That seems a pretty reasonable combination.
If you want to consider a larger woofer, consider the
Seas P21RF/P (H511) 8" Poly Cone
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=834
Seas P21RF/P (H511) Spec Sheet
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H511.pdf
The speaker listed above is normally over US$80, but is currently on sale for $69.
It does have a peak at about 8khz but I think that is high enough to not be a problem. I'm assuming you are going to crossover Low/Mid at between 500hz and 1khz (best choice probably 800hz).
I think about the best you can do on a Mid/High crossover is about 4khz.
There are crossover calculators on the internet, for example -
ApICS - Filter Design -
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
To make your crossovers more precise, don't use a generic 8 ohms, look at the frequency response and impedance graphs and select the speakers exact impedance at the crossover point.
Note the Filter design page linked to above also has the ability to calculate Zobel Networks, and L-Pad resistor dividers.
Here is additional information on Crossovers -
http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm
Here is an expanded description of crossover design from Elliot Sound -
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
As far as the low end response on either of these speakers, it will improve with a properly designed cabinet. For best results you will need to model your cabinets in various sizes using some type of program like Speaker Workshop or WinISD. Try both vented and sealed cabinets of various sizes to see which works best. You should be able to get good response down near 50hz which about the best you can expect from a small speaker.
I believe both these programs will to an extent model crossovers too.
WinISD - Linear Team -
http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd
Speaker Workshop -
http://www.speakerworkshop.com/
Speaker Workshop Tutorial (you can also download a tutorial from Speaker Workshop) -
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/SWtutorial.html
Speaker Workshop Discussion Group -
http://www.speakerworkshop.com/forum/index.php
Additional links-
FRD Consortium (Frequency Respond Data Consortium)-
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm
contains an assortment of useful tools and information.
Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software-
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbagby.html
Mostly Excel Spread Sheets.
ARTA (Audio Measurement and Analysis) Software -
http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/
comprised of -
ARTA - program for the impulse response measurement and for real-time spectrum analysis and frequency response measurements.
STEPS - program for frequency response measurements with stepped-sine excitation.
LIMP - program for the loudspeaker impedance measurement and loudspeaker parameters estimation.
So...now comes the easy part. (He said sarcastically.)
Steve/bluewizard
If you want to consider a larger woofer, consider the
Seas P21RF/P (H511) 8" Poly Cone
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=834
Seas P21RF/P (H511) Spec Sheet
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H511.pdf
The speaker listed above is normally over US$80, but is currently on sale for $69.
It does have a peak at about 8khz but I think that is high enough to not be a problem. I'm assuming you are going to crossover Low/Mid at between 500hz and 1khz (best choice probably 800hz).
I think about the best you can do on a Mid/High crossover is about 4khz.
There are crossover calculators on the internet, for example -
ApICS - Filter Design -
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
To make your crossovers more precise, don't use a generic 8 ohms, look at the frequency response and impedance graphs and select the speakers exact impedance at the crossover point.
Note the Filter design page linked to above also has the ability to calculate Zobel Networks, and L-Pad resistor dividers.
Here is additional information on Crossovers -
http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm
Here is an expanded description of crossover design from Elliot Sound -
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
As far as the low end response on either of these speakers, it will improve with a properly designed cabinet. For best results you will need to model your cabinets in various sizes using some type of program like Speaker Workshop or WinISD. Try both vented and sealed cabinets of various sizes to see which works best. You should be able to get good response down near 50hz which about the best you can expect from a small speaker.
I believe both these programs will to an extent model crossovers too.
WinISD - Linear Team -
http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd
Speaker Workshop -
http://www.speakerworkshop.com/
Speaker Workshop Tutorial (you can also download a tutorial from Speaker Workshop) -
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/SWtutorial.html
Speaker Workshop Discussion Group -
http://www.speakerworkshop.com/forum/index.php
Additional links-
FRD Consortium (Frequency Respond Data Consortium)-
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm
contains an assortment of useful tools and information.
Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software-
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbagby.html
Mostly Excel Spread Sheets.
ARTA (Audio Measurement and Analysis) Software -
http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/
comprised of -
ARTA - program for the impulse response measurement and for real-time spectrum analysis and frequency response measurements.
STEPS - program for frequency response measurements with stepped-sine excitation.
LIMP - program for the loudspeaker impedance measurement and loudspeaker parameters estimation.
So...now comes the easy part. (He said sarcastically.)
Steve/bluewizard
Thanks Sreten - in fact many thanks!
Is there one in particular that you would recommend? One requirement is that it must work with relatively low powered valve amps, say 10WPC and it should sound good both a low levels as well as high.
Any ideas? would be most grateful for advice here. I have heard some audioplan kontrast that I thought were great and also at a different level, the rogers LS3/5a too.
Fran
Is there one in particular that you would recommend? One requirement is that it must work with relatively low powered valve amps, say 10WPC and it should sound good both a low levels as well as high.
Any ideas? would be most grateful for advice here. I have heard some audioplan kontrast that I thought were great and also at a different level, the rogers LS3/5a too.
Fran
woodturner-fran said:
Hi,
Hard to answer without size, budget and efficiency constraints.
What I'd build with only 10W on tap and the fact I like bass would
likely not be as good in the midrange as a smaller speaker, all good
design is choosing the right set of compromises for yourself. Small
speakers have decent cabinet performance almost by default.
The full range forum for example would sugest something entirely
different than I would from my experience. The suggestions would
vary from different and worthwhile to what I'd consider rubbish .....
🙂/sreten.
godless said:
Hi,
They can be used together but they are not a good combination.
You do not choose drivers and then move on to crossover / cabinet
design, the whole thing is an interactive process requiring the
assessment of the whole package in considering the details.
If you must do something different than may attract some interest
(and therefore help) from other DIYers then perhaps :
tweeter
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8190
midrange
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-848
bass
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-366
Though I admit I do not know much about the ribbon, the TB is
a driver than can work with a ribbons higher crossover point.
🙂/sreten.
Godless in jersey hmmmmm
What's wrong with building a tried and true? I'm happy to say I'm a pretty okay amateur speaker designer, but 'cool' drivers are a hard pill to swallow, mostly because they're generally more finnicky. "Not Paper" means there's a lot of the best drivers disqualified, paper is an excellent material for loudspeaker cones. and not all paper is the same. Feastrex uses some very fancy japanese paper that's more like cloth, and there's a woven pattern in the fostex ff series paper as well.
That woofer and mid would probably do well with a tiny supertweeter like an aura nt1 or the 5/8" from dayton. Both perform well. The morel is not my style however, an additional crossover to make a 3 way where the mid only covers one maybe two octaves....
I wish you luck, and will reiterate what most of these posters have said- build a tried and true design like one from zaphaudio (not parts express), gr research has some good looking kits.
If you want to do 'true' diy, be prepared to invest more in tools and test gear than the parts for the first set you build, not to mention, a TON of time to learn about speakers. Better to build something to get your feet wet, and absorb a lot about speakers by ordering the vance dickason book (don't let the 'cookbook' title throw you, it's a great resource) and reading a bunch of threads here. The dickason 6th edition is on clearance at madisound.
What's wrong with building a tried and true? I'm happy to say I'm a pretty okay amateur speaker designer, but 'cool' drivers are a hard pill to swallow, mostly because they're generally more finnicky. "Not Paper" means there's a lot of the best drivers disqualified, paper is an excellent material for loudspeaker cones. and not all paper is the same. Feastrex uses some very fancy japanese paper that's more like cloth, and there's a woven pattern in the fostex ff series paper as well.
That woofer and mid would probably do well with a tiny supertweeter like an aura nt1 or the 5/8" from dayton. Both perform well. The morel is not my style however, an additional crossover to make a 3 way where the mid only covers one maybe two octaves....
I wish you luck, and will reiterate what most of these posters have said- build a tried and true design like one from zaphaudio (not parts express), gr research has some good looking kits.
If you want to do 'true' diy, be prepared to invest more in tools and test gear than the parts for the first set you build, not to mention, a TON of time to learn about speakers. Better to build something to get your feet wet, and absorb a lot about speakers by ordering the vance dickason book (don't let the 'cookbook' title throw you, it's a great resource) and reading a bunch of threads here. The dickason 6th edition is on clearance at madisound.
I know my question is hard to answer ?(and probably unfair too)!!
Yep, if I went for something like 10WPC on tap, then I can drive it with a few different amps I have here. Cost - well the cabinets would be free, so it would be down to drivers etc. I dunno, suppose a few hundred euro for the drivers and crossovers.
I don't often listen at high volume, so I need something that sounds good at lower levels. The quads are a good example of this.
I want bass - but at the level that you would get out of a pair of quads would be AOK. No harshness either.
I looked at something like the aluminium MTM on the zaph site maybe?
Fran
Yep, if I went for something like 10WPC on tap, then I can drive it with a few different amps I have here. Cost - well the cabinets would be free, so it would be down to drivers etc. I dunno, suppose a few hundred euro for the drivers and crossovers.
I don't often listen at high volume, so I need something that sounds good at lower levels. The quads are a good example of this.
I want bass - but at the level that you would get out of a pair of quads would be AOK. No harshness either.
I looked at something like the aluminium MTM on the zaph site maybe?
Fran
Hi Fran,
I mounted my Jordans in the LS3/5A boxes - a more polite sound (less dynamic) than the Rogers - maybe need some tweeter to help out at top end & some bass boost?
Has anyone tried these enclosures - 3d spiral Horns? http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~hanbei/eng-intro.html
Looks like an interesting build & a way to keep the boxes small while gaining the benefit of something like a Transmission Line speaker - but how do they sound?
As you can see these speakers use Full Range drivers so I wonder would you be interested in these Fran with a Jordan drive?
I mounted my Jordans in the LS3/5A boxes - a more polite sound (less dynamic) than the Rogers - maybe need some tweeter to help out at top end & some bass boost?
Has anyone tried these enclosures - 3d spiral Horns? http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~hanbei/eng-intro.html
Looks like an interesting build & a way to keep the boxes small while gaining the benefit of something like a Transmission Line speaker - but how do they sound?
As you can see these speakers use Full Range drivers so I wonder would you be interested in these Fran with a Jordan drive?
They look really interesting. Some site that - huge amount of work in there.
Something like that would fit the bill nicely - and the drivers don't seem to expensive either.
Would the jordans be suitable for it (speaking form complete ignorance of them!!).
Fran
Something like that would fit the bill nicely - and the drivers don't seem to expensive either.
Would the jordans be suitable for it (speaking form complete ignorance of them!!).
Fran
Fran,
Yea, it's an interesting site, isn't it - as you say, lots of work with build instructions & measurements for a massive number of different boxes/drivers!
All the drivers used in these boxes are full range like the Jordans, so I presume it's probable, he just doesn't have any builds using a Jordan.
I have emailed him about using the Jordans!
There are other interesting Jordan designs that I'll dig out if you're interested & we could decide on the best/most suitable!
La Feile Padraig!
Yea, it's an interesting site, isn't it - as you say, lots of work with build instructions & measurements for a massive number of different boxes/drivers!
All the drivers used in these boxes are full range like the Jordans, so I presume it's probable, he just doesn't have any builds using a Jordan.
I have emailed him about using the Jordans!
There are other interesting Jordan designs that I'll dig out if you're interested & we could decide on the best/most suitable!
La Feile Padraig!
Alright guys, I think I have finally worked it out.
Two of these mid-woofers with one of these tweeters as a two way.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-414
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1744
Two of these mid-woofers with one of these tweeters as a two way.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-414
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1744
Hi,
IMO still clueless as well 😉.
Your tweeter link does not work.
The PE and AC specifications do not match.
Without reliable measurements .........
🙂/sreten.
IMO still clueless as well 😉.
Your tweeter link does not work.
The PE and AC specifications do not match.
Without reliable measurements .........
🙂/sreten.
Your getting closer; if you are willing to pay that price for your components.
The next question you need to ask yourself is where, based on the frequency response charts, would you be able to functionally cross over these components?
Have you downloaded any speaker modeling software yet?
Even if you find components that look good on paper, you will still need to model them to make sure other less obvious factors are not causing complications. That will also allow you to try different crossover frequencies and slopes, and to model different sized cabinets.
Steve/bluewizard
The next question you need to ask yourself is where, based on the frequency response charts, would you be able to functionally cross over these components?
Have you downloaded any speaker modeling software yet?
Even if you find components that look good on paper, you will still need to model them to make sure other less obvious factors are not causing complications. That will also allow you to try different crossover frequencies and slopes, and to model different sized cabinets.
Steve/bluewizard
Godles
I know others have tried to steer you in the direction of building some else's design as your first attempt. I would like to second that. Even if you build someone else's small two way speaker that is a well respected design, you will have a reference for your own designs later should you decide to continue the hobby.
Designing speakers, especially XOs is hard and takes not only knowledge but experience both in design and measuring. I have been building speakers for at least 10 years and it probably took me a half dozen designs and two years to be able to consistently get something that sounded OK, and probably 4 years and 10+ designs to where I could design things that sounded good to great consistently.
Many of the DIY designs out there are as good or better than 90% of the commercial offerings, but that is because most of those were done by people with literally decades of experience designing speakers.
Here are the steps I would follow to build a great sounding design once you have selected the drivers. In addition I will talk about some of the tools you would need and the cost.
1. Break in the drivers for at least a couple hours.
2. Measure the T/S parameters for the woofers/mids using either delta compliance or delta mass with a measurement too such as SoundEasy or the woofer tester
3. Looking at the frequency response data from both on axis and off axis measurements (using mfg data) decide on my approximate XO points and from there determine the baffle layout including driver center to center spacing. Also taking into account things like floor bounce for a three way.
4. Using my measured t/s data from step 2 and my baffle layout from step 4 I would design and build a test cabinet which had the proper baffle layout, internal volumes etc.
5. With the drivers mounted in the cabinet I would take a full range of impedance measurements
6. With the drivers mounted in the cabinet I would either:
6.a Measure the frequency response of all the drivers outside using groundplane at my design point with a measurement tool such as SoundEasy, Clio, Praxis, Speaker Workshop etc.
6.b Measure the frequency response of all the drivers inside taking farfield measurements at my design point. Then take nearfield measurements of the woofers/mids and any ports. Once I had this data I would apply baffle diffraction effects to the nearfield data to make sure the low frequencies were right and merge the nearfield data with the farfield. All this with a measurement tool such as SoundEasy, Clio, Praxis, Speaker Workshop etc.
6.c. I might also run distortion measurements of the individual drivers at this time too if someone like Mark K or Zaph hadn't already done this
7. I would import the frequency response and impedance data into a tool like SoundEasy, LspCad, PCD, Speaker Workshop etc. for the XO design.
8. I would reevaluate my XO points/slopes against my measured data (frequency response, distortion etc). Assuming no changes I would design the XO using my measured data. In a normal design I might go through a half dozen or more iterations of the XO, changing topologies, XO points, slopes etc until I was happy with the predicted response, on axis, off axis, and my overall system impedance.
9. Once I had several XO designs which were viable (but with different slopes, XO points etc) I would either build them and listen to them to figure out which I liked best or use something like the XO emulator in SoundEasy or LspCad Pro to compare them.
10. Once I had decided on the final high level XO design I would begin voicing the XO by changing things like baffle step correction a db or two (this almost always needs some tweaking) tweeter levels, adjusting the knee of the individual drivers XO slopes a bit. Whatever it takes to get both the on axis and power response sounding correct. With each iteration of the XO I will usually remeasure to understand the magnitude of my change and to see if it is really better and not just different. I might spend a couple weeks or more designing the XO and another week or two voicing and listening.
11. Once I had the final XO design I would build the actual cabinets and the final XOs. Once both speakers were built I would again listen with the stereo pair to be sure I had the voicing correct.
Remember I have been doing this a while, so my estimates of time are a lot less now than they would have been when I first started. I think I spent 3 months designing the Xos on my first speakers and they still didn't sound that great.
Here are the tools I use, not including woodworking tools
Soundeasy for design and measurements $250
LoudspeakerLab for measurements $300
Woofer tester 3 for t/s measurements $99 (though SE and LspLab will do this too)
Microphone $125
Mic Preamp $99
Baffle Diffraction Simulator free
Unibox for box design
Again, this is a great hobby and I would certainly encourage anyone with an interest to take it up. But in most cases it will take you a lot of time and effort to get to the point where you can design good sounding speakers. Building a well respected design will give you a taste of the hobby while giving you a great sounding speaker for your efforts. If you decide to continue the hobby, you can use that design as a reference to compare your own designs to. BTW, even if you go this route, but try to change their cabinet/baffle layout, you will need XO changes if not a complete redesign.
BTW, I wouldn't use that Arum Cantus woofer if for no other reason than it would be a PITA to flush mount . The peerless tweeter is a good one though....assuming your design makes the most of it.
Good luck,
Regards,
Dennis
I know others have tried to steer you in the direction of building some else's design as your first attempt. I would like to second that. Even if you build someone else's small two way speaker that is a well respected design, you will have a reference for your own designs later should you decide to continue the hobby.
Designing speakers, especially XOs is hard and takes not only knowledge but experience both in design and measuring. I have been building speakers for at least 10 years and it probably took me a half dozen designs and two years to be able to consistently get something that sounded OK, and probably 4 years and 10+ designs to where I could design things that sounded good to great consistently.
Many of the DIY designs out there are as good or better than 90% of the commercial offerings, but that is because most of those were done by people with literally decades of experience designing speakers.
Here are the steps I would follow to build a great sounding design once you have selected the drivers. In addition I will talk about some of the tools you would need and the cost.
1. Break in the drivers for at least a couple hours.
2. Measure the T/S parameters for the woofers/mids using either delta compliance or delta mass with a measurement too such as SoundEasy or the woofer tester
3. Looking at the frequency response data from both on axis and off axis measurements (using mfg data) decide on my approximate XO points and from there determine the baffle layout including driver center to center spacing. Also taking into account things like floor bounce for a three way.
4. Using my measured t/s data from step 2 and my baffle layout from step 4 I would design and build a test cabinet which had the proper baffle layout, internal volumes etc.
5. With the drivers mounted in the cabinet I would take a full range of impedance measurements
6. With the drivers mounted in the cabinet I would either:
6.a Measure the frequency response of all the drivers outside using groundplane at my design point with a measurement tool such as SoundEasy, Clio, Praxis, Speaker Workshop etc.
6.b Measure the frequency response of all the drivers inside taking farfield measurements at my design point. Then take nearfield measurements of the woofers/mids and any ports. Once I had this data I would apply baffle diffraction effects to the nearfield data to make sure the low frequencies were right and merge the nearfield data with the farfield. All this with a measurement tool such as SoundEasy, Clio, Praxis, Speaker Workshop etc.
6.c. I might also run distortion measurements of the individual drivers at this time too if someone like Mark K or Zaph hadn't already done this
7. I would import the frequency response and impedance data into a tool like SoundEasy, LspCad, PCD, Speaker Workshop etc. for the XO design.
8. I would reevaluate my XO points/slopes against my measured data (frequency response, distortion etc). Assuming no changes I would design the XO using my measured data. In a normal design I might go through a half dozen or more iterations of the XO, changing topologies, XO points, slopes etc until I was happy with the predicted response, on axis, off axis, and my overall system impedance.
9. Once I had several XO designs which were viable (but with different slopes, XO points etc) I would either build them and listen to them to figure out which I liked best or use something like the XO emulator in SoundEasy or LspCad Pro to compare them.
10. Once I had decided on the final high level XO design I would begin voicing the XO by changing things like baffle step correction a db or two (this almost always needs some tweaking) tweeter levels, adjusting the knee of the individual drivers XO slopes a bit. Whatever it takes to get both the on axis and power response sounding correct. With each iteration of the XO I will usually remeasure to understand the magnitude of my change and to see if it is really better and not just different. I might spend a couple weeks or more designing the XO and another week or two voicing and listening.
11. Once I had the final XO design I would build the actual cabinets and the final XOs. Once both speakers were built I would again listen with the stereo pair to be sure I had the voicing correct.
Remember I have been doing this a while, so my estimates of time are a lot less now than they would have been when I first started. I think I spent 3 months designing the Xos on my first speakers and they still didn't sound that great.
Here are the tools I use, not including woodworking tools
Soundeasy for design and measurements $250
LoudspeakerLab for measurements $300
Woofer tester 3 for t/s measurements $99 (though SE and LspLab will do this too)
Microphone $125
Mic Preamp $99
Baffle Diffraction Simulator free
Unibox for box design
Again, this is a great hobby and I would certainly encourage anyone with an interest to take it up. But in most cases it will take you a lot of time and effort to get to the point where you can design good sounding speakers. Building a well respected design will give you a taste of the hobby while giving you a great sounding speaker for your efforts. If you decide to continue the hobby, you can use that design as a reference to compare your own designs to. BTW, even if you go this route, but try to change their cabinet/baffle layout, you will need XO changes if not a complete redesign.
BTW, I wouldn't use that Arum Cantus woofer if for no other reason than it would be a PITA to flush mount . The peerless tweeter is a good one though....assuming your design makes the most of it.
Good luck,
Regards,
Dennis
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