what about new faital 12PR320?
It´s getting used in "Mezzo Clapmaos" of Humble Hifi
Mezzo Calpamos - Sneak Preview - Hanna Paulsberg Concept - YouTube
and also in Troels new Faital 3way
Faital-3WC
Have also heard good things here in the forum as well about this driver
It´s getting used in "Mezzo Clapmaos" of Humble Hifi
Mezzo Calpamos - Sneak Preview - Hanna Paulsberg Concept - YouTube
and also in Troels new Faital 3way
Faital-3WC
Have also heard good things here in the forum as well about this driver
PHL 4531 is also a great drivers. It´s getting used in the Achenbach Trinity.
Measurments are available here:
https://lsv-achenbach.de/images/lautsprecher/test/kt_test_phl_4530-1.jpg
https://lsv-achenbach.de/images/lautsprecher/test/kt_test_phl_4530-2.jpg
I am using the PHL 4021 which has lower fs and higher moving mass and is better as subwoofer. The phl 4531 is better as midbass.
Anyway measurements of 4021 are available here:
http://lsv-achenbach.de/shop/images/kt_test_phl-b30-4021.jpg
Measurments are available here:
https://lsv-achenbach.de/images/lautsprecher/test/kt_test_phl_4530-1.jpg
https://lsv-achenbach.de/images/lautsprecher/test/kt_test_phl_4530-2.jpg
I am using the PHL 4021 which has lower fs and higher moving mass and is better as subwoofer. The phl 4531 is better as midbass.
Anyway measurements of 4021 are available here:
http://lsv-achenbach.de/shop/images/kt_test_phl-b30-4021.jpg
I think things are what they are, for example even if some person on the street says he is the president, but in reality if he lives only the streets and is not even allowed to the goverment buildings, do you really just blindly believe the paper he himself printed, in which he is claiming he is the president?
Ok then I'll make a paper in which it says you owe me 10000 dollars. It says right here in the paper, seems legit.
Ten years ago I built a real SUBwoofer that goes to 12hz so that the apartment windows and thin walls are shaking at that frequency, so if a 12NSW600 is a subwoofer then I guess it's a tweeter too with that logic.
With a long port you can get still some output at 25hz but it does not make it a subwoofer. What it is, it's a woofer with some mid bass capabilities. Very similar to AE 12TDX, their frequency response is almost identical under 300hz.
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Ok, back to the topic. While measuring the woofers, I’ve learned more all the time and noticed that the distortion results are vastly different depending how much dampening material is inside and outside the enclosure, in the room right next to the enclosure and all around it, including the floor area between the microphone and the speaker.
And the required amounts are not small. I first put half a cubic meter of construction insulation wool right next to the enclosure, it helped a lot, the distortion was reduced. Then 1 cubic meter, still much better, eventually ending up with 2 m3 covering all sides.
I noticed an identical problem with the enclosure, if the enclosure is too small or if there are internal walls within 5 cm of the driver, the distortion goes up on some areas. Also if the enclosure is not fully filled, it’s also a problem, even if the enclosure dimensions and shapes are made so that the internal standing waves are low.
I don’t think most of the people who measure these at home know this, I certainly didn’t before. Meaning, different woofer distortion measurements over the net made in different conditions are not comparable at all. Even here in my case, the TD12X will show some a bit different results now that I have yet increased the amount of wool in the vicinity of the enclosure plus changed the enclosure to a different one completely.
This is why I measured the Acoustic Elegance TD12X again (the winner of the previous round) against the two new ones so that the conditions are identical for all three and the best one can be found without confusion.
Lastly, like I have said before, the db levels over the frequency band must always be equalized before the measurement. If the one driver is less sensitive than others, then of course in real life you need to turn it louder to compensate, again increasing the distortion.
The second round results are measured at the same level as last time, a bit over 100db. For this round, I also modified and remeasured the 18sound by coating the backside of it's cone with self made 'anti resonant paste', because I wanted to see if I can make it sound more neutral on the low mid range area which is very pronounced. It really helped only little bit, flattening the frequency response slightly and reducing the overall distortion about 15% which is not much when you compare how much is still behind AE. But, it was a fun experiment and the sound did improve a tad, so not bad.
Oberton 12NSW600 8ohm
18sound_12NTLW3500 (diy coated cone) 8 ohm
Acoustic Elegance TD12X Apollo option 8ohm
BMS 12N630 8 ohm
And the required amounts are not small. I first put half a cubic meter of construction insulation wool right next to the enclosure, it helped a lot, the distortion was reduced. Then 1 cubic meter, still much better, eventually ending up with 2 m3 covering all sides.
I noticed an identical problem with the enclosure, if the enclosure is too small or if there are internal walls within 5 cm of the driver, the distortion goes up on some areas. Also if the enclosure is not fully filled, it’s also a problem, even if the enclosure dimensions and shapes are made so that the internal standing waves are low.
I don’t think most of the people who measure these at home know this, I certainly didn’t before. Meaning, different woofer distortion measurements over the net made in different conditions are not comparable at all. Even here in my case, the TD12X will show some a bit different results now that I have yet increased the amount of wool in the vicinity of the enclosure plus changed the enclosure to a different one completely.
This is why I measured the Acoustic Elegance TD12X again (the winner of the previous round) against the two new ones so that the conditions are identical for all three and the best one can be found without confusion.
Lastly, like I have said before, the db levels over the frequency band must always be equalized before the measurement. If the one driver is less sensitive than others, then of course in real life you need to turn it louder to compensate, again increasing the distortion.
The second round results are measured at the same level as last time, a bit over 100db. For this round, I also modified and remeasured the 18sound by coating the backside of it's cone with self made 'anti resonant paste', because I wanted to see if I can make it sound more neutral on the low mid range area which is very pronounced. It really helped only little bit, flattening the frequency response slightly and reducing the overall distortion about 15% which is not much when you compare how much is still behind AE. But, it was a fun experiment and the sound did improve a tad, so not bad.
Oberton 12NSW600 8ohm
18sound_12NTLW3500 (diy coated cone) 8 ohm
Acoustic Elegance TD12X Apollo option 8ohm
BMS 12N630 8 ohm
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After this measurement it became clear that for my application, the Acoustic Elegance has the lowest distortion, if you look at the 3rd harmonic (yellow line) on my 50-150 hz target area.
From all the drivers I measured, Oberton is the second best and it's a great option for people who are budget minded, live in Europe but still want to have a good sound. Like I said earlier it has an almost identical frequency response to the AE and it's quite flat.
Oberton also actually had the same or slightly lower 2nd order (red line) distortion at 50 - 200 hz than AE.
In free air Oberton also does not bottom out, I tried. AE does like most drivers do, so it's not a woofer for careless people. Oberton also has a bigger voice coil and judging by the extra sounds that come from the back of it, it probably has some kind of forced cooling so there is less power compression when played all day at the max volume compared to AE. It seems it can take quite a punishment. But not as much as the 18 Sound with it's four big voice coils, that is the number one power handling monster!
Bad side with the 18sound is that the frequency response shoots up above 200hz so it needs some EQ to reduce the levels there to sound good.
AE voice coil is quite small in diameter compared to others, but they have, according to the manufacturer used a very high temperature glue and other parts plus all the aluminum that conducts heat away, so for that voice coil size they are probably quite durable. So far I haven't been able to break mine.
At summer I will have some big parties so that will be the ultimate test.
Pair of Oberton costs about 530€ including postage in Europe.
Pair of AE TD12X(with apollo option) plus postage plus customs payments, cost me few years ago 1300€.
In america, they are of course much cheaper since there is no expensive overseas travel and no customs.
The biggest difference between these two is that AE is designed to play to double higher frequencies than Oberton, so it also works well as a lower mid range in a 2 way speaker. Especially the TD12M, which can do over 1 khz just fine.
I noticed some of you have in last days put some new suggestions, but let's face it, it's very unlikely that some couple of hundred euro driver would outperform the AE when just focusing on the low distortion. So me buying more and more some non-high end drivers to test will probably waste my time and money. So what I did a week ago, I finished my quest and ordered 16pcs of TD12X woofers from AE to upgrade my system. I will have eight of them each side on top of each other = about 2.5 meters high speakers. Should be enough
It's not just about the SPL in my case though, with so many drivers I can turn the individual driver volume down which reduces distortion and makes the sound more natural. I have tested this already by starting with just 1 driver, then 2 and at the moment I have four in one enclosure, no doubt eight will still improve the experience as the jump from two to four was significant too.
From all the drivers I measured, Oberton is the second best and it's a great option for people who are budget minded, live in Europe but still want to have a good sound. Like I said earlier it has an almost identical frequency response to the AE and it's quite flat.
Oberton also actually had the same or slightly lower 2nd order (red line) distortion at 50 - 200 hz than AE.
In free air Oberton also does not bottom out, I tried. AE does like most drivers do, so it's not a woofer for careless people. Oberton also has a bigger voice coil and judging by the extra sounds that come from the back of it, it probably has some kind of forced cooling so there is less power compression when played all day at the max volume compared to AE. It seems it can take quite a punishment. But not as much as the 18 Sound with it's four big voice coils, that is the number one power handling monster!
Bad side with the 18sound is that the frequency response shoots up above 200hz so it needs some EQ to reduce the levels there to sound good.
AE voice coil is quite small in diameter compared to others, but they have, according to the manufacturer used a very high temperature glue and other parts plus all the aluminum that conducts heat away, so for that voice coil size they are probably quite durable. So far I haven't been able to break mine.
At summer I will have some big parties so that will be the ultimate test.Pair of Oberton costs about 530€ including postage in Europe.
Pair of AE TD12X(with apollo option) plus postage plus customs payments, cost me few years ago 1300€.
In america, they are of course much cheaper since there is no expensive overseas travel and no customs.
The biggest difference between these two is that AE is designed to play to double higher frequencies than Oberton, so it also works well as a lower mid range in a 2 way speaker. Especially the TD12M, which can do over 1 khz just fine.
I noticed some of you have in last days put some new suggestions, but let's face it, it's very unlikely that some couple of hundred euro driver would outperform the AE when just focusing on the low distortion. So me buying more and more some non-high end drivers to test will probably waste my time and money. So what I did a week ago, I finished my quest and ordered 16pcs of TD12X woofers from AE to upgrade my system. I will have eight of them each side on top of each other = about 2.5 meters high speakers. Should be enough
It's not just about the SPL in my case though, with so many drivers I can turn the individual driver volume down which reduces distortion and makes the sound more natural. I have tested this already by starting with just 1 driver, then 2 and at the moment I have four in one enclosure, no doubt eight will still improve the experience as the jump from two to four was significant too.
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True, I don't think there has been much comparisons of these available.
It was also interesting to notice, how my listening opinion seemed to correlate with the amount of 3rd order harmonic distortion amount. Especially I heard it in simple frequency sweeps.
To avoid any bias, I always first listened and formed an opinion and after that did the measurements.
In any case there always will be some new drivers coming over time and even if I'm personally now set for some years with the AE, somebody else interested in the subject can always purchase one TD12X and use it as a reference for this frequency area when doing comparisons. Just make sure there is enough damping wool around, or otherwise the differences are diluted and all the drivers seems similar in measurements.
I know some people use a bunch of 15" woofers (as I did in the past too) but my experience of that is that they often are just a little bit too big for detailed mid bass and on the other hand 10 inchers are usually struggling to give enough output for me which is not good for the sound either.
I built one speakers using also the Acoustic Elegance TD18H+ and while that is a very nice sounding driver even on the midrange in 18" driver category, the mid bass on that was not even near what the 12" drivers do.
In that case I at first didn't know what to do, since I really wanted more 'rhythm impact' from it, then finally I figured to use an extremely short reflex port which helped a lot. There are some downsides to the short port, but now it's quite musical and usable, when I sometimes take those speakers with me to some parties away from home.
It was also interesting to notice, how my listening opinion seemed to correlate with the amount of 3rd order harmonic distortion amount. Especially I heard it in simple frequency sweeps.
To avoid any bias, I always first listened and formed an opinion and after that did the measurements.
In any case there always will be some new drivers coming over time and even if I'm personally now set for some years with the AE, somebody else interested in the subject can always purchase one TD12X and use it as a reference for this frequency area when doing comparisons. Just make sure there is enough damping wool around, or otherwise the differences are diluted and all the drivers seems similar in measurements.
I know some people use a bunch of 15" woofers (as I did in the past too) but my experience of that is that they often are just a little bit too big for detailed mid bass and on the other hand 10 inchers are usually struggling to give enough output for me which is not good for the sound either.
I built one speakers using also the Acoustic Elegance TD18H+ and while that is a very nice sounding driver even on the midrange in 18" driver category, the mid bass on that was not even near what the 12" drivers do.
In that case I at first didn't know what to do, since I really wanted more 'rhythm impact' from it, then finally I figured to use an extremely short reflex port which helped a lot. There are some downsides to the short port, but now it's quite musical and usable, when I sometimes take those speakers with me to some parties away from home.
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Here are the prototypes I built and am using right now. For a lot more rigidity and less standing waves inside, they are almost cylinder shaped, multi angle(for looks) enclosures. I used to build some box shaped enclosures but this is so much better for this kind of big speakers.
With wheels they are 135 cm high & 68 cm outer diameter. A bit smaller would work also just fine, for example 60cm.
On the left 2 pcs TD12X, and 2 pcs TD12M, on the right 4 pcs 18sound 12NTLW3500. Soon they all will be AE.
Internally they are divided in two parts, two upper and two lower woofers are in separate compartments, with the dividing wall angled one side higher than other to reduce standing waves between the ends of the enclosure. Each compartment has one port on the back, 20 cm in diameter and 20 cm long too. That size is quite spot on and works slightly better than 2 ports which I tried earlier too. In my quite big living room, with the room gain the response goes to 27hz at the 0db point, right below that it it dives very sharply down. Yes, a subwoofer would be required..
With wheels they are 135 cm high & 68 cm outer diameter. A bit smaller would work also just fine, for example 60cm.
On the left 2 pcs TD12X, and 2 pcs TD12M, on the right 4 pcs 18sound 12NTLW3500. Soon they all will be AE.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Internally they are divided in two parts, two upper and two lower woofers are in separate compartments, with the dividing wall angled one side higher than other to reduce standing waves between the ends of the enclosure. Each compartment has one port on the back, 20 cm in diameter and 20 cm long too. That size is quite spot on and works slightly better than 2 ports which I tried earlier too. In my quite big living room, with the room gain the response goes to 27hz at the 0db point, right below that it it dives very sharply down. Yes, a subwoofer would be required..
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They are quite serious yeah, you could park a car on top of each without problems. Only the wheels under them would collapse.
Yes, on the left not visible in the picture, there is a mid range array with eight pcs of six inch sb17nac35-8, so I could compare the characteristics and the directivity against a traditional 10" point source mid on the right. Ten inches is a good size for a single mid when you really turn it up outside the house, plus I run it quite low, to 150 hz. I already had the Beyma 10" mid bass, so I just used that one for testing. It can take a lot of power too.
I've had this setup for a while now and really the array is great, the sound comes so effortlessly etc. Now I can built the final mid range arrays with more drivers.
Sharp observation about the T34B, since that's what I am using above 3 khz.
It was also interesting to notice how an array mid can be combined with a point source tweeter without any hiccup. I hadn't red about it beforehand, just put it that way and it worked.
Yes, on the left not visible in the picture, there is a mid range array with eight pcs of six inch sb17nac35-8, so I could compare the characteristics and the directivity against a traditional 10" point source mid on the right. Ten inches is a good size for a single mid when you really turn it up outside the house, plus I run it quite low, to 150 hz. I already had the Beyma 10" mid bass, so I just used that one for testing. It can take a lot of power too.
I've had this setup for a while now and really the array is great, the sound comes so effortlessly etc. Now I can built the final mid range arrays with more drivers.
Sharp observation about the T34B, since that's what I am using above 3 khz.
It was also interesting to notice how an array mid can be combined with a point source tweeter without any hiccup. I hadn't red about it beforehand, just put it that way and it worked.
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I skim through a lot of threads on the multi-way forum....
I also have a pair of SB17nac. Definitely can see how an array of them would work well when properly crossed. The T34 is a great tweeter. I bought one for testing and got long term spl's that would fry most hifi tweeters. Very clean.
Also tested the Beyma 8MC500nd. A ton of sound above 150hz in a sealed box. Used a 1000w amp with occasional clipping.
I've been curious about point source tweeters with arrayed mids. The tweeter has always been the perceptual origin of sound in my designs. I'm guessing our hearing makes that kind of an array less of a problem than it might seem on paper.
I also have a pair of SB17nac. Definitely can see how an array of them would work well when properly crossed. The T34 is a great tweeter. I bought one for testing and got long term spl's that would fry most hifi tweeters. Very clean.
Also tested the Beyma 8MC500nd. A ton of sound above 150hz in a sealed box. Used a 1000w amp with occasional clipping.
I've been curious about point source tweeters with arrayed mids. The tweeter has always been the perceptual origin of sound in my designs. I'm guessing our hearing makes that kind of an array less of a problem than it might seem on paper.
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What was a nice surprise, at least with eight of them in array, that between 150 - 3000 hz they needed almost no eq.
Great thread! I'm looking for a bit similar driver than OP. Are you happy with what you found?
I was thinking of trying out BMS coax compression driver in a horn, but I would need a good 10-12" mid-bass for about 80-800 Hz range before crossing to subs. While any BMS coax cd is not exactly cheap, I would not like to put thousands into the woofers. And the coax is a hf and mids in the same point source package, so it's worth two drivers. Also it could go lower, but that would take much larger horn than I currently have room for. I'm going fully active with dsp, it would be nice if 200w per driver would be sufficient.
Given the target frequency range, the woofer doesn't need much xmax or power handling in home use. It would be nice if it would play well with considerably smaller cabinet than 40 litres sealed box. I have read that the BMS coax cds have very good sound quality, so that's the most important factor. Do you have any examples that would be good candidates for such woofers? Or which parameters should I be looking at when considering a driver?
I was thinking of trying out BMS coax compression driver in a horn, but I would need a good 10-12" mid-bass for about 80-800 Hz range before crossing to subs. While any BMS coax cd is not exactly cheap, I would not like to put thousands into the woofers. And the coax is a hf and mids in the same point source package, so it's worth two drivers. Also it could go lower, but that would take much larger horn than I currently have room for. I'm going fully active with dsp, it would be nice if 200w per driver would be sufficient.
Given the target frequency range, the woofer doesn't need much xmax or power handling in home use. It would be nice if it would play well with considerably smaller cabinet than 40 litres sealed box. I have read that the BMS coax cds have very good sound quality, so that's the most important factor. Do you have any examples that would be good candidates for such woofers? Or which parameters should I be looking at when considering a driver?
Sorry for the slow response. No I don't have a frequency response measurement that would have been taken outside without room modes. If I show you some of my measurements with my random room modes it does not benefit you as you don't know what you are looking at.
Best if I just explain to you that AE 12X had the most straight response between 40 and 500hz, 12M was almost the same but had a dip a round 120hz which made midbass slightly less detailed, however it was better for extending midrange way above 1000hz since it's designed for that.
18 sound had too much sensitivity=output around 200hz so that and above it had to be eq:d down.
So from these three the most straight usable frequency response under 1000hz goes to TD12X in my experience.
Best if I just explain to you that AE 12X had the most straight response between 40 and 500hz, 12M was almost the same but had a dip a round 120hz which made midbass slightly less detailed, however it was better for extending midrange way above 1000hz since it's designed for that.
18 sound had too much sensitivity=output around 200hz so that and above it had to be eq:d down.
So from these three the most straight usable frequency response under 1000hz goes to TD12X in my experience.
Don't know your baffle dimensions, what range you intende to use them.
If you have only passive filters.
or if you have eq available, to compensate for the dipole loss down low?
So hard for anyone to give you a proper answer without more info.
You will find some measurements on the web.
Pispeakers.com has some td12s measurements on record.
And Augerpros old drivervault site has measuremnts on the td12m if i remember correct, can likely be dug up through archive.org.
Aespeakers had a forum once, can also be dug up through archive.org, pre 2017?, for some more info.
Buy them? at:
Aespeakers.com.
They also have the OB and LO series, depending on circumstances.
If you are U.S based the prices are not atrocious for what you get i guess.
I've not got much experience with AE's, with the prices, including shipping and import.mfg. wont provide measurements.
And some of the ones i've seen are so so impressive.
I have refrained from buying them, stuck mostly with proven drivers, that are well behaved and well documented (JBL,TAD, Fostex, etc).
Although the praise of AE is rather universal from a subjective standpoint.
And the specs are in a 'niche that is hard to find similar.🙂
I had a pair sitting on the shelf for a few years then decided to build a small top box with them. Yes, I agree.JBL 2206. Very fast, flat, efficient, high power. Probably the best there is.
My open baffle will be 22 inches wide, approximately 56 inches tall...no side panels to speak of (maybe a small curved section on the sides). There will be 2 15's per side, with a waveguide at the top.
Would be using DSP . Based on these specifications do you still think AE TD 15m is a good choice?
Adendum: Just visited the AE website. They also show a series of drivers they call:
" DIPOLE Woofers ", and in their description state they are specifically designed for open baffle use. Wouldn't they be the better option then their TD 15M model ?
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Hi folks,
here in Germany there is Mr. Timmermanns from the Hobby HiFi journal that continue to stress out the importance of the Rms value in Kg/s, that need additionally to be related to Sd in square cm, for 12 inch about 500 - 550 sqcm. This value indicates how good the driver will perform also at low listening levels at home, absolutely pointless for PA drivers that need to start to scream with more than 50 Watt input power. The AE driver has an excellent low value, most of the other drivers including the legendary JBL chassis - there is no Rms value given at all. There are a few drivers made for HiFi with very good Rms values that i know, Sonido, Supravox to mention a few of the few. I have tested the Sonido 12 Inch as a custom build with no whizzer cone in a small closed box with massive PEQ to get some LFE out of it and add in a second attempt some open baffle woofer for the low bass, her some pics
here in Germany there is Mr. Timmermanns from the Hobby HiFi journal that continue to stress out the importance of the Rms value in Kg/s, that need additionally to be related to Sd in square cm, for 12 inch about 500 - 550 sqcm. This value indicates how good the driver will perform also at low listening levels at home, absolutely pointless for PA drivers that need to start to scream with more than 50 Watt input power. The AE driver has an excellent low value, most of the other drivers including the legendary JBL chassis - there is no Rms value given at all. There are a few drivers made for HiFi with very good Rms values that i know, Sonido, Supravox to mention a few of the few. I have tested the Sonido 12 Inch as a custom build with no whizzer cone in a small closed box with massive PEQ to get some LFE out of it and add in a second attempt some open baffle woofer for the low bass, her some pics