You asking questions that has never been answered conclusively since the beginning of reproduction of sound, you are not the last. It is what it is everyone is looking for recognition and approval of their own subjective perception. If you want to know what most might accept as good, Google the sales figures of every speaker you can find that you consider affordable.
If a million people bought unit A and one person says that unit B is ultimate who would you believe. Don't believe in speculations, that's why they are not facts. Why do you choose Pepsi and not Coke? I am sure that you have never insisted on a chemical test before choosing it.
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When you have discovered your perfect speakers, come back here and ask what furniture, drapes, pictures, light fittings and ornaments are best suited to your listening environment, then you may ask where exactly to place them. If I told you that everything will affect your sound would you believe it. You will find many answers from those in the knowing, everyone will insist he/she is right because they either measured or built or experienced or read something. With all this speculative, even measured information you still have to make up your own mind and buy whatever is suggested maybe even blindly on the internet. Maybe just off a picture, maybe there are specs that you were informed of being crucial. When you have a mobile entertainment system installed in your prized car, what guarantee is there that you will enjoy it. The installer will give you every reason that you should enjoy it, but you don't - now what?
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Sorry when you speak of compression you mean distortion?
I am trying to simplify concepts to hope to understand something
If you want to discuss this seriously you will have to get familiar with specific sorts of "distortion".
Compression will happen when the voice coil heats up and therefore the resistance of the driver increases, reducing the current flowing, but there are several other factors adding to compression possible. A certain degree (sic!) of compression will always happen, because any current will create heat in a resistive conductor.
My point is compression can be only perceived or it can be measured as well
How compression manifest itself in measurements?
If not we are talking about sensations that being subjective are open to different evaluation
I think that compression can be checked with specific distortion measurements
Maybe I am wrong
Distortion it's the opposite of accuracy
I like accuracy a lot
How compression manifest itself in measurements?
If not we are talking about sensations that being subjective are open to different evaluation
I think that compression can be checked with specific distortion measurements
Maybe I am wrong
Distortion it's the opposite of accuracy
I like accuracy a lot
have a look at this speaker test, as an example:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_q3_meta/
and scroll down to:
"Dynamic Range (Instantaneous Compression Test)"
and
"Compression of transfer function"
Erin explains the relevance of the second graph as follows:
I think you need to get some more background knowledge to be ready for your search for absolute accuracy!
😊
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maybe you should start with some basic knowledge in a book. We are used that you know some basic terminology of speakers in our discussion. The loudspeaker design cookbook is a possible good start for this.
i think i get your point Everything in audio is a matter of taste ?
for instance if the recording is bad a very accurate speaker could sound bad because it exposes more the issues in the recording ?
and better a less accurate speaker that makes the sound more bearable ? it could be
I am interested in those compression effects mentioned elsewhere For instance if a recording is compressed could not be able to convey the live feeling
The dynamic range of instruments should be preserved
And also the speakers classes are not very rigorous to me Some Klipsch speakers look very PA to me
and also some of the latest high end solutions I see big woofers and horns maybe made out of precious woods But the designs are very similar
Look at Erin's Audio Corner Site I mentioned and watch (all) his videos!
You will have to do some research, not just ask here ...
you are right clearly The concept i am following is this one
for the head i was thinking to a small fullrange driver mounted in an aluminum cabinet
I have 8 Teac ls-x5 and 5 Kef hts 2001 bought mostly for their cabinet
A small fullrange should have a fs around 150 Hz ? the idea is to use it to cover from 2xfs Hz up
Thanks for the link Great review indeed
my point is that i would start from the measurements sure that they could provide already a good picture of the speaker performance
i would start from the objective testing to end with subjective listening impressions
Because what is objective is objective for anyone
i like the John Dunlavy approach Taken from a review on Stereophile magazine
I do not want to provoke sarcasm speaking of specifically designed arbitrary waveforms to test loudspeaker drivers That would be too much
maybe they are not even needed The common testing signals could be more than enough
but what I really struggle to understand is why when someone talks about a square wave or multitones tests on an amplifier no one says a word while if they are proposed to test a speaker someone threatens to call the police
or an exorcist
Hi,
topic of this thread is what everyone should be doing, outside the forum 🙂 listening, and comparing to measurements if measurements are something one needs to use, like while designing / adjusting systems. This is literally the only mystery in sound playback systems. Issues is, microphone is before auditory system and the whole auditory system stays mysterious, unless one starts to study it, for very least with some experiments but quick read wouldn't make things worse.
This is a paper that has quick overview on auditory system from hifi perspective so is interesting and not too hard to read, like many other papers on auditory system, as it's vastly more compelx than any equipment involved in a playback system: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370537927_The_Human_Auditory_System_and_Audio
While the paper doesn't give much into how to improve hifi system, it is just a reminder that one should look inside, study what happens inside your head instead of the equipment.
I think that many people do not comprehend how much auditory system has in play, and contribute all kinds of perceived effects to the equipment, as the equipment is something external and objects we can point our fingers to. I was that person, until happened to perceive what Griesinger describes as Limit of Localization Distance and started thinking about this stuff more deeply. Basically what we perceive is not the sound that enters the ear, is not the speaker or the amplifier, but what our auditory system provides into perception, and is affected by many many processes and stimuli, not just what enters the ear. What this means is that one piece of gear in one room in one day for one person might seem what makes good sound, while the same thing for another person in another room and day might not. This has lead to things like main listening position, which I think is major limitation enjoying this stuff, because perceptually there is at least two different sound available that likely require two different "main listening positions".
Well, thought to mention this kind of stuff, easily forgotten from gear oriented discussion. So, to understand how perception and measured graphs relate, look also into auditory system, not just the gear. Check out how measurements relate to how your auditory system processes sensory input to perception and forget about the gear. Carry on 🙂
topic of this thread is what everyone should be doing, outside the forum 🙂 listening, and comparing to measurements if measurements are something one needs to use, like while designing / adjusting systems. This is literally the only mystery in sound playback systems. Issues is, microphone is before auditory system and the whole auditory system stays mysterious, unless one starts to study it, for very least with some experiments but quick read wouldn't make things worse.
This is a paper that has quick overview on auditory system from hifi perspective so is interesting and not too hard to read, like many other papers on auditory system, as it's vastly more compelx than any equipment involved in a playback system: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370537927_The_Human_Auditory_System_and_Audio
While the paper doesn't give much into how to improve hifi system, it is just a reminder that one should look inside, study what happens inside your head instead of the equipment.
I think that many people do not comprehend how much auditory system has in play, and contribute all kinds of perceived effects to the equipment, as the equipment is something external and objects we can point our fingers to. I was that person, until happened to perceive what Griesinger describes as Limit of Localization Distance and started thinking about this stuff more deeply. Basically what we perceive is not the sound that enters the ear, is not the speaker or the amplifier, but what our auditory system provides into perception, and is affected by many many processes and stimuli, not just what enters the ear. What this means is that one piece of gear in one room in one day for one person might seem what makes good sound, while the same thing for another person in another room and day might not. This has lead to things like main listening position, which I think is major limitation enjoying this stuff, because perceptually there is at least two different sound available that likely require two different "main listening positions".
Well, thought to mention this kind of stuff, easily forgotten from gear oriented discussion. So, to understand how perception and measured graphs relate, look also into auditory system, not just the gear. Check out how measurements relate to how your auditory system processes sensory input to perception and forget about the gear. Carry on 🙂
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Thank you My first serious step has been the purchase of a Dats V3 i do not know how accurate it is but my impression is that is a gem of tool
I am trying to set up a simple rig to get freq response But i have to find a cheap Behringer mic i bought years ago and never used
I am afraid i will have to buy another
I would like to get away with a 2 way speaker
a nice woofer below a small full range I hear only up to 13k max
Here is a book that will explain everything you want to know to start you of on your speaker building path. I is old but physics have not changed. Down load it and print your own copy, you will thank me one day.
https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Phil...onBook_BuildingHiFiSpeakerSystems_1970-10.pdf
https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Phil...onBook_BuildingHiFiSpeakerSystems_1970-10.pdf
Hi thank you for your valuable advice I guess they have a standardized way to perform the test If not any comparison would be flawed off course
the point he was making is that is not possible to predic sound quality on the basis of an FR test alone
when i ask what about a distortion test i get always the same answer Overrated
i do not know the test conditions But again my curiosity is more general For instance he declares the sonic superiority of air core coils vs iron core coils
I wonder if this sonic superiority can be predicted performing a set of electrical measurements Just that I am not asking of walking on the moon
there must be a kind of electrical superiority
Thanks again Actually this is what i have in mind but i would like to keep the fullrange outside in a small box
i understand it has just to be very heavy While for the woofer the cabinet must be stiff to move resonances up in frequency
i have learned the lesson now
Hi well i thank you very much indeed already i understand Philips made great drivers in the past But i had a bad experience with vintage drivers
Some at least can degrade with time I have two dome mids quite different for TS parameters from one to the other
And both far from the original specs In a word not usable Wasted money
There's multiple challenges and problems to your quest but first and foremost....
What is the reference or Benchmark?
I'll give you a hint,......in the interpretation of Art regardless of the medium, there is none.
Human beings are tremendously susceptible to bias......subjective, suggestive, objective.......you name it......the most difficult person to be honest with is yourself.
Sighted listening is just about the best way to establish a baseline bias..........a misguided understanding of how you perceive the world around you is.....i can see it, therefor it is............not a good place to find yourself if enjoying music for the satisfaction for the whole thing
so you are telling me that man has been able to go to the moon but struggles to find a set of measurements that can predict a loudspeaker sound ?
said in another way when a driver designer makes a prototype of a woofer how he knows that it is good ? by listening to it ?
i cannot believe this
I think that he performs specific measurements and maybe ends with some listening tests to confirm the measurements
the testing protocol is an important part of the knowhow of the designer