Just to show that DIY can "do" the cabs.. although these don't use the same drivers. ie its not a "clone"
http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/johnpmid2.JPG
from Iowa 2006. get together.
http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/johnpmid2.JPG
from Iowa 2006. get together.
limono said:
I would assume they would be used as a second system in a smaller listening room where the lord of the manor could enjoy his music without interruptions.
A "his" room.. hence the sloping top on the speakers so "she" can't put flower vases on top, a real design plus !!. 😀
Certainly one would have to question the effectiveness as a main system in a large room.. physics and all that !!
terry j said:
Andc qualities glue contributes. (puhlease)
Do we really have to go over this again??
Manufactures usually use modified drivers to protect design from copying efforts of communities like this and People Republic of China -what so hard to understand.
For your own use you can go and buy speaker in grocery store and claim that to your ears it sounds the same as $$$$$ mega high-end (many people do that -don't they)
In audio every detail matters , even stupid glue and board you use add to the final effect otherwise why they would research exotic materials ???? The product is the sum of its parts . Even if the effect of your DIY effort would be objectively better than Orginal Magico how do you know that this guy subjective impression wouldn't be totally different because it would not obviously sound like Magico mini , would it ?? (damn English😀
tpsorin said:
Automobiles have the benefit of massive economies of scale.
I'm a maintenance supervisor for a food processing corporation. When I see what a million dollars buys in, say, a piece of equipment that puts a bag of Cheerios into a box, I marvel at how Lexus can sell a car so cheaply! The number of parts in an auto, the level of machining and finish, the sophistication of the electronics for the dollar are off the chart compared to anything that is hand made one at a time in limited numbers.
The Magico is proced more in line with the equipment I support at work.
limono said:
For someone who lives in a million-dollar high-rise condo in Manhattan or San Francisco and doesn't want to tick off the neighbors with huge woofers, $20,000 mini monitors might be within reason. I'll never be that person!
Years ago I've read in audio magazine (it was the time when I read those ) that if people in general expected quality in audio comparable to the quality they expect in cars we would have lived in a different (audio) world . How true.
limono said:
I won't go back and confirm, but are you not the person who has no experience with DIY? (if wrong, then sorry).
So, could you inform us of your investigations into the sonic properties of various glues, and detail just how they sound different?
Can you put the various details that matter in audio into some sort of heirarchy for us please, ie just where in the pecking order you would place the effects of different glues in the magico sound.
Yes, everything matters in audio, yep had those discussions before, down to the minutiae of the different sounds we get from building our stereo racks out of different woods...PUHLEEEEEASE!
I would wager changing the tolerance of some of the crossover components would have a larger affect on the sound than the glue used to construct the box. I don't want to particularly harp on this point, it was a throwaway line, but it appears to have assumed some degree of importance to the non-diyer in you.
Hmm, research into exotic materials...wouldn't that have more to do with market delineation?
Re the 'driver built to my specs' line, that happens in cables too don't it? Buy enough of the stuff and the obliging manufacturer would put any printing on the cable you want, is that 'built to our exacting specs' enough for you?
Why would it not sound like the mini? I can get exactly the same response using the deqx, indeed as I say I can tailor it to MY tastes.
Oh, forgot, I'm not using the modified drivers and special glue.
Ahh, the power of product promotion.
remember Terry..
we DIYers can only buy the crappiest drivers, nothing SS, Seas, AC, etc etc or anyone else sells to DIY is anywhere near as good as what the manufacturers use.
none of use know anything about cabinetry, and manufacturers have access to VERY SPECIAL glues and timbers that we can never get hold of.
despite the fact that most manufacturers use very much the same software as we have available to use.. none of us can do anything with it.
furthermore, none of us know what music should sound like anyway. ;-))
lets face it....... we are just a lost cause !!!
we DIYers can only buy the crappiest drivers, nothing SS, Seas, AC, etc etc or anyone else sells to DIY is anywhere near as good as what the manufacturers use.
none of use know anything about cabinetry, and manufacturers have access to VERY SPECIAL glues and timbers that we can never get hold of.
despite the fact that most manufacturers use very much the same software as we have available to use.. none of us can do anything with it.
furthermore, none of us know what music should sound like anyway. ;-))
lets face it....... we are just a lost cause !!!
sigh, I guess you're right Andy.
BTW, LOVE the pics on your site of all the translams.
I was going to point out that the OP will never hear the same sound even if he bought the magico minis, as he will (no doubt) be hearing them in a different room than the room he auditioned them in...but the speaker/room interaction will doubtless be swamped by the sonic consequences of using different glues....it is evidently waaay down the list of contributions to the sound.
BTW, LOVE the pics on your site of all the translams.
I was going to point out that the OP will never hear the same sound even if he bought the magico minis, as he will (no doubt) be hearing them in a different room than the room he auditioned them in...but the speaker/room interaction will doubtless be swamped by the sonic consequences of using different glues....it is evidently waaay down the list of contributions to the sound.
unfortunately I have had to remove those pages, to make room for more pics of my own stuff. (10Mb gets et fast with pics !!!)
but I left a link to else where they are.
Still, more crazy pics on the way real soon ;-)
but I left a link to else where they are.
Still, more crazy pics on the way real soon ;-)
Somebody can find this interesting
And I also find out the cabinets are all hand made in the US paying a craftsman $25/hr..
Cabinets fot minis are made in Denmark in this factory /which i suppose make also other "better" cabinets for other brands/
http://www.hifi4all.dk/content/templates/besogsartikler.asp?articleid=1450&zoneid=4
And I also find out the cabinets are all hand made in the US paying a craftsman $25/hr..
Cabinets fot minis are made in Denmark in this factory /which i suppose make also other "better" cabinets for other brands/
http://www.hifi4all.dk/content/templates/besogsartikler.asp?articleid=1450&zoneid=4
I posted that earlier in the thread. Hornslet make some of the nicest cabinets in the world for several different manufacturers. Denmark isn't the third world and I am sure the price to have them make things is comensurate with living wages there which are higher than the US.
C
C
Final (final means finished-ready for use) reject rates on cabinets for speakers in the high-end are at around 20-25%, due to finishing difficulties. The manufacturer pays for all of them, regardless. And their custom shipping containers. And their shipping from Denmark. And...And... $$..$$
A good batch can come in at 15% reject rate. But don't count on it.
Our cabinets are done in a factory that even we are not allowed into. Any other manufacturer is also disallowed entry into the factory.
A good batch can come in at 15% reject rate. But don't count on it.
Our cabinets are done in a factory that even we are not allowed into. Any other manufacturer is also disallowed entry into the factory.
Magico Mini and costs, con't (a little long)
a couple of more points to make RE: costs to produce, etc.
Where a distributor is present in a country (a good thing) they are entitled to make a living too (sorry I missed that in my earlier post!).
The comments regarding -3Xs the retail as being cost for a distributor is not that far off. The distributors also have costs other than just labour and handling costs. and should be entitled to a fair return on investment and costs. Most retailers make 35 gross profit (or try to) to keep the doors open. That's reality....
the enclosures and stuff that goes in them
now as far as the design of the enclosure, many makers have used non-paralell walled enclosures, not just Magico. TAD, JBL, Tannoy and many others have used similar shapes and construction techniques. So whatever Magico is doing they must be somewhat unique, so the combination of their drivers (sourced from wherever) and crossovers (designed in-house) and the details make them unique. So sourced special amber resins (no doubt enriched with musk ox **** ) can be part of the "recipe" of the speaker.
None of this is to take away from truly creative designers and builders in any way. They just have the resources needed to find out if that special glue is the one. Same with the wall construction, wall materials (of the enclosures I mean) , etc.
So manufacturers do deserve a "break" from the DIY crowd. The reality is that if the market will bear what it is that they are selling (and part of that may be exclusivity) at the price that they feel it should sell at, who cares?
I can't afford $20k speakers. I can't afford $2k speakers. But I do have a pretty good set of ears, and pride myself at "getting the most for the least ". And this is where some DIY can come in. Pay an engineer for his/her time doing the development work on your project, pay yourself for your time for construction at a market reasonable rate, and buy your materials. I think most can see that the costs can add up in a hurry.
So as far as DIYers go, understand that not all may have your patience, or skill set or time or knowledge, and simply will buy what they can afford based on what is in the market and what they can justify to themselves.
a couple of more points to make RE: costs to produce, etc.
Where a distributor is present in a country (a good thing) they are entitled to make a living too (sorry I missed that in my earlier post!).
The comments regarding -3Xs the retail as being cost for a distributor is not that far off. The distributors also have costs other than just labour and handling costs. and should be entitled to a fair return on investment and costs. Most retailers make 35 gross profit (or try to) to keep the doors open. That's reality....
the enclosures and stuff that goes in them
now as far as the design of the enclosure, many makers have used non-paralell walled enclosures, not just Magico. TAD, JBL, Tannoy and many others have used similar shapes and construction techniques. So whatever Magico is doing they must be somewhat unique, so the combination of their drivers (sourced from wherever) and crossovers (designed in-house) and the details make them unique. So sourced special amber resins (no doubt enriched with musk ox **** ) can be part of the "recipe" of the speaker.
None of this is to take away from truly creative designers and builders in any way. They just have the resources needed to find out if that special glue is the one. Same with the wall construction, wall materials (of the enclosures I mean) , etc.
So manufacturers do deserve a "break" from the DIY crowd. The reality is that if the market will bear what it is that they are selling (and part of that may be exclusivity) at the price that they feel it should sell at, who cares?
I can't afford $20k speakers. I can't afford $2k speakers. But I do have a pretty good set of ears, and pride myself at "getting the most for the least ". And this is where some DIY can come in. Pay an engineer for his/her time doing the development work on your project, pay yourself for your time for construction at a market reasonable rate, and buy your materials. I think most can see that the costs can add up in a hurry.
So as far as DIYers go, understand that not all may have your patience, or skill set or time or knowledge, and simply will buy what they can afford based on what is in the market and what they can justify to themselves.
limono said:
Yep its really cold in the UK winter time right now so I've chopped the speakers up and thrown them on the fire. I was going to get round to it sooner or later anyway, after all its only DIY.. 😀
Your quick to set yourself up as somewhat anti-DIY yet your experience seem to ill equip you for that conclusion.
Besides all the gross generalisations, misinformation and border line trolling I have to ask the question; "Why are you here?"
Have a bit of respect in the future, DIY requires more effort than popping into 'Highend r Us' and plonking a credit card down. No matter what the end result the effort deserves commendation and encouragement. Anything commercial can do, DIY can do too and any other opinion is just short sighted. Go listen to something from Dave in Canada, Tony/Troels in the Netherlands or John in the States and then tell me DIY is a curiosity rather than a serious alternative to highend such as the Magico.
Finally, I don't go trolling over commercial forums telling folks they should throw their speakers in the fireplace and neither should you do the same here. Remember where you are, this forum is for constructive DIY comments, information sharing and a place for the like-minded individuals to be part of a community interested in bettering itself.
Does all this seem a little off from me? Well its almost as if you wanted this kind of reply.
BTW thanks Salas 😉
A friend of mine is a cabinetmaker.
He had a neighbour who took all his cabinetmaking wood scraps and burned them in his wood stove, to heat the house-to save money.
That entire family died of cancer within two years.
You have been warned!
He had a neighbour who took all his cabinetmaking wood scraps and burned them in his wood stove, to heat the house-to save money.
That entire family died of cancer within two years.
You have been warned!
To clone successfully you need to have the cloned object in hand .Take it apart , measure and build exact copy using the same materials -Am I the only one here with all senses intact??
I think that original poster "got it" at least and did what I suggested from the beginning. (you don't have to thank me Saltuk).
If some (or all) of you feel offended by my reasoning -sorry .It's only hobby after all.
Many times I posted that you probably could do better than Magico Mini.
My mentioning of a fireplace was a metaphor to the many iterations one must go trough to get desired effect result not that you should burn your DIY speakers in it. I thought it was obvious enough. I know that you use the same software as a pros ,which suggest that you're getting the same type of High-End sound .
I'm here because I DIY .I bought an old alnico coaxials on flea market for $60 and put it in shabby jensen cabs .I don't think there is A high-end speaker in the market which can compete with those. I'm serious. You all have a Merry , Merry Christmas.
REgards, L
I think that original poster "got it" at least and did what I suggested from the beginning. (you don't have to thank me Saltuk).
If some (or all) of you feel offended by my reasoning -sorry .It's only hobby after all.
Many times I posted that you probably could do better than Magico Mini.
My mentioning of a fireplace was a metaphor to the many iterations one must go trough to get desired effect result not that you should burn your DIY speakers in it. I thought it was obvious enough. I know that you use the same software as a pros ,which suggest that you're getting the same type of High-End sound .
I'm here because I DIY .I bought an old alnico coaxials on flea market for $60 and put it in shabby jensen cabs .I don't think there is A high-end speaker in the market which can compete with those. I'm serious. You all have a Merry , Merry Christmas.
REgards, L
limono said:
Hi,
Do you believe you could hear the difference? I don't think I could.
They are not talking about building it from inferior materials, but a well made replica, using virtually identical parts.
I think you are out of your depth here.
I'd say he's not out of his depth. I'd say he's exactly correct. And I do know what I'm talking about.
Which is why I made the comment about our cabinet builders not allowing us into their factory at all.
Which is why the photo of other's work being on the net is, in my opinion...(put as nicely as possible)..not a good thing. You want to copy it? At least have the decency to buy a pair and work from there.
That's the best a manufacturer can hope for: if their work is going to be ripped off, then at least have the decency to be paying for the working sample.
I'm of two minds on this. I very much respect and desire the idea and execution of DIY. After all, we all (anyone who bothers to attempt getting into business) come from somewhere, don't we?
However, it can be a hotbed of pure, unadulterated, disrespectful theft..and folks from other countries who's only desire is to steal all good ideas and use them for their own benefit in business enterprises, with zero to no acknowledgment of the origins of the ideas, those folks can -and many times are- paying close attention..well..how is one supposed to have respect for that?
Which is why I made the comment about our cabinet builders not allowing us into their factory at all.
Which is why the photo of other's work being on the net is, in my opinion...(put as nicely as possible)..not a good thing. You want to copy it? At least have the decency to buy a pair and work from there.
That's the best a manufacturer can hope for: if their work is going to be ripped off, then at least have the decency to be paying for the working sample.
I'm of two minds on this. I very much respect and desire the idea and execution of DIY. After all, we all (anyone who bothers to attempt getting into business) come from somewhere, don't we?
However, it can be a hotbed of pure, unadulterated, disrespectful theft..and folks from other countries who's only desire is to steal all good ideas and use them for their own benefit in business enterprises, with zero to no acknowledgment of the origins of the ideas, those folks can -and many times are- paying close attention..well..how is one supposed to have respect for that?
KBK said:
Hi,
Sounds like you are out of your depth too.
What's the market for high end speakers? Not people that would bother with a knock off.
How many high end speaker designs are being ripped off to sell to the target market? My guess would be next to none.
I see absolutely no problem whatsoever in "cloning" a design for your own personal use, and it's ridiculous to suggest a person should buy the product to do so.
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