Hey Guys,
This forum has helped me a lot in learning and building speakers. In the past, I did do couple of build using Mark Audio Pluvia 7 drivers as per below build thanks to Dave's design plans.
Bass reflex: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ma-pluvia-7-bass-reflex-bookshelf-speakers.354125/
And
MLTL: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fullrange-bipole-mltl-speaker-build.351281/
I did not keep the MLTL for long due to their size. but, I still have the bass reflex speaker and have quite enjoyed them over the time.
I am now looking at building another set of speakers, as the Pluvia 7s don't quite offer much in bass region, leaves me wanting more. In the past, I did use them with subwoofer, but now I am simplifying my setup and don't want to add subwoofer in the mix.
What are my options for a fullrange speaker build that offers bass down to 30-40hz region and still sounds good up top and in midband? Being in Australia, options of getting the speaker drivers are bit limited and importing can be costly. As such, I am keeping my options limited to what is currently available locally from darcher.com.au.
So far, her is the list of the drivers that are locally available.
Mark Audio Alpair 10p: http://www.darcher.com.au/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=95
Mark Audio Alpair 11ms: http://www.darcher.com.au/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=99
Mark Audio Alpair 12P: http://www.darcher.com.au/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=67
Before I go ahead and order couple of drivers, I just wanted to get the recommendation on which drivers to get and which design to build.
Here is what I am looking for.
For now, I am thinking of building Pencil design http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf with Alpair 10p, but I am open to other suggestions both in speaker driver and box design (apart from Furgal horns), but as said above, in Australia its bit limited. Will the bigger drivers be better alternatives?
This forum has helped me a lot in learning and building speakers. In the past, I did do couple of build using Mark Audio Pluvia 7 drivers as per below build thanks to Dave's design plans.
Bass reflex: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ma-pluvia-7-bass-reflex-bookshelf-speakers.354125/
And
MLTL: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fullrange-bipole-mltl-speaker-build.351281/
I did not keep the MLTL for long due to their size. but, I still have the bass reflex speaker and have quite enjoyed them over the time.
I am now looking at building another set of speakers, as the Pluvia 7s don't quite offer much in bass region, leaves me wanting more. In the past, I did use them with subwoofer, but now I am simplifying my setup and don't want to add subwoofer in the mix.
What are my options for a fullrange speaker build that offers bass down to 30-40hz region and still sounds good up top and in midband? Being in Australia, options of getting the speaker drivers are bit limited and importing can be costly. As such, I am keeping my options limited to what is currently available locally from darcher.com.au.
So far, her is the list of the drivers that are locally available.
Mark Audio Alpair 10p: http://www.darcher.com.au/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=95
Mark Audio Alpair 11ms: http://www.darcher.com.au/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=99
Mark Audio Alpair 12P: http://www.darcher.com.au/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=67
Before I go ahead and order couple of drivers, I just wanted to get the recommendation on which drivers to get and which design to build.
Here is what I am looking for.
- Easy to drive (around 90-91db sensitivity)
- Good bottom end (around 30-40hz)
- Somewhat flat frequency range
- Good soundstage and imaging
For now, I am thinking of building Pencil design http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf with Alpair 10p, but I am open to other suggestions both in speaker driver and box design (apart from Furgal horns), but as said above, in Australia its bit limited. Will the bigger drivers be better alternatives?
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A10p is my favorite from that group, you are kucky darcher still has some. In FHXL it gets to something like 35Hz anechoic F10. Pensil goes almost as low.
Both are very good.
Your reflex is small, the P7, while not capable of moving as much air, less resolution, and sensitivity can actually go as low.
dave
Both are very good.
Your reflex is small, the P7, while not capable of moving as much air, less resolution, and sensitivity can actually go as low.
dave
You are looking for a unicorn. Sure, we all want one. Darn laws of physics.
Before the FR fans go crazy, I did try a few A series, so I have a basis for my view. I put up with a pair if FE85's ( slightly modified) on my desk for a while before I could not stand it and added a tweeter. I keep hoping one will be smooth enough to be that killer 400-4K midrange we don't have in the market. Turns out there is a lot of wisdom in the old decade rule. 40-400, 400-4K, 4K up. etc. shift as needed. Mass, beaming, etc. The only one I would ever try for fun is, well the Furgal horn. Well, maybe if I DIY a BT speaker on battery power in a fold up horn for pool-side use.
Before the FR fans go crazy, I did try a few A series, so I have a basis for my view. I put up with a pair if FE85's ( slightly modified) on my desk for a while before I could not stand it and added a tweeter. I keep hoping one will be smooth enough to be that killer 400-4K midrange we don't have in the market. Turns out there is a lot of wisdom in the old decade rule. 40-400, 400-4K, 4K up. etc. shift as needed. Mass, beaming, etc. The only one I would ever try for fun is, well the Furgal horn. Well, maybe if I DIY a BT speaker on battery power in a fold up horn for pool-side use.
I would not pay much attention to Mr Geek. If his FE85 have anything like the top of the better FR88ex, i might think of adding a tweeter too.
dave
dave
Thank you Dave,
That is also what I was thinking of going with 10p, FHXL will not do in my room, it needs lot of room. Pencil would be better fit I think.
Going ahead with Alpair 10p.
Yes, Proper 3 way design would be sublime to listen to.
But in reality, it is lot more complicated to build with proper crossover and such. I have neither the knowledge nor the tools needed to do a proper crossover. That's why, for this build, I am sticking with Fullrange driver. I do have intention to build a proper 3 way speaker, but as I said, I need to learn the crossover design and need to invest in some tools.
I would also use the 10P, with the 11MS slightly behind, and a Frugel-Horn or a Pensil should work very well, they are both wel known classic that are build litterally a few hundred times. But my favorite MA driver is still the Alpair 10.3, the metal cone brother of the 10P
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As a brief aside about 3-ways: if / when you feel like going down that route (many do, many don't), I wouldn't, initially, try to learn about filter design. The truth is, the subtleties take years to properly understand, and that applies however the filter is implemented. Build a high quality existing project by a designer who knows what they are doing, and enjoy that as an initial stage and use that as the springboard (if you felt so inclined) from which to learn more.
Say, if I were to add a woofer for low end and keep the Alpair 10p for midrange and hi frequencies. What would be better woofer to use with this driver?
I have placed an order for the pair of alpairs and now thinking, if I make it a two way with woofer to serve the low end that would be better result, but then comes the complications of crossover design and such.
By the way, has any one done a build like that?
I have placed an order for the pair of alpairs and now thinking, if I make it a two way with woofer to serve the low end that would be better result, but then comes the complications of crossover design and such.
By the way, has any one done a build like that?
I use the 10.3 with a Scanspeak 26W/8534G00 woofer and that works very well, even with a passive 1st order crossover at 250Hz. If I would redo the setup, I would probally get a different woofer altough, the SB34NRX75-6 that is slightly better in my opinion.
The CSS 10" woofer would also be very good, but hard to get at this side of the Atlantic. The SB23MFCL45 is probally also a good option just like the Dayton RS225-4.And i'm sure there are more options availeble to do this.
But at the end it's all depending on what you want, small or big cabinet, active or passive crossover, how high crossed in what order, ...
And if you are going for a 2 way, a smaller driver or a flatter cone (like the 11MS) is a better option, the big point of the Alpair 10 series is that they can go low relative clean for a fullrange driver.
The CSS 10" woofer would also be very good, but hard to get at this side of the Atlantic. The SB23MFCL45 is probally also a good option just like the Dayton RS225-4.And i'm sure there are more options availeble to do this.
But at the end it's all depending on what you want, small or big cabinet, active or passive crossover, how high crossed in what order, ...
And if you are going for a 2 way, a smaller driver or a flatter cone (like the 11MS) is a better option, the big point of the Alpair 10 series is that they can go low relative clean for a fullrange driver.
I tried two other pairs, Alpair 6.2 , and I think it was a Hi-Vi. Can't remember. Sold the Mark, tossed the others. Three attempts was enough. Not even smooth enough for a midrange. Desire to violate the laws of physics does not change them, neither does lack of effort to understand said laws.
Now, I fully understand the desire and real benefits of getting a crossover out of the critical hearing range. 1000 to 6000 would be great. It is unfortunate that the physics of drivers puts a tweeter between 2500 and 3500, right where we do not want any phase or time shift. I get that. But it can't overcome the distortion from the cone decoupling, horribly ragged frequency response, inability to cover even mid base with authority, and non-existent off-axis response.
Yes, a multi-way is more complicated. Way more complicated. I have been dabbling at it for over 40 years and no where near mastered it. I even have a head start from a good friend who was a manufacturer, a degree in electronics, a book$helf full, and I don't even want to count what my pile of test equipment and porotype parts cost. I probably could have bought a pair of Wilsons and been ahead. But this is a DIY hobby. If you think you want to build a speaker without any engineering or effort, go for it. It will be a learning experience.
Hint: How many full range speakers are on the market vs multi-way? Head down to your local audio store and see. Full range are a niche romantic hobby. Fun I guess, but not how to achieve realistic sound reproduction.
Maybe with advances in materials technology, someday they will make a driver with distortion below 2% @ 96 dB, 60 to 16K , smooth within 1 dB, 60 degree beam, and no breakup. Not even close yet. The money is going into flat panel exciters and understanding how to zone them. Using DSP to implement time and frequency distortion in zones to artificially produce wider soundstage. Cool stuff. I was amazed how good the built in sound is in my new OLED TV. Not good enough to use it as my center, but darn it is getting better. More can be done in the hobby using DSP to reduce the ugly issues from passive crossovers. A lot of opportunity there. Enough effort with a MiniDSP might even make a 6.2 into a tolerable midrange. 😈
FWIW, the FE85 s were only listenable after doping the dust cap and with considerable eq. Metal just turns out not to be a very good cone. Advantages do not overcome the defects. I am down to only one pair of metal cones, Dayton S125's which are about the best behaved for any price. All my other mid-base are back to paper. My last pair of metal dome tweeters is on the chopping block with parts on order. Paper and fabric.
To each their own. No speaker is perfect. It's a hobby. Only your bank account gets hurt.
Yes, there are plenty of such designs in various forms. As for a woofer / midbass, you'll get lots of opinions; the truth is that it depends where your priorities lie, what your budget is etc. Scans are good, as noted above. Seas, Dayton & Wavecor are also usually solid, ditto Morel. I've had patchy results with SB: good examples are very good indeed, but that isn't always the case (in fairness, they're far from alone on that front & better than many).
A minor note: the usual advice in such circumstances is to cross very low, sometimes with a 1st order series filter. Unfortunately, the latter are not immune, as is often believed, from impedance variations, so if you cross anywhere remotely near a major LF peak, the alignment will be thrown completely out unless other measures are taken, or you use an active or passive line-level filter.
A decent 10 inch woofer can usually cross well into the '100's first order. Drivers built as subs, not so much so.
As far as the phase and time, model it. Fortunately, we are very insensitive to issues in the hundreds. In your model, pay very close attention to cone excursion. At about 1/2 X-Max, distortion will skyrocket*. You do better picking crossover frequencies based on excursion and desired SPL than by the frequency plot. A tip it took me years to figure out. So, model the Mark. If using a woofer, you can probably use it in a sealed alignment. Usually, you can use a first order electrical to get a second order LR alignment by playing with the parameters. I am talking in the 200 to 300 range. Now, a 200 Hz crossover has some BIG inductors, so think hard about if you want passive or active. Price a 12 gauge 10 mH coil! Like $70 and resistance starts to be a big factor. You may be able to get away with a sealed Mark and a generic sub plate if their built in crossover goes high enough and no HP filter.
Some have suggested the use of the woofer will reduce doppler distortion, but recent papers I have seen suggest otherwise. It is the reduction in traditional HD and AM distortion at higher excursion that matters. Maybe why the big horn is so popular. Far lower excursion due to the efficiency of loading the space. Of course, it comes with all the issues of horns. I'm not a horn fan either for home use. ( All the frequency issues in a horn are maybe masked by FR driver anomalies) 😛
Maybe Dave can answer, why have we not seen more work with lenses on DR full range to assist with the beaming issues? Opportunity? Or is there some over-riding reason it does not work out? Thinking of the multi-slat V shaped lenses JBL used.
*Some drivers, like the new Purifi are pushing this limit quite a bit. Asymmetric voice coil winding and pole piece configuration being factors.
As far as the phase and time, model it. Fortunately, we are very insensitive to issues in the hundreds. In your model, pay very close attention to cone excursion. At about 1/2 X-Max, distortion will skyrocket*. You do better picking crossover frequencies based on excursion and desired SPL than by the frequency plot. A tip it took me years to figure out. So, model the Mark. If using a woofer, you can probably use it in a sealed alignment. Usually, you can use a first order electrical to get a second order LR alignment by playing with the parameters. I am talking in the 200 to 300 range. Now, a 200 Hz crossover has some BIG inductors, so think hard about if you want passive or active. Price a 12 gauge 10 mH coil! Like $70 and resistance starts to be a big factor. You may be able to get away with a sealed Mark and a generic sub plate if their built in crossover goes high enough and no HP filter.
Some have suggested the use of the woofer will reduce doppler distortion, but recent papers I have seen suggest otherwise. It is the reduction in traditional HD and AM distortion at higher excursion that matters. Maybe why the big horn is so popular. Far lower excursion due to the efficiency of loading the space. Of course, it comes with all the issues of horns. I'm not a horn fan either for home use. ( All the frequency issues in a horn are maybe masked by FR driver anomalies) 😛
Maybe Dave can answer, why have we not seen more work with lenses on DR full range to assist with the beaming issues? Opportunity? Or is there some over-riding reason it does not work out? Thinking of the multi-slat V shaped lenses JBL used.
*Some drivers, like the new Purifi are pushing this limit quite a bit. Asymmetric voice coil winding and pole piece configuration being factors.
I wouldn't disagree about the upper BW limitations of most drivers described as subs (although we all know a few drivers described as such which can't reasonably be called subwoofers & are simply woofers, & can generally get higher). However, I'd like to know what you're basing the 'about 1/2 Xmax distortion will skyrocket' bit on. For a start, there's no single definition for what Xmax even is. A few years back, I gave up counting at about 12 different methods of generating a number that can be called Xmax, all of which gave different figures if applied to the same drive unit, and many manufacturers don't state which they use. On top of that, rather like EBP it was nominally created as a quick & dirty approximation / guideline (in this case to distortion performance) but it's far from either consistent, accurate, or especially useful beyond that rough ROT basis, given the wildly different motor & suspension designs out there.
The doppler argument isn't especially convincing, I'd agree; it's mostly a question of simple power-handling & the ability to shift air in the LF. As noted, one thing you have to watch with low filter frequencies (& applies to conventional multiways too) is the interaction of speaker level crossover components with the LF impedance peaks; in the bass leg for instance you can get some gain peaking in the octave or so above that if you don't take other compensation -in the case of vented boxes, usually an LCR Zobel on the upper box peak.
The doppler argument isn't especially convincing, I'd agree; it's mostly a question of simple power-handling & the ability to shift air in the LF. As noted, one thing you have to watch with low filter frequencies (& applies to conventional multiways too) is the interaction of speaker level crossover components with the LF impedance peaks; in the bass leg for instance you can get some gain peaking in the octave or so above that if you don't take other compensation -in the case of vented boxes, usually an LCR Zobel on the upper box peak.
There are many, and a number of approaches. I keep thinking of a stealthWoofer/deflector for the FHs. Finding woofers that work has been the issue. <aybe you can be a guinea pig.
A WAW with A10p will play loud. The Halcyon is an example.
Now an FHXL with stealth-woofers (or of any sort) will not really be a WAW, as the XO would typically be low, and in the easiest incarnation, XOed REL-style, so no real volume gains, but solid, solid bottom. This would typically mean an XO mear 50 Hz or so. Alternatively a LP & HP at about an octave above the FHXL cutoff, about 70-80 Hz.
A true WAW would need to have the A10p in a more midTweeter oriented enclosure.
This one just because it is large and impressive (A7/P7 midTweeter shown), it is but one example.:
The midTweeter TL is fairly generic and can be sized for A5 to A12.
dave
One of my favourites. After my 1st pair were sold while i was in hospital, i got 4 more to do it again. it is one of the few actual subwoofers that reaches fairly high.
Passive XOs in a WAW will be considerably more limiting than if you can bi-amp (multiple amps can be less-pricey as well, especially if you already have a spare amp in the closet.
dave
Only if you ar enot enamoured of the A6p/A10p/A12p “vintage” top-end.
Besides, the A10p already enroute.
dave
I base my 1/2 X-max on measuring quite a few drivers. That is roughly where they turn the corner on the bottom end. As you imply, truth is in measuring the driver yourself. I am not measuring displacement, but going by the calculated displacement from simulation and applying that voltage, then testing at a few representative frequencies. 1W, 5W, 10W as appropriate. Some are for sure better than others, but I have found my general rule a good place to start. Some start to climb a little more gradually, some are almost a vertical spike. And some the published spec is completely made up.
Actually, depressingly few very different motors and suspensions. Maybe that's part of the problem. 🙂
See, we occasionally agree!
The older carbon/paper 12 inch Peerless as a true sub does surprisingly well up to 200 or more. It could be used as a traditional monkey coffin 3-way, but alas, they screwed it up with a metal cone on the new version. A 10 has a far better chance of reaching more mids ( or full range)
I hope the CSS 7 is as good as it looks on paper. 2 on order. It looks like it is capable of crossing over as high as 2500, and as I don't play very loud, I can get away with that low on the XT25G60's. If not, then Scan Speak or SB. The Vifa's are just so smooth. You don't notice them. No character a all, only music.