Apparently you didn't notice that the Vifa Midrange is no longer available (or at least, out of stock) from Madisound.
Without being able to see an Impedance and Frequency Response graph on the midrange, it is difficult to tell if it will work in your design.
The Woofer you have chosen has a nasty peak around 3khz. That in itself is not a problem, as it's typical of aluminum cone woofers. Even the Dayton woofer has one, but the Dayton's is much higher, centered on 7khz.
You are either going to have to crossover low enough and/or sharp enough to make sure that peak is sufficiently attenuated when you reach it. That is going to be difficult with the peak at 3khz, but it can still be done. Though it could be done easier with the Dayton. Or you are going to have to set a trap for it.
The tweeter looks OK, if you can find a midrange to spans the range you need.
Like I said...it's never easy.
Steve/bluewizard
Without being able to see an Impedance and Frequency Response graph on the midrange, it is difficult to tell if it will work in your design.
The Woofer you have chosen has a nasty peak around 3khz. That in itself is not a problem, as it's typical of aluminum cone woofers. Even the Dayton woofer has one, but the Dayton's is much higher, centered on 7khz.
You are either going to have to crossover low enough and/or sharp enough to make sure that peak is sufficiently attenuated when you reach it. That is going to be difficult with the peak at 3khz, but it can still be done. Though it could be done easier with the Dayton. Or you are going to have to set a trap for it.
The tweeter looks OK, if you can find a midrange to spans the range you need.
Like I said...it's never easy.
Steve/bluewizard
Well that midrange is in stock at parts express, but if you guys really think it is inconsistent then what would be a better choice for a mid in that price range that has similar power and frequency range (as long as its not a plain paper cone, these speakers are not going to have the grille on most of the time so the drivers must be attractive)?
Also, as far as cabinet design I think I am pretty decided on making a cabinet for each driver with a very tiny one on the top for the tweeter. I have a welder and metal to build a frame to hold the 3 individual wooden cabinets so these should end up looking somewhat like goldmunds. The only question then is, sealed or ported but I am leaning towards sealed.
Whatever it takes to build the crossover (as long as its not too expensive that is lol) I am willing to undertake. Also, someone suggested maybe I go with a 2-way instead? Could you elaborate on what woofer I would want to use with that tweeter for a 2-way?
I have to say I am leaning towards 3-way because I want these to have enough bass to be used for music without a sub in a medium sized room but I am sure you guys know more about it than I do.
Again, thanks guys, you are the best!
Also, as far as cabinet design I think I am pretty decided on making a cabinet for each driver with a very tiny one on the top for the tweeter. I have a welder and metal to build a frame to hold the 3 individual wooden cabinets so these should end up looking somewhat like goldmunds. The only question then is, sealed or ported but I am leaning towards sealed.
Whatever it takes to build the crossover (as long as its not too expensive that is lol) I am willing to undertake. Also, someone suggested maybe I go with a 2-way instead? Could you elaborate on what woofer I would want to use with that tweeter for a 2-way?
I have to say I am leaning towards 3-way because I want these to have enough bass to be used for music without a sub in a medium sized room but I am sure you guys know more about it than I do.
Again, thanks guys, you are the best!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hmmm........ Style or Substance or both or neither ? Discuss ..... 😉/sreten.
sreten said:
Meaning that Goldmund uses a metal frame that suspends individual cabinets, and I plan to do something similar.
Not saying they'll be anywhere near as good as goldmunds (although I do think their prices are a ripoff, I am sure they are good speakers) but they should look somewhat similar.
Here is a link to the Frequency Response graph (actually tech spec sheet) for the Morel MDM55 Mid.
http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/Midrange/Specs sheet MDM55.pdf
Compare it to the Frequency response graphs for your woofer and tweeter. It has a resonance of 280hz and a claimed response from 250 to 6500.
In my limited estimation, the MDM55 is good (has a realistic working range) from 800hz to 900hz on the low end, and on the high end, 2000hz to 3000hz, but it could be stretched up to 4000hz.
Notice on the Frequency Response on the bottom right hand side of the Tech Sheet I linked to. You see a BOLD line for the 0 degree on-axis response, and you see two fainter lines for the 30 degree and 60 degree off-axis response. You could push this Mid up to 5000 hz, but notice the off-axis line dropping farther away from the on-axis. You want to stay away from that area as much as possible. So, if you can tolerate -5db or -6db loss of sound 30 degrees off center from the speaker, then fine, you can go as high as 5khz. But it's better in the 2khz to 3khz range, and just tolerable in up to 4khz. In my very limited opinion.
So, does that fit your other speakers???
Woofer - Seas L22RN4X/P
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1208.pdf?osCsid=cff160d6c1aad3b6df61e44ec1afc22b
Tweeter - 29TAF/W (6 ohm)
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/h1322.pdf
Notice again, the tweeter frequecy response graph has three lines on it that move farther apart as the frequency goes up. How far apart are you willing to let those get, and still be satisfied. There are the On-Axis, 30 degree off-axis, and 60 degree off-axis response lines. All Mids and all Tweeter will diverge like this at the high end, the question is how far are we willing to let them diverge before we decide it is too far? Only you can decide.
If you think it does meet your needs, and it is compatible with your assumed crossover points and slopes, then that aspect is taken care of.
Now we need to decide how we are going to handle the nasty peak at 3khz for the Madisound woofer you selected. So, how are you going to do that?
Steve (who wants to help, but isn't in a position to give it all away)/bluewizard
http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/Midrange/Specs sheet MDM55.pdf
Compare it to the Frequency response graphs for your woofer and tweeter. It has a resonance of 280hz and a claimed response from 250 to 6500.
In my limited estimation, the MDM55 is good (has a realistic working range) from 800hz to 900hz on the low end, and on the high end, 2000hz to 3000hz, but it could be stretched up to 4000hz.
Notice on the Frequency Response on the bottom right hand side of the Tech Sheet I linked to. You see a BOLD line for the 0 degree on-axis response, and you see two fainter lines for the 30 degree and 60 degree off-axis response. You could push this Mid up to 5000 hz, but notice the off-axis line dropping farther away from the on-axis. You want to stay away from that area as much as possible. So, if you can tolerate -5db or -6db loss of sound 30 degrees off center from the speaker, then fine, you can go as high as 5khz. But it's better in the 2khz to 3khz range, and just tolerable in up to 4khz. In my very limited opinion.
So, does that fit your other speakers???
Woofer - Seas L22RN4X/P
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1208.pdf?osCsid=cff160d6c1aad3b6df61e44ec1afc22b
Tweeter - 29TAF/W (6 ohm)
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/h1322.pdf
Notice again, the tweeter frequecy response graph has three lines on it that move farther apart as the frequency goes up. How far apart are you willing to let those get, and still be satisfied. There are the On-Axis, 30 degree off-axis, and 60 degree off-axis response lines. All Mids and all Tweeter will diverge like this at the high end, the question is how far are we willing to let them diverge before we decide it is too far? Only you can decide.
If you think it does meet your needs, and it is compatible with your assumed crossover points and slopes, then that aspect is taken care of.
Now we need to decide how we are going to handle the nasty peak at 3khz for the Madisound woofer you selected. So, how are you going to do that?
Steve (who wants to help, but isn't in a position to give it all away)/bluewizard
The more you talk about that nasty peak on the woofer I chose, the more it seems I should choose another lol. Any suggestions based on my criteria?
Usher and HiVi make some Kevlar cone woofers. They have a high peak but not the break-up of metal cones, that can be dealt with by simply crossing over low enough. Even the break up around 7khz in the Dayton is not a problem if you crossover at 800hz or below.
As you should see by now, picking speakers is not an easy task, again, I suggest as others have, that you review the existing designs that have been linked to and copy them. The speakers are selected to match, the crossovers are designed to match the speakers, and the precisely designed cabinets pull the whole thing together.
Keep in mind, that choosing the speakers is merely the first part. Pulling it all together with a good cabinet and crossover design, is far harder than picking the speakers.
We've demonstrated the factors that we are considering when we pick a speaker combination. Independent of the rated frequency response, you need to have the impedance and frequency response graphs to tell you what a speaker is really doing, and where the problems are going to be. That has been demonstrated in the examples we have given, now you need to make those evaluations for yourself.
Here is a link to a thread started by ShinOBIWAN, who I would safely say is an expert speaker design, as his design will show, and read what he said. Even he struggles endlessly, running around in circles, trying to come up with the right combination of speakers.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93218
So the point is, you can't just pick 3 cool speakers, you have to look at the specs and determine if there is a realistic chance of them working together. And you have to look at the specs to determine if they are any trouble spots. If you are not able to deal with 'trouble', as in complex crossover designs, then you need speakers that have the least 'trouble' to them.
If you change one speaker, that effects them all. But for a start, look at some of the existing projects and see what speaker were previously made to work together, and read how they were made to work together. You may not want to exactly copy one of these designs, but you could use them as a starting point.
You originally said you were looking for a 10" 3-way system -
Consider this -
Woodies - 10" 3-way with Goldwood speakers and off the shelf crossovers
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=woodies
But notice the frequency response while good, is not actually flat. If you can live with that, then no problem.
Here is a system based on TWO 8" HiVi Kevlar woofers in a nice tower -
MP-3's
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=MP3s
Here is an 8" 3-way that you could perhaps substitute with a 10" woofer-
The Jubilee's
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Jubilee
These are basic design. But the designs linked to by others are tried and proven designs that have been duplicated many times successfully. Don't count them out. Find one that is close to what you want, and make it work for you.
Otherwise, learn very quickly to evaluate the impedance and frequency response graphs, and find combination that might work together.
For the most part, the Dayton reference series will work together if combined in a reasonable way.
At some point you have to learn and grow, and make sound decision while at the same time remembering that even the best of us struggles with this process.
Happy hunting.
Steve/bluewizard
As you should see by now, picking speakers is not an easy task, again, I suggest as others have, that you review the existing designs that have been linked to and copy them. The speakers are selected to match, the crossovers are designed to match the speakers, and the precisely designed cabinets pull the whole thing together.
Keep in mind, that choosing the speakers is merely the first part. Pulling it all together with a good cabinet and crossover design, is far harder than picking the speakers.
We've demonstrated the factors that we are considering when we pick a speaker combination. Independent of the rated frequency response, you need to have the impedance and frequency response graphs to tell you what a speaker is really doing, and where the problems are going to be. That has been demonstrated in the examples we have given, now you need to make those evaluations for yourself.
Here is a link to a thread started by ShinOBIWAN, who I would safely say is an expert speaker design, as his design will show, and read what he said. Even he struggles endlessly, running around in circles, trying to come up with the right combination of speakers.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93218
So the point is, you can't just pick 3 cool speakers, you have to look at the specs and determine if there is a realistic chance of them working together. And you have to look at the specs to determine if they are any trouble spots. If you are not able to deal with 'trouble', as in complex crossover designs, then you need speakers that have the least 'trouble' to them.
If you change one speaker, that effects them all. But for a start, look at some of the existing projects and see what speaker were previously made to work together, and read how they were made to work together. You may not want to exactly copy one of these designs, but you could use them as a starting point.
You originally said you were looking for a 10" 3-way system -
Consider this -
Woodies - 10" 3-way with Goldwood speakers and off the shelf crossovers
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=woodies
But notice the frequency response while good, is not actually flat. If you can live with that, then no problem.
Here is a system based on TWO 8" HiVi Kevlar woofers in a nice tower -
MP-3's
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=MP3s
Here is an 8" 3-way that you could perhaps substitute with a 10" woofer-
The Jubilee's
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Jubilee
These are basic design. But the designs linked to by others are tried and proven designs that have been duplicated many times successfully. Don't count them out. Find one that is close to what you want, and make it work for you.
Otherwise, learn very quickly to evaluate the impedance and frequency response graphs, and find combination that might work together.
For the most part, the Dayton reference series will work together if combined in a reasonable way.
At some point you have to learn and grow, and make sound decision while at the same time remembering that even the best of us struggles with this process.
Happy hunting.
Steve/bluewizard
Perhaps it would be a good idea to start with a good 2 way. ProAc 2.5 clone comes to mind. If you want to listen to my clones, drop me an email.
It’s just there’s so much more to a 3 way crossover.
It’s just there’s so much more to a 3 way crossover.
Whatever you do, before making a box try to mount the speakers on open baffle (piece of plank wood) and see if you like it. Takes 1 hour and may change your understanding in "sound quality".
well, before selecting these drivers I considered a few things.
First was frequency response, I made sure there was a decent amount of overlap. Second was power handling, the claimed power handling had to be close to the others so as not to overpower one and underpower another etc... And of course, I also wanted drivers that looked nice.
Perhaps I should just give in and use a paper woofer to keep it simple.
First was frequency response, I made sure there was a decent amount of overlap. Second was power handling, the claimed power handling had to be close to the others so as not to overpower one and underpower another etc... And of course, I also wanted drivers that looked nice.
Perhaps I should just give in and use a paper woofer to keep it simple.
Yes, but one of the points I made is that RATED or STATED Frequency Response only tells you whether a speaker is a 'MAYBE'. You can't know until you actually see the Frequency Response and Impedance Graphs if it might be usable. The Graphs tell the real story. Rated response tells you if a speaker is worth looking at, Graphed response tells you whether you can actually use it. Along with a lot of other factors.
Power handling is another tricky thing, and to some extent also depends on the crossovers. As a broad and general guideline, a ratio of 100:50:25 meaning 100watt woofer, with 50 watt midrange, with 25 watt tweeter(or 50w bass, 25w mid, 12w high, etc...). All combining to make a 100 watt rated speaker (or 50w). Again, this isn't absolute, it just gets you in the vicinity and good judgment and experience take it from there.
The bulk of consumed power occurs under 500hz, so Mid and Highs have a much easier job than bass. Of course the farther you push a speaker down in frequency (mid or high), the less power it can handle. Push you Mids down into the bass range, and they probably going to be both electrically and mechanically over powered.
You say you 'should give in', what you should really give in and do is build a speaker system that is tried and proven, like one of the many systems we have linked to. If you really plan to start building speakers, then likely you are going to build 5 to 10 speakers in your lifetime, and learn more and create more with each new model. For now you will learn what you need to know now, buy copying an existing design. Later you will learn more and create more as the need occurs.
Most people don't start out planning to build 5 or 10 speaker systems, but invariably, that is what happens.
Listen to what other people here are telling you, especially Sreten. What he says may be discouraging, but if you want perfection, then you have to commit to a long hard course of study. However, if you are not in a position to demand or expect perfection, with a few basic rules, and some effort, you can achieve 'good' by consumer standards.
Steve/bluewizard
Power handling is another tricky thing, and to some extent also depends on the crossovers. As a broad and general guideline, a ratio of 100:50:25 meaning 100watt woofer, with 50 watt midrange, with 25 watt tweeter(or 50w bass, 25w mid, 12w high, etc...). All combining to make a 100 watt rated speaker (or 50w). Again, this isn't absolute, it just gets you in the vicinity and good judgment and experience take it from there.
The bulk of consumed power occurs under 500hz, so Mid and Highs have a much easier job than bass. Of course the farther you push a speaker down in frequency (mid or high), the less power it can handle. Push you Mids down into the bass range, and they probably going to be both electrically and mechanically over powered.
You say you 'should give in', what you should really give in and do is build a speaker system that is tried and proven, like one of the many systems we have linked to. If you really plan to start building speakers, then likely you are going to build 5 to 10 speakers in your lifetime, and learn more and create more with each new model. For now you will learn what you need to know now, buy copying an existing design. Later you will learn more and create more as the need occurs.
Most people don't start out planning to build 5 or 10 speaker systems, but invariably, that is what happens.
Listen to what other people here are telling you, especially Sreten. What he says may be discouraging, but if you want perfection, then you have to commit to a long hard course of study. However, if you are not in a position to demand or expect perfection, with a few basic rules, and some effort, you can achieve 'good' by consumer standards.
Steve/bluewizard
Steve, I certainly understand what you are saying and appreciate your help but I am not sure that copying an existing design is really what I want to do.
Can you think of any existing designs offhand that may suit what I was describing? Don't worry if the cabinet is not what I was describing, that can always be changed. I am just talking about my needs as far as drivers and crossover.
Can you think of any existing designs offhand that may suit what I was describing? Don't worry if the cabinet is not what I was describing, that can always be changed. I am just talking about my needs as far as drivers and crossover.
godless said:
Hmmm.........
But that is exactly what you need to do if you do not want to keep
going round in circles, or at least base your build on an existing
design or use existing published data in other designs with
simulation tools.
You must simulate the diffraction effects of multibaffle speakers.
FWIW the Goldmund is all style and no substance, its is a fairly
pointless way of adding a sub-50Hz subwoofer to a fairly bog-
standard 2-way design.
Steer clear of most of the designs published on PE, a lot of them
contains errors or are simply wrong, i.e. not the way to do it.
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Daedalus/daedalus.html
Is near your originally stated budget and requirements.
Around 200w per channel maximum I'd say.
The Dayton RS drivers do look good, quotes from Zaph :
bigger and louder : http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323
🙂/sreten.
JBL, Altec, 18Sound, Beyma TAD, BMS, Radian, Emilar, B&C, PHL and RCF to name a few.godless said:
Alright guys, updated!!
This tweeter
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1590
This midrange
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_234_263&products_id=562
This woofer
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1464
Wot you guys think, can I safely say that those can be used together well and I can move on to crossover/cabinet design?
This tweeter
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1590
This midrange
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_234_263&products_id=562
This woofer
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1464
Wot you guys think, can I safely say that those can be used together well and I can move on to crossover/cabinet design?
Well, the woofer & tweeter would make a good 2-way, but I'd prefer a woofer that went lower. If you'd read any of the links provided, you may have noticed that that kind of mid-range unit isn't popular around here. I think you've still got a lot of reading to do...
That woofer can actually be used as a midrange. It’s a good choice for high quality 2-way mid size cabinet design. It doesn’t go low at all.
Are you limited to the size in the woofer? Bigger they are, lower they go (in most cases), more air they move.
BW and Steren, I say he’s hell bent on building the system by himself. Let him. We all have a learning curve and we all made mistakes then we started. Some people will not recognize the mistake until it’s made. With a bit of luck it may actually sound ok.
After all, how hard is it to outperform a commercial speaker system from Best Buy?
Are you limited to the size in the woofer? Bigger they are, lower they go (in most cases), more air they move.
BW and Steren, I say he’s hell bent on building the system by himself. Let him. We all have a learning curve and we all made mistakes then we started. Some people will not recognize the mistake until it’s made. With a bit of luck it may actually sound ok.
After all, how hard is it to outperform a commercial speaker system from Best Buy?
Like the OP, I too want to build a pair of speakers.
I have all the woodworking equipment required so the cabinet for me is the easy part. My current speakers are some ESL 57;s which I love.
As part of my learning about audio I really would like to build a pair of speakers. These would not be my every day speakers, but naturally they need to sound great.
A major problem I have found is that there is so little info on how the various speaker designs sound/compare to commercial offerings. Is there anywhere that such info can be found?
Fran
I have all the woodworking equipment required so the cabinet for me is the easy part. My current speakers are some ESL 57;s which I love.
As part of my learning about audio I really would like to build a pair of speakers. These would not be my every day speakers, but naturally they need to sound great.
A major problem I have found is that there is so little info on how the various speaker designs sound/compare to commercial offerings. Is there anywhere that such info can be found?
Fran
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