Malefoda said:
The silmics are very nice caps in these areas, BG are better though. The silmics are excellent value if you use them after removing from dc blocking.
If i remember correctly Ray used BG for his opamps on one of his cd players.
Brent
Good capcacitors
I think the Elna lineup goes "standard", RJH/For Audio(?), Cerafine, Silmic.
Better than any of these would be Black Gate standard, then exotic Black Gates, such as FK.
In digital decoupling locations perhaps low impedance, high ripple curent caps designed just for the job are best. Sanyo os-con seem to be the kings.
Panasonic FC (replaces HFQ), FA, FM, FK and FJ and Rubycon ZA, ZL are all seemingly "respected" low-impedance types.
I have some Sanyo WX I will remove from my now broken Geforce 4 ti4400 (that's a graphics card if you didn't know!). It also has some os-cons but they're 4v. Also a few inductors. I'm hoping some of it might come in handy!
I ordered, along with my DIN connectors, a few 1uF PPS caps for bypass. What does anyone think about those?
Simon
I think the Elna lineup goes "standard", RJH/For Audio(?), Cerafine, Silmic.
Better than any of these would be Black Gate standard, then exotic Black Gates, such as FK.
In digital decoupling locations perhaps low impedance, high ripple curent caps designed just for the job are best. Sanyo os-con seem to be the kings.
Panasonic FC (replaces HFQ), FA, FM, FK and FJ and Rubycon ZA, ZL are all seemingly "respected" low-impedance types.
I have some Sanyo WX I will remove from my now broken Geforce 4 ti4400 (that's a graphics card if you didn't know!). It also has some os-cons but they're 4v. Also a few inductors. I'm hoping some of it might come in handy!
I ordered, along with my DIN connectors, a few 1uF PPS caps for bypass. What does anyone think about those?
Simon
Hi Rowemeister and Graigtone,
you have both completely missed the point.
I cannot judge whether BGs can do the job better than any other cap or alternative strategy, only those who have taken the time to do the research can offer that opinion.
So, the argument is not about the suitability of BGs.
It is about the statement made by Rowe when you said "The black gates needed are cheap mate". They are among the most expensive electrolytics available.
I say they are expensive.
Now if you were to suggest that BGs were cheap in comparison to the non polar film types then I could only agree.
470uf of film caps would be much more expensive.
That makes me wonder.
How little film capacitance would be needed to match the performance of a Black Gate in that position whether it was a 220uF or 470uF?
Now let's hear the result of that research and then tell me that using electros in lieu of film is not penny (or pound) pinching.
you have both completely missed the point.
I cannot judge whether BGs can do the job better than any other cap or alternative strategy, only those who have taken the time to do the research can offer that opinion.
So, the argument is not about the suitability of BGs.
It is about the statement made by Rowe when you said "The black gates needed are cheap mate". They are among the most expensive electrolytics available.
I say they are expensive.
Now if you were to suggest that BGs were cheap in comparison to the non polar film types then I could only agree.
470uf of film caps would be much more expensive.
That makes me wonder.
How little film capacitance would be needed to match the performance of a Black Gate in that position whether it was a 220uF or 470uF?
Now let's hear the result of that research and then tell me that using electros in lieu of film is not penny (or pound) pinching.
Hi Andrew,
I knew this rebuttal was coming! I saw that you both intended to mean different things. Of course Black Gate caps aren't cheap, but they prove to be good value to those who have tried them.
I think RM meant the caps are cheap in the context of Adam's system, which comprises a £50 "superclock" and several £20 "super regulators".
I would attempt to stuff more film caps into power supplies if only they would physically fit. However, you can't realistically squeeze much capacitance into a small space using a film cap, so a good compromise might be to use them as local decoupling in the 1uF sort of range where price/size/capacitance/ESR/ESL hits a sweet spot.
Agreed?
Simon
I knew this rebuttal was coming! I saw that you both intended to mean different things. Of course Black Gate caps aren't cheap, but they prove to be good value to those who have tried them.
I think RM meant the caps are cheap in the context of Adam's system, which comprises a £50 "superclock" and several £20 "super regulators".
I would attempt to stuff more film caps into power supplies if only they would physically fit. However, you can't realistically squeeze much capacitance into a small space using a film cap, so a good compromise might be to use them as local decoupling in the 1uF sort of range where price/size/capacitance/ESR/ESL hits a sweet spot.
Agreed?
Simon
AndrewT said:
Can we please stop this? 'Cheap' and 'expensive' are both relative terms. A teacher should know this...
rowemeister said:
You are right 😀.
Malefoda said:
The RJH have better ESR values compared to Cerafines, so it's not a waste. BG's should do the job even better. But maybe you prefer the sound of Silmics or other caps? With a little experimenting you can find out. In the rather old '63 list there's RJH's around the opamps, in the newer '57 and '67 lists you'll find Silmics and BG's. Feel free to combine different parts of lists 😀.
Regards,
Ray
I'll shut up, on condition, that folks at least try to be factual or show how they arrive at their conclusion.
DC offset: the frighteners!
Hi there!
Ray I feel free to follow your wise lists, and I'm very happy and grateful for your help!
So here I come again with DC offset...
with CDP on stop: 25.7mV on right, 30mV on left.
CDP playing: it dances! From -50 to +80mV... I'm scared! Average around 10/15.
At the headphones: at the normal volume (maybe 3 dots on screen) peaks up to 50! Also average 10/15
At the speakers... less! How it can be?? No sound: stands by 12mV. When CD plays, at "normal" volume peaks to... 70mV!
I've compared with:
Discman Panasonic: at line outlet : 2mv! But in fact very low volume output.
at headphones... starts to 250mV, and slowly goes down when the multimeter is on!
Sansui tuner: 15mV
So the CDP has the bigger DC offset, but I still don't know if all the amp have protection against this, if my next one has not I'll have to go back to caps... at what voltage I may consider my Quad and Grado may be harmed?
Is it normal the DC dances? Maybe the auto scale of the DMM makes the reading cray?
Night is coming soon, and I hope I can sleep tonight! Any idea?
Ah and I've forgotten : Peace & Love!
Hi there!
Ray I feel free to follow your wise lists, and I'm very happy and grateful for your help!
So here I come again with DC offset...
with CDP on stop: 25.7mV on right, 30mV on left.
CDP playing: it dances! From -50 to +80mV... I'm scared! Average around 10/15.
At the headphones: at the normal volume (maybe 3 dots on screen) peaks up to 50! Also average 10/15
At the speakers... less! How it can be?? No sound: stands by 12mV. When CD plays, at "normal" volume peaks to... 70mV!
I've compared with:
Discman Panasonic: at line outlet : 2mv! But in fact very low volume output.
at headphones... starts to 250mV, and slowly goes down when the multimeter is on!
Sansui tuner: 15mV
So the CDP has the bigger DC offset, but I still don't know if all the amp have protection against this, if my next one has not I'll have to go back to caps... at what voltage I may consider my Quad and Grado may be harmed?
Is it normal the DC dances? Maybe the auto scale of the DMM makes the reading cray?
Night is coming soon, and I hope I can sleep tonight! Any idea?
Ah and I've forgotten : Peace & Love!
Re: DC offset: the frighteners!
Hi!
The offset of your player is quite normal. I have about the same values. No need to be scared, it is supposed to be dancing when you press play: that's the music signal! You should always measure with no signal, because it's a DC voltage.
I don't think this level can do any harm. Your amp/preamp will not amplify DC voltages, because most feedback-loops are coupled for AC only. So the worst that can happen is you get 30mV on your speaker output. You can measure that easily at the output terminals (speakers connected). If it is less, that's even better. With a DC resistance of, let's say, 3 ohms that would be a total power of 0,3mW! Nothing a speaker can't handle. Of course it's better to have no DC at all, because the speaker is biased a bit, but this is a trade-off: caps in the signal path OR a tiny offset.
Regards,
Ray
Malefoda said:
Hi!
The offset of your player is quite normal. I have about the same values. No need to be scared, it is supposed to be dancing when you press play: that's the music signal! You should always measure with no signal, because it's a DC voltage.
I don't think this level can do any harm. Your amp/preamp will not amplify DC voltages, because most feedback-loops are coupled for AC only. So the worst that can happen is you get 30mV on your speaker output. You can measure that easily at the output terminals (speakers connected). If it is less, that's even better. With a DC resistance of, let's say, 3 ohms that would be a total power of 0,3mW! Nothing a speaker can't handle. Of course it's better to have no DC at all, because the speaker is biased a bit, but this is a trade-off: caps in the signal path OR a tiny offset.
Regards,
Ray
hello folks,
I have been intrigued by this thread and have gone through them a bit. So intrigued that I got purchased a cd63se for $25.
There have been so many different mods and levels of mod including revisions, what is the newest set/revisions of the mods?
I was looking at the pdf file on the first page where it says remarks, for example 2200u/35v + 100n x7r, does this mean bypass the cap w/ x7r
tHANKS
I have been intrigued by this thread and have gone through them a bit. So intrigued that I got purchased a cd63se for $25.
There have been so many different mods and levels of mod including revisions, what is the newest set/revisions of the mods?
I was looking at the pdf file on the first page where it says remarks, for example 2200u/35v + 100n x7r, does this mean bypass the cap w/ x7r
tHANKS
Thanks Ray, I think I may burn a candle at church and thanks God made you!
The DC at the full volume is 12mV at speakers 😉 of course 0 when volume at 0...
I'll sleep soooo well tonight =)
The DC at the full volume is 12mV at speakers 😉 of course 0 when volume at 0...
I'll sleep soooo well tonight =)
! Sleep well!
AndrewT said:
There is no way to quantitatively prove it. If you want to prove it, throw "cheap junk caps" in and audition the sound for several days. Then throw Black Gates in and audition again for another several days. That will be all the proof you'll ever needs!
The way I see it you have 2 options:
1. Argue with the MANY here who have done the above, try this "proof test" and risk damaging a connector or lifting a pad, etc.
2. Install the BG's based on the HELPFUL OPINIONS we are trying to provide and be happy it sounds so good!
Bottom line is ... YES ... BG's are "expensive" relatively speaking in terms of electrolytic caps. But even though expensive, they sell quite well ... and for a very good reason! FWIW, I buy them for ALL of my DIY audio projects regardless what they cost! But I am cheap enough that I only ever buy the STD's unless I am using for audio signal de-coupling, then I use NX! 🙂
Malefoda said:
LOL! Thanks! One of these days I'll update the pics and get more audio stuff on there ... Within a month the site will get a MAJOR overhaul!
wendell c said:
Hi Wendell,
I was in your position a month ago and my head still hurts. I have my parts but need some time to start! There appears to be newer / later / different mods going on all the time.
My guess is check Ray's (user 6h5c) home page
This spreadsheet in This post might help for ordering, but you will need to modify it for the CD63SE (which is not far diffferent anyway)
k.
Glenn2 said:
Nope!!
But I am working on having my own regulators built. They will be better than the Audiocom super reg and comparable with the Qpower reg.
I have been testing the prototypes and am very happy with them, it will be using two very low noise smt opamps for the reference circuit and a fet on the output and will be on cards that are a direct replacement for a 78** and 79**. Problem is the cost as its not the cheapest in low volumes. Never mind. lol.
I'll keep people posted
Brent