Matt, did you clean the waveguide before painting? There might be remains of release agent. I used normal denatured alcohol.
Best, Markus
Best, Markus
yes I did. I used 409, denatured alcohol, mineral spirits, and acetone. I can't imagine there is still mold release, but maybe I didn't use enough cleaner, or didn't scrub hard enough. I initially used the 409 followed by mineral spirits. When the primer came off this time I used denatured alcohol and primed. When that came off I tried acetone as that's what Dr. Geddes said he used, and reprimed with the black spray on primer from Rust-o-leum. None of this has stuck. It doesn't just flake off, I applied tape to mask it off when spraying the glue, and the removal of tape removed the paint, clean down to the waveguide. It only happened on one of them, so maybe that one wasn't repainted.
With three speakers all at different stages at different times and extreme cold outside, it was hard for me to keep track of what I did to which speaker when. I know plastic is notoriously hard to paint and glue, so I wasn't sure if maybe it was just that.
With three speakers all at different stages at different times and extreme cold outside, it was hard for me to keep track of what I did to which speaker when. I know plastic is notoriously hard to paint and glue, so I wasn't sure if maybe it was just that.
Good cleaning is essential, but you may have to rough the surface with some 600 grit wet paper. I've seldom had a problem, and never anymore.
I've not had a problem with the poly, its not like the gel coat of fiberglass, which has wax in it that continues to leach out. Fiberglass can be a real problem to paint.
I've not had a problem with the poly, its not like the gel coat of fiberglass, which has wax in it that continues to leach out. Fiberglass can be a real problem to paint.
Matt, I know you were looking for less toxic solutions, but for future reference, Rustoleum makes a plastic primer that supposedly allows any type of paint to adhere properly to a plastic substrate. I haven't tried it myself. Krylon Fusion does work quite well on plastic, but I don't think it would be suitable for the MDF parts.
Rustoleum Plastic Primer
As for removing mold release, or any other contaminants, Prep-Sol is a good substance. It's used to remove contaminants prior to auto painting. It's especially good for removing silicone (found in many polishes and waxes) which can ruin the finish process. I use it before I finish projects. If my reading is correct, some mold release uses silicone, so...
Were it my project, I'd wipe the waveguide down well with Prep-Sol or a suitable alternative first to remove any residue. Then, sand, tack cloth, and wipe down a final time before painting or priming. It's important to wear gloves and have ventilation with this stuff. Petroleum distillates are toxic, but they get the job done quick, and with proper care are safe.
Rustoleum Plastic Primer
As for removing mold release, or any other contaminants, Prep-Sol is a good substance. It's used to remove contaminants prior to auto painting. It's especially good for removing silicone (found in many polishes and waxes) which can ruin the finish process. I use it before I finish projects. If my reading is correct, some mold release uses silicone, so...
Were it my project, I'd wipe the waveguide down well with Prep-Sol or a suitable alternative first to remove any residue. Then, sand, tack cloth, and wipe down a final time before painting or priming. It's important to wear gloves and have ventilation with this stuff. Petroleum distillates are toxic, but they get the job done quick, and with proper care are safe.
"The other is that I simply don't have cables long enough to move the console, and the area where I am considering moving it doesn't have enough outlets."
Cables are cheap, just use a power strip or three.
I wouldn't worry about circuit capacity; a circuit breaker can be loaded to several times its rated current for seconds before tripping.
I run my entire system on a single 15 A circuit and have never tripped the breaker in 10 years, even when clipping a 1200 W sub amp.
It includes a hot running 7 ch receiver, half a dozen source components, the sub amp, a 2000 W Buttkicker amp, and used to have a large RPTV pulling a couple hundred W, and never a problem.
Cables are cheap, just use a power strip or three.
I wouldn't worry about circuit capacity; a circuit breaker can be loaded to several times its rated current for seconds before tripping.
I run my entire system on a single 15 A circuit and have never tripped the breaker in 10 years, even when clipping a 1200 W sub amp.
It includes a hot running 7 ch receiver, half a dozen source components, the sub amp, a 2000 W Buttkicker amp, and used to have a large RPTV pulling a couple hundred W, and never a problem.
I specifically avoid mold releases with silicone, for just the reason mentioned. I have heard that Prep-Sol does work well. But I think that acetone and some fine sanding will work fine.
Hey Noah, my system quite regularly trips a 15 amp breaker if all is run on a single line. I have two lines in this room, one is a 20 amp line I had run, and the other is the rooms 15 amp line which also runs the outlets, lights, fan, etc. On that 15 amp line is my projector, 2 subwoofers, a buttkicker, and all the other mentioned items. Oh wait, no sorry, only one subwoofer. The other subwoofer is on the the second line, as well as my pre/pro, hd dvd, bluray, ps3, cable box, 200x2 Acurus amp, 280x3 diy amp heavily biased with a CLC power supply, record player, phono preamp, etc. Of course it's not like normal use causes instant tripping, that would be impossible. It's during transient peaks such as in loud parts of movies, though I've managed it with music too. The second line fixed everything for me, as you would expect. It may be less of an issue now that I have a more efficient set of speakers, but these speakers can still consume quite a bit of power.
When I said I didn't have wires long enough, It wasn't so much a problem I can't overcome, I can, it just takes time to rerun everything. Let's say I leave my amps near the speakers and run the rca cables, I need to then make up some interconnects around 15 feet or so. Thats my preference as I can run one subwoofer and all the amps on the 20 amp line, and the rest on the 15 amp line. I can set everythign up better, it's just going to take some time, and right now I have other important things going on. I also have the problem of other things in the way of where I want to move these components. Namely roughly 800 records in wooden stands, 1000 cd's, and maybe 200 movies or so. I'll work it out.
It sound's surprisingly good even with this compromised setup. The main speakers I've decided are really pretty good, I don't think they are all that bad in height, it's just the center that is really compromised. Again, even in the bad location, it seems to do a better job of disappearing than any center I have had before. It projects an image that doesn't sound like it's coming from well below the screen, its more like just above the center speaker, so at the lower portion of the screen.
I know people like to mount things on spikes, but because of the benefits in moving them around, and the shear weight of my subwoofers, I"m thinking of buying casters and putting them on these wheels so I can move them around more easily.
My next plan is to make a screen as Dr. Geddes has suggested. I will give a sheet a try, as a low thread count white cotton sheet costs a few dollars. If I'm not satisfied with this, I will consider the woven white nylon screen, which will cost roughly 100-150 dollars in the size I need. I have brackets holding my current screen that can place something the exact correct distance I need, 16" from the wall, which will make the experimenting easier.
When I said I didn't have wires long enough, It wasn't so much a problem I can't overcome, I can, it just takes time to rerun everything. Let's say I leave my amps near the speakers and run the rca cables, I need to then make up some interconnects around 15 feet or so. Thats my preference as I can run one subwoofer and all the amps on the 20 amp line, and the rest on the 15 amp line. I can set everythign up better, it's just going to take some time, and right now I have other important things going on. I also have the problem of other things in the way of where I want to move these components. Namely roughly 800 records in wooden stands, 1000 cd's, and maybe 200 movies or so. I'll work it out.
It sound's surprisingly good even with this compromised setup. The main speakers I've decided are really pretty good, I don't think they are all that bad in height, it's just the center that is really compromised. Again, even in the bad location, it seems to do a better job of disappearing than any center I have had before. It projects an image that doesn't sound like it's coming from well below the screen, its more like just above the center speaker, so at the lower portion of the screen.
I know people like to mount things on spikes, but because of the benefits in moving them around, and the shear weight of my subwoofers, I"m thinking of buying casters and putting them on these wheels so I can move them around more easily.
My next plan is to make a screen as Dr. Geddes has suggested. I will give a sheet a try, as a low thread count white cotton sheet costs a few dollars. If I'm not satisfied with this, I will consider the woven white nylon screen, which will cost roughly 100-150 dollars in the size I need. I have brackets holding my current screen that can place something the exact correct distance I need, 16" from the wall, which will make the experimenting easier.
Matt
Do you have a link on that screen material? Any sound transmission measurements? I'd love to upgrade the bed sheet if there was something better. I just haven't found anything yet.
Do you have a link on that screen material? Any sound transmission measurements? I'd love to upgrade the bed sheet if there was something better. I just haven't found anything yet.
Earl, have you looked at http://www.screenresearch.com/cpfabrics.php ? They do woven screens. Mine is WAY better than a microperf both in sound and picture. Hell of a lot more expensive than a bed sheet though!
John
John
Seymour AV
This is the screen I was referring to. They have measurements, but I don't trust them. I would want my own measurements.
If you get a sample and like it, let me know, because I know where they get the material they use from. It's nothing special or custom, it's just hard to order in small quantities. An entire roll is around 500 dollars retail I believe. It really is just a poly solar mesh, and the company that makes it actually says that if you want smaller quantities for HT use, to go to Seymour AV. I looked at buying it direct, but I couldn't save any money without buying an entire roll.
This is the screen I was referring to. They have measurements, but I don't trust them. I would want my own measurements.
If you get a sample and like it, let me know, because I know where they get the material they use from. It's nothing special or custom, it's just hard to order in small quantities. An entire roll is around 500 dollars retail I believe. It really is just a poly solar mesh, and the company that makes it actually says that if you want smaller quantities for HT use, to go to Seymour AV. I looked at buying it direct, but I couldn't save any money without buying an entire roll.
Matt
The post above you looks like some good stuff. I'm not likely to experiment with anythiing in the short term since I'm happy with what I have.
The post above you looks like some good stuff. I'm not likely to experiment with anythiing in the short term since I'm happy with what I have.
Scratch what I had here before, the Seymour AV is supposed to be the same as SMX, it was Screen Research who told me that. That Screen Research is supposed to be really good, and they have a black backed version that looks really interesting to me. The cost doesn't excite me though.
The black backing reduces the back light problem? That would be easily done with a second layer of a black bedsheet!! I might try that.
I bought my Screen Research screen about 3 years ago. It was the following one -
"C-FS-80-178-2W-B Supreme fixed screen (with a velour flocked frame) and with ClearPix2, our THX and ISF certified projection fabric + a black backing, which is a second black layer (also THX certified) preventing from light reflection coming from behind the screen (on a plasma screen or a window for instance) and improving the black contrast ratio."
They specify 80" but that's the width, so in reality 92" diagonal.
Cost was equivalent to about $2000. Similar to what I spent on the non-perforated Stewart screen before that... MUCH more than a bed sheet... or two.
It looks and sounds great but I obviously had much more money back then because I don't think I'd spend that on a screen today!
John
"C-FS-80-178-2W-B Supreme fixed screen (with a velour flocked frame) and with ClearPix2, our THX and ISF certified projection fabric + a black backing, which is a second black layer (also THX certified) preventing from light reflection coming from behind the screen (on a plasma screen or a window for instance) and improving the black contrast ratio."
They specify 80" but that's the width, so in reality 92" diagonal.
Cost was equivalent to about $2000. Similar to what I spent on the non-perforated Stewart screen before that... MUCH more than a bed sheet... or two.
It looks and sounds great but I obviously had much more money back then because I don't think I'd spend that on a screen today!
John
A common way of dealing with light leaking through the screen and reflecting back is to do just what you said Dr. Geddes, add an acoustically transparent sheet of black, such as a black bed sheet. The problem with this method is that it adds a second layer and thus more attenuation. You say the bed sheet is far more acoustically transparent, so maybe adding multiple layers won't be a big deal, but the production materials clearly show some signs of comb filtering and somewhat uneven response variation. The Screen Research is the only one I've seen whose measurements seem to indicate even attenuation, but I would want to see this for myself. Maybe I'm nuts, but if you add more layers of this, I would be worried it would begin to cumulatively add to the problem.
I think having a black backed material is interesting as it minimizes the losses and reduces the chances of cumulative uneven response variations caused by the material or additional comb filtering. Again, the screen research doesn't appear to show any comb filtering, the Seymour shows some.
The Seymour AV stuff is attractive because it's relatively cheap. It's 15 dollars a linear foot for the 96" material, plus 35 dollars to have it cut at an angle (to reduce moire). That's 140 dollars for a 100" screen. The Screen Research I believe is priced by the square foot, and is something like 30 dollars a square foot. That would put it at over a 1000 for the same size screen worth of material. It might be square meter it was priced at though, I just don't remember. I will send an email and find out.
I think having a black backed material is interesting as it minimizes the losses and reduces the chances of cumulative uneven response variations caused by the material or additional comb filtering. Again, the screen research doesn't appear to show any comb filtering, the Seymour shows some.
The Seymour AV stuff is attractive because it's relatively cheap. It's 15 dollars a linear foot for the 96" material, plus 35 dollars to have it cut at an angle (to reduce moire). That's 140 dollars for a 100" screen. The Screen Research I believe is priced by the square foot, and is something like 30 dollars a square foot. That would put it at over a 1000 for the same size screen worth of material. It might be square meter it was priced at though, I just don't remember. I will send an email and find out.
pjpoes said:
Well of course there is a cumulative effect, but the bed sheet is so acoustically transparent that I don't think it would be significant. The second layer could be an even more open weave as it is not being used as a reflective surface. Just have to find the right material.
Apparently SMX uses Phifer Sheer Weave and can be had at 1/3 the price, but you have to get a 50 yd roll.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=984481
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=984481
Yeah I didn't want to mention that until I had heard some interest. Anyway, here is a link to where I found that this is what SMX and Seymour AV use.
Phifer SheerWeave Style 4500 - Chalk
Phifer
problem is getting reasonable sized rolls. I mean, the smallest that place sells is 30 yards, and when you price it out per foot, it's pretty similar to the price direct from Seymour AV. With shipping it comes to 6.83 a foot. Direct from Seymour it's 8.99 a foot for the same material "precision cut". On a 100" screen, that's only 7 feet of material, or around 15 dollars difference total. Not really worthwhile.
Something I'm kind of interested in though is that, at least I've been told, the better material from Screen research is really basically the same sort of thing, a nylon woven solar shade material based on a standard oem product, but with a proprietary coating mixture. Someone even told me they believed it was sprayed on, and was basically screen paint. What if I took the material, stretched it, and sprayed it with black on the back, and the screen paint on the front, would I get increased gain and acoustical transparency? It would need to be sprayed pretty thin to avoid clogging those little pores.
I'm thinking of buying some of the material with a few feet extra to experiment with.
Phifer SheerWeave Style 4500 - Chalk
Phifer
problem is getting reasonable sized rolls. I mean, the smallest that place sells is 30 yards, and when you price it out per foot, it's pretty similar to the price direct from Seymour AV. With shipping it comes to 6.83 a foot. Direct from Seymour it's 8.99 a foot for the same material "precision cut". On a 100" screen, that's only 7 feet of material, or around 15 dollars difference total. Not really worthwhile.
Something I'm kind of interested in though is that, at least I've been told, the better material from Screen research is really basically the same sort of thing, a nylon woven solar shade material based on a standard oem product, but with a proprietary coating mixture. Someone even told me they believed it was sprayed on, and was basically screen paint. What if I took the material, stretched it, and sprayed it with black on the back, and the screen paint on the front, would I get increased gain and acoustical transparency? It would need to be sprayed pretty thin to avoid clogging those little pores.
I'm thinking of buying some of the material with a few feet extra to experiment with.
pjpoes said:
I'd think that any material prayed on would reduce the acoustic transparency. From what I can see I think I'll stick with the bed sheet.