Yes I think it was a JVC record.This and the measuring equipment belong to my friend.I will ask him if he can measure directly from the turntable,but I think we can measure the phono stage output.Actually what we measured was the system sound in my room,with these cables,under the same normal listening conditions,as ww do with music.
I will let you know,but now I have to get some sleep,it is 2.30 in the morning here,and tomorrow I have a long day at the studio.
(TV studio 🙂 ).We talk again tomorrow.
I will let you know,but now I have to get some sleep,it is 2.30 in the morning here,and tomorrow I have a long day at the studio.
(TV studio 🙂 ).We talk again tomorrow.
It may be some effect you are hearing.
But I doubt it is to trace to a power cord.
And when terminated, at audio device input, with a good quality Mains Filter (mentioned in a post above)
one normal and good power cord would not effect anything audible.
Mains filtering is even more adviceble today.
With all these PC Computer Things connected to our household mains.
We can hardly say that Mains AC is only clean 50 Hz 230 AC.
No more than we can say that the Amazonas is clean river
when it runs out into the big Seven Seas.
But I doubt it is to trace to a power cord.
And when terminated, at audio device input, with a good quality Mains Filter (mentioned in a post above)
one normal and good power cord would not effect anything audible.
Mains filtering is even more adviceble today.
With all these PC Computer Things connected to our household mains.
We can hardly say that Mains AC is only clean 50 Hz 230 AC.
No more than we can say that the Amazonas is clean river
when it runs out into the big Seven Seas.
Panicos K said:
Faced with a choice of utter helplessness the "physicist community" reacts with denialism. It's all in your head.
You are asking the same people who believe all amplifiers sound the same whether a power cable can affect a motor 🙂
I know all my audio equipment can sound like crap or heaven depending on the time I wake up, whether I ate a meal, have a headache etc etc ad naseum. I dont know why but I have a **** eating grin everytime I listen to musc after a few drinks. I can even listen to music genres that I typically dislike without fatigue depending on such moods.
Strangely, all the equipment that I DIY'ed initially sounded better to me than a commercial model. If I A/B on a much later date without bias, that improvement is pretty much gone.
While I want to believe that something like a simple cable can make a positive audible difference, I'm now certain that its all in my feeble head with my body telling me whether its happy and relaxed or stressed.
Strangely, all the equipment that I DIY'ed initially sounded better to me than a commercial model. If I A/B on a much later date without bias, that improvement is pretty much gone.
While I want to believe that something like a simple cable can make a positive audible difference, I'm now certain that its all in my feeble head with my body telling me whether its happy and relaxed or stressed.
analog_sa said:
To the contrary, most of my former physics professors are into audio and are quite open-minded about cables and whatnot. In physics you just get a lot more used to mysterious phenomenon and voodoo stuff, like superstring theory and an 11-dimensional universe. It's the EE's that think all amplifiers sound the same.
In science, human listening is considered an objective observation. In engineering, anything not observed by measurement intruments is considered unreliable and worthless.
Actually i meant the diyaudio physics community. Some of the physics professors i knew were equally sceptical. I bet 56k modems were completely impossible in their universe.
Not all electronics engineers think power cables are a waste of time and not all studios use cheap, nasty wiring. These types of generalisations are not proof that differences don't exist. And this joke-argument of how the wire in the street isn't "shielded" or "fancy" is ridiculous too. You're making assumptions like "fancy", "shielded" or expensive are what make the difference! I'm inclined to believe it's "simple" physics, but there's no generally accepted rule. Why? I'd have thought a cable with the same impedance and immunity to RFI and other physical attributes would sound the same as another. And one with thinner conductors and no immunity to RFI pickup would sound different. I think this should be audible on a blind-test, though it is hard to do a blind test on a power cable, for obvious reasons!!!
FWIW when I've heard a big difference it's been between something with quite standard geometry and a braided wire. It's also the only time I've heard a massive difference between speaker cables (on a class A/B transistor amp, that was I think "competently engineered").
This points towards RFI affecting the audio equipment in some way. If this is the case why aren't these "competently designed" audio products immune?
Simon
FWIW when I've heard a big difference it's been between something with quite standard geometry and a braided wire. It's also the only time I've heard a massive difference between speaker cables (on a class A/B transistor amp, that was I think "competently engineered").
This points towards RFI affecting the audio equipment in some way. If this is the case why aren't these "competently designed" audio products immune?
Simon
SY has also pointed towards RFI for making some of the difference we hear. He has even gone as far as using old-fashioned transformers and filters.
No doubt you don't think mains impedance has much bearing on sound quality, or you might not like the idea of series filtering very much.
I think impedance is the other important variable.
Simon
No doubt you don't think mains impedance has much bearing on sound quality, or you might not like the idea of series filtering very much.
I think impedance is the other important variable.
Simon
In a sense, he's right. You have to consider the difference between science (the discovery of phenomena and the construction and revision of theories that explain the phenomena) and engineering (the use of the results of science to accomplish practical tasks).
Anyone finding this all a little anal?
For me if you test nice cables and they work for you great. If they don't work then don't buy again.
I for one like 'better' cables as I can hear sweeter treble and more extended bass in my system
Brent
For me if you test nice cables and they work for you great. If they don't work then don't buy again.
I for one like 'better' cables as I can hear sweeter treble and more extended bass in my system
Brent
It is pretty silly but I do find the psychology aspect interesting.
Who is the more wise - he who hears the differences or he who is too educated to accept differences?
Do the same people who value basic science in their daily lives also follow the healthy eating advice established decades ago that suggests it's actually a good thing to eat mainly refined carbohydrates?! We now "know" it is not healthy to eat mostly pasta and bread (etc.) but we should eat more good fats, protein and low GI carbs. Just an example of how improved understanding has led to different beliefs about what is right and wrong, or worse and better.
If home playback sound quality at the highest level was important to drugs companies or people's health this subject would have been researched and "proven". For now nobody cares too much and just chooses one side or the other, depending on their personality.
Simon
Who is the more wise - he who hears the differences or he who is too educated to accept differences?
Do the same people who value basic science in their daily lives also follow the healthy eating advice established decades ago that suggests it's actually a good thing to eat mainly refined carbohydrates?! We now "know" it is not healthy to eat mostly pasta and bread (etc.) but we should eat more good fats, protein and low GI carbs. Just an example of how improved understanding has led to different beliefs about what is right and wrong, or worse and better.
If home playback sound quality at the highest level was important to drugs companies or people's health this subject would have been researched and "proven". For now nobody cares too much and just chooses one side or the other, depending on their personality.
Simon
OK, so we've got RFI and power line "impedance" so far as possibilities.
RFI does exist, and ther are known methods of dealing with it, but I think there is a lot to be explained to get to the effects some people hear.
As for power line "impedance," could somebody explain that to me? I'm not saying it's not real, but I don't understand how it works in this case.
What else?
--Buckapound
RFI does exist, and ther are known methods of dealing with it, but I think there is a lot to be explained to get to the effects some people hear.
As for power line "impedance," could somebody explain that to me? I'm not saying it's not real, but I don't understand how it works in this case.
What else?
--Buckapound
To try and get more on-topic here's one reason why the "miles of cheap copper wire" argument can be reduced:
That copper wire in the street is already very thick, it has to be to maintain a low impedance and keep the voltage up under load. When you wire in an RCD or fuse in the consumer unit, 32A ring main or spur wiring to your sockets, add a cheap switched socket on the wall, and a (relatively) thin power extension and power lead to your hifi, you're adding a lot of impedance.
The impedance to your house was already extremely low, relative to those last few metres. This is what some people seem to miss. Add to this oxidised contacts, extensions, switches, fuses etc. and it's easy to see why the situation can be changed for the better. This also supports why people who upgrade their ring main wiring generally say the same thing - "it was the best upgrade I ever did".
I personally (no evidence, sorry!) think impedance and RFI are the two things you could measure and compare to the perceived changes we hear (or think we hear!) They are also two things that should be quite easy to change by these upgrades.
Simon
That copper wire in the street is already very thick, it has to be to maintain a low impedance and keep the voltage up under load. When you wire in an RCD or fuse in the consumer unit, 32A ring main or spur wiring to your sockets, add a cheap switched socket on the wall, and a (relatively) thin power extension and power lead to your hifi, you're adding a lot of impedance.
The impedance to your house was already extremely low, relative to those last few metres. This is what some people seem to miss. Add to this oxidised contacts, extensions, switches, fuses etc. and it's easy to see why the situation can be changed for the better. This also supports why people who upgrade their ring main wiring generally say the same thing - "it was the best upgrade I ever did".
I personally (no evidence, sorry!) think impedance and RFI are the two things you could measure and compare to the perceived changes we hear (or think we hear!) They are also two things that should be quite easy to change by these upgrades.
Simon
Buckapond,
I'm no scientist or trained engineer, so I won't try to explain impedance, I'd probably be shot down for getting it wrong.
I don't think there's much else to it other than those two factors you mention.
Some believe insulation/dielectric has an effect but I've not done anything to test this in isolation myself. Purity of copper would also be a possible factor that is hard to understand making a difference... but it might stay clean for longer.
Simon
I'm no scientist or trained engineer, so I won't try to explain impedance, I'd probably be shot down for getting it wrong.
I don't think there's much else to it other than those two factors you mention.
Some believe insulation/dielectric has an effect but I've not done anything to test this in isolation myself. Purity of copper would also be a possible factor that is hard to understand making a difference... but it might stay clean for longer.
Simon
According to SL, brain suggestions also works the other way around. Perhaps relevant to power "cable sound" discussion.
===
This apparently also works the other way around. If brain connections are set up in response to suggestions or expectations, then those will also be used to interpret incoming electrical stimuli. I am convinced that my friend who claims he hears the difference when he first demagnetizes a CD before playing it, he actually perceives it as such and it is reality for him . I cannot hear it, but then I have a low expectation of hearing any effect. It does not make sense to me that there could be a difference.
This is a tricky area for a loudspeaker designer. I therefore try to focus on the basics of acoustic and electrical design and to stay out of it. I try to maintain firm auditory references by refreshing them periodically, like having season tickets for the symphony. It is easy to get lost. High-end audio is full of gadgets and supporting theories. For some this is the way to Nirvana. I prefer composers and performing musicians to lead me there.
By all means read: "This Is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin
Will product like this gives better transparency and veil lifted? I will leave that to one's ears:
===
This apparently also works the other way around. If brain connections are set up in response to suggestions or expectations, then those will also be used to interpret incoming electrical stimuli. I am convinced that my friend who claims he hears the difference when he first demagnetizes a CD before playing it, he actually perceives it as such and it is reality for him . I cannot hear it, but then I have a low expectation of hearing any effect. It does not make sense to me that there could be a difference.
This is a tricky area for a loudspeaker designer. I therefore try to focus on the basics of acoustic and electrical design and to stay out of it. I try to maintain firm auditory references by refreshing them periodically, like having season tickets for the symphony. It is easy to get lost. High-end audio is full of gadgets and supporting theories. For some this is the way to Nirvana. I prefer composers and performing musicians to lead me there.
By all means read: "This Is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin
Will product like this gives better transparency and veil lifted? I will leave that to one's ears:
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