with she usually hear at home. Usually, she didn't care about audio quality.
I think listening and perception of the sound can be change with training or experiences.
I think listening and perception of the sound can be change with training or experiences.
This is why the advice is to use real instruments, or at least know them well enough, to compare sound quality to. If not, the reference is out the door and it's hard to tell if it's a bad amp somewhere else, or the too easy on the ears amp at home. Not to say I don't trust your design skills or acute hearing, but without a real reference, perception is all one has.
Of course, I ask audio community to compare my amplifier with other brand. Many amplifier compared. I have many friends from sound engineer, speaker designer, car audio contest judge, etc. I always hear their opinion to improve my designing skill.
I don't know Harmoko.
Some professional in audio joint in Facebook's group called "Rumah Audio Indonesia" or RAI. I know some of them.
I am a newbie in audio amplifier designer. I was worked as video engineer at Japan company that produce video tape recorder. Now, I am working as embedded engineer.
You can find my modification and my design in this forum.
I share my design in local audio community. Many Indonesia people is not rich, so I like to design an audio amplifier that cheap enough but has optimal quality. Some my design is private.
I found, many people have different taste. I want to know if their taste can be reflected in measurement.
Some professional in audio joint in Facebook's group called "Rumah Audio Indonesia" or RAI. I know some of them.
I am a newbie in audio amplifier designer. I was worked as video engineer at Japan company that produce video tape recorder. Now, I am working as embedded engineer.
You can find my modification and my design in this forum.
I share my design in local audio community. Many Indonesia people is not rich, so I like to design an audio amplifier that cheap enough but has optimal quality. Some my design is private.
I found, many people have different taste. I want to know if their taste can be reflected in measurement.
My design: "Pelatuk amplifier"
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/338815-anistardi-peletuk-4.html#post5835050
A member compared my modification of FX8 amplifier:
Virtual Audition of Very Simple Quasi MOSFET Amp
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/338815-anistardi-peletuk-4.html#post5835050
A member compared my modification of FX8 amplifier:
Virtual Audition of Very Simple Quasi MOSFET Amp
I'm an old fashioned guy, I never Sim, but it sure looks nice Bimo!
Fwiw, if low harmonic distortion is the goal, why not hook it up to a real loudspeaker with all it's back emf , irregular impedance etc to see what happens?
If it's really transparent I guess that's the way to find out. Doing it that way and comparing it with e.g. another amp with a completely different topology, I'm sure thd all of a sudden isn't the big discriminator of perception and it should explain much better why measurements don't always correspond (or even contradict) this.
Imho, these things, amp and speaker, should be seen as one.
Fwiw, if low harmonic distortion is the goal, why not hook it up to a real loudspeaker with all it's back emf , irregular impedance etc to see what happens?
If it's really transparent I guess that's the way to find out. Doing it that way and comparing it with e.g. another amp with a completely different topology, I'm sure thd all of a sudden isn't the big discriminator of perception and it should explain much better why measurements don't always correspond (or even contradict) this.
Imho, these things, amp and speaker, should be seen as one.
Of course, not only low harmonic distortion is my goal. My Pelatuk amplifier have much higher distortion but dominant H2 in all audio frequency. It is just for fun to know how it sound.
As I wrote before, too many measurement to describe audio quality. THD, IMD, S/N ratio, harmonic profile of distortion, damping factor, slew rate, etc.
I see your goal is acoustic output of the system like R.N. Marsh. How do you measure it?
I mostly use Clio to measure acoustically, but at home I use a DIY device, Clio is easier but can be more restricted because it doesn't let you change the measurement software.
I enjoy horn speakers, so directivity/polars etc are rather known in that range, so most attention nowadays goes to the frequency range below that, trying to get as much energy in the direction of the listener and less to cause trouble via walls etc. The only way to do that is big horns as well as building them as Unity/MEH style.
With Acourate and HQPlayer the learning curve is pretty steep, but it really pays out. Depending on the room itself, I adjust the room curve so as to achieve a certain balance. That last part is purely done by ear, but I tend to keep them pretty flat with horn speakers.
I enjoy horn speakers, so directivity/polars etc are rather known in that range, so most attention nowadays goes to the frequency range below that, trying to get as much energy in the direction of the listener and less to cause trouble via walls etc. The only way to do that is big horns as well as building them as Unity/MEH style.
With Acourate and HQPlayer the learning curve is pretty steep, but it really pays out. Depending on the room itself, I adjust the room curve so as to achieve a certain balance. That last part is purely done by ear, but I tend to keep them pretty flat with horn speakers.
Did you try some amplifiers for your speaker? If you did, are they are sound different or same? Why?
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