After taking a closer look between a coaxial w/ sub versus separate tweeter & mid-range with sub, I am leaning to the 3 separate drivers.
This is what I came up with so far in trying to match up my dimensional requirements for my design and three drivers that would pair well together, I am now leaning to this combination. I'm assuming I should look for similar: Ohms, Sensitivity, Wattage, that overall they have a flat frequency response within the working range and that there is enough frequency overlap for a proper crossover.
This is what I came up with so far in trying to match up my dimensional requirements for my design and three drivers that would pair well together, I am now leaning to this combination. I'm assuming I should look for similar: Ohms, Sensitivity, Wattage, that overall they have a flat frequency response within the working range and that there is enough frequency overlap for a proper crossover.
Those are all excellent drivers, Chris.
Keep in mind that since you're using active crossovers & separate amps for each driver, impedance & sensitivity can be ignored.
If we accept the spec sheets, the 3/4" tweeter might not be the best match for the mid. Recommended range is 3kHz on up. I'd accept that. The mid, OTOH, starts to beam well below 3kHz. So a 3kHz crossover will result in a small directivity blip from a bit below 2kHz to 3kHz. Hence, a larger dome or other type of tweeter that can cross at or close to 2khz would be a better match.
This might not be a big deal. But you may as well start with the best match of drivers. I noticed the d2004 is the cheapest by far of your chosen drivers. Double the tweeter budget & you get into Txtreme & some beryllium domes which have greater detail & dynamics than silk. Bliesma & SB acoustics are the most lauded these days. Some excellent planar and AMT drivers are also available. (I can strongly recommend the Aurum Cantus AST2560 tho my 4 samples are 6~7yo. I can only assume current production remains the same.)
Keep in mind that since you're using active crossovers & separate amps for each driver, impedance & sensitivity can be ignored.
If we accept the spec sheets, the 3/4" tweeter might not be the best match for the mid. Recommended range is 3kHz on up. I'd accept that. The mid, OTOH, starts to beam well below 3kHz. So a 3kHz crossover will result in a small directivity blip from a bit below 2kHz to 3kHz. Hence, a larger dome or other type of tweeter that can cross at or close to 2khz would be a better match.
This might not be a big deal. But you may as well start with the best match of drivers. I noticed the d2004 is the cheapest by far of your chosen drivers. Double the tweeter budget & you get into Txtreme & some beryllium domes which have greater detail & dynamics than silk. Bliesma & SB acoustics are the most lauded these days. Some excellent planar and AMT drivers are also available. (I can strongly recommend the Aurum Cantus AST2560 tho my 4 samples are 6~7yo. I can only assume current production remains the same.)
Thanks Mikessi for the input.
In looking at tweeters, I have to admit I'm a little confused between the frequency response graph and the recommended operating frequency. Even though the D2004/602200 recommends 3000-40000, its graph looks impressively flat until 700hz. Where as the much higher priced Bliesma T34B-4 recommends a range of 1300-40000, even though its graph seems to imply it starts to drop below 3000hz. Am I missing some other piece of information that helps to understand how a particular tweeter will perform? Here are a line up of Tweeters that caught my eye so far.
The SB Acoustics is appealing with performance to price ratio; however, again I'm confused at the recommended frequency response. On the Cut sheet it states "IEC 268-5, high-pass Butterworth, 2600 Hz, 12 dB/oct, yet on SoundImports.eu they state "Recommended cut frequency 400-40000 Hz"
Thanks again,
-Chris
In looking at tweeters, I have to admit I'm a little confused between the frequency response graph and the recommended operating frequency. Even though the D2004/602200 recommends 3000-40000, its graph looks impressively flat until 700hz. Where as the much higher priced Bliesma T34B-4 recommends a range of 1300-40000, even though its graph seems to imply it starts to drop below 3000hz. Am I missing some other piece of information that helps to understand how a particular tweeter will perform? Here are a line up of Tweeters that caught my eye so far.
The SB Acoustics is appealing with performance to price ratio; however, again I'm confused at the recommended frequency response. On the Cut sheet it states "IEC 268-5, high-pass Butterworth, 2600 Hz, 12 dB/oct, yet on SoundImports.eu they state "Recommended cut frequency 400-40000 Hz"
Thanks again,
-Chris
The SB26ADC was tested by quiet a few (oa Troels) and in reality 1000Hz or higher is needed most say. But for that price and size that is quiet impressive, and higher up it stays very clean i think compared to a lot that cost a lot more. Idem with distortion.:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-tweeters.htm
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb26adc-c000-4
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-tweeters.htm
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb26adc-c000-4
Distortion. Even though a tweeter might have 600Hz FS and be flat down to 1kHz, examine the distortion graphs, and you'll find that the vast majority can't go much below 2kHz without distortion rising significantly. That's data rarely included in any mfg spec sheets, which is why independent testing by folks like hificompass, Erin, etc are so important.
Of the tweeters you listed, I've personally used the Seas Millenium & SB29BAC. Both are very good, and the Seas does have excellent distortion down to below 1.5kHz. It has a different character/signature, being a fabric dome vs the beryllium. And very pricey these days. The latter does give a bit more "snap" and detail, tho some don't like it because "too analytical". YMMV.
The Bilesma T34B is more or less the reigning king of dome tweeters with great measurement results in every category. Price to match: CA$750 @ solen
https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/bliesma-t34b-4-beryllium-dome-tweeter
I agree with @waxx that the SBA SB26ADC is a very good tweeter & inexpensive. I've used this one, too.
Distortion and relative flat response is what determine where you cross a tweeter for me. Disortion below -45dB is a good guideline and with flat i mean no more deviation than 3dB from where it's relative flat. That makes the Bliesma less good for me, i would not cross it below 2kHz because of the falling response, but above it's one of the better dome tweeters arround. Only the SB26ADC does it also much cheaper, and goes lower.
And i have to say that i don't like the sharp Berryllium sound, but the Bliesma is ok with that, it's less annoying than with others i heared (i'm nickpicking now, but with such expensive tweetes i may). And if you like that sound (many do), you can disregard that last comment. But for me, the SB26ADC is a no brainer...
And i have to say that i don't like the sharp Berryllium sound, but the Bliesma is ok with that, it's less annoying than with others i heared (i'm nickpicking now, but with such expensive tweetes i may). And if you like that sound (many do), you can disregard that last comment. But for me, the SB26ADC is a no brainer...
Hificompass HD measurements show SB26ADC distortion rising a lot faster below 2kHz, and its Xmax is only 0.6mm vs 3mm for the Bliesma. The falling response of the Bliesma is so smooth that it'd be really easy to integrate/blend with different crossover choices. HFC says it's good to 1.3 kHz. I'd be delighted to try one but agree it's just a bit too pricey.
Thank you both for the advice. So here is my latest system setup. A few Questions remain:
1. Is this 250W/Ch @ 4 Ohms amp overkill for these drivers? Might this risk damage? If not, great, if so, any other recommendations?
2. If in the future, I were to go with a passive crossover, is it OK that the Tweeter has a 93 dB Sensitivity versus the 89 dB of the other two drivers? At this point I know very little about crossover design, but would simply like to know if its an major issue or not.
1. Is this 250W/Ch @ 4 Ohms amp overkill for these drivers? Might this risk damage? If not, great, if so, any other recommendations?
2. If in the future, I were to go with a passive crossover, is it OK that the Tweeter has a 93 dB Sensitivity versus the 89 dB of the other two drivers? At this point I know very little about crossover design, but would simply like to know if its an major issue or not.
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4db difference is not a lot, and easy to adjust in the crosover. There are people who even do that with 20dB differnece, and if you know how to do it right it's not really a problem (but 20dB attenuation is not ideal within a passive crossover also).
The amp is overkill for a tweeter, if you want to use it with a midbass it may be be right. But overkill is not a problem when you're displined with the volume dial. I use also a way to powerfull amp with some tweeters and many active systems do, but if your using the volume dial right it won't cause problems...
The amp is overkill for a tweeter, if you want to use it with a midbass it may be be right. But overkill is not a problem when you're displined with the volume dial. I use also a way to powerfull amp with some tweeters and many active systems do, but if your using the volume dial right it won't cause problems...
I would go for Hypex ncore plateamps with dsp crossovers. They have threeway crossover models with spdif input. The amplifiers in those are good enough for highend use.
Yes, those plateamps are a little more expensive than others but they also sound better.
A WiiM ultra has a sota PEQ and digital volumeregulation through usb or spdif so that is a nobrainer as source.
I have built expensive dsp active 3-way speakers before , using dbx dsp crossovers and crown amplifiers but they are not anywhere nere as good sounding as the fa123 Hypex plateamps.
The OP's choice of miniDSP Flex is a generation newer than the DSP in Hypex plate amps, technically better, tho it may not be audible. It's certainly much better than the dbx crossovers. He's also chosen Hypex nCore amps.
Still, the Hypex plate amps are a viable alternative path. I suggested Hypex plate amps before. They do eliminate much of the active multi-amp wiring mess & the end performance is likely to be the same as with the discrete components. And no question, the Wiim Ultra is a capable streamer preamp with a vast array of useful features. I guess the only downsides are slightly more complex speaker enclosure construction & maybe no Dirac option? Tho Wiim offers their own auto room EQ feature. Wiim is expanding so fast I can see them adding a serious Dirac or audiolense or some other serious room EQ feature soon.
And the disadvantage of plate amps is that they break down (like normal amps) way faster than the speaker will go down, so the speaker get useless if the amp is build in. Even if you use it, I would make a seperate enclosure so if that happens you can use the speakers with other amps.
The Hypex dsp is also not the quality of MiniDSP flex series, the software is buggy and the convertors are not on that high level neighter. So using a MiniDSP with seperate amps is a lot better in my book.
The Hypex dsp is also not the quality of MiniDSP flex series, the software is buggy and the convertors are not on that high level neighter. So using a MiniDSP with seperate amps is a lot better in my book.
Thank you all for the feedback. The amp plate is tempting in regards to having less wires, but the extra level of control the miniDSP seems to offer is appealing and as waxx pointed out, I did have a powered subwoofer in the past where the internal amp stopped working. That internal amp was no longer available and I ended up having to buy an external amp to make it work again.
As for the Wiim Ultra, it does look great, and for such a reasonable price of $329, I think I would play with either:
-Replacing the computer with the Wiim for streaming, and still use the miniDSP HT as the HUB (most direct sound limiting processing/noise)
-or may use the Wiim Ultra as the HUB but still feed it into the miniDSP for my multichannel processing needs (more convenient and versatile hub user experience)
As for the Wiim Ultra, it does look great, and for such a reasonable price of $329, I think I would play with either:
-Replacing the computer with the Wiim for streaming, and still use the miniDSP HT as the HUB (most direct sound limiting processing/noise)
-or may use the Wiim Ultra as the HUB but still feed it into the miniDSP for my multichannel processing needs (more convenient and versatile hub user experience)
I use a MiniDSP flex as hub (but don't watch tv or have a HT), but use my computer and a turntable as source. The Wiim is good if you need a dedicated streamer, but a computer can do that also.
But as hub, i think you can use both, even at the same time if you use the MiniDSP as volume control (it even has a remote). On the digital side it won't matter at all as it's digital. So whatever is the most practical for you to do is right on that. The MiniDSP has a remote, i don't know if the Wiim has it outside your phone. On the other hand, i don't think you can use your phone as remote for the MiniDSP like you can with the Wiim.
But as hub, i think you can use both, even at the same time if you use the MiniDSP as volume control (it even has a remote). On the digital side it won't matter at all as it's digital. So whatever is the most practical for you to do is right on that. The MiniDSP has a remote, i don't know if the Wiim has it outside your phone. On the other hand, i don't think you can use your phone as remote for the MiniDSP like you can with the Wiim.
I recommend the DEQX pre-8. If 8 outputs are not enough you can use 1 per side and have 16 channels; Great if you have 4 subs.
Its true that its an dissadvantage in reability having everything in the same box, but it might be more elegant ( as long as it works )
I think all dac's have that, that is typical LPCM sampling that is used in dacs. And that is good. Internally the Flex (all variations) work in 96kHz, except when useing DIRAC as that is limited to 48kHz.
But that is not an issue, it's stll way beyond the resolution we humans can hear. Why do you think you need above 20kHz, as almost nobody of adult age hears above 15kHz, and a lot even not a lot lower.
But that is not an issue, it's stll way beyond the resolution we humans can hear. Why do you think you need above 20kHz, as almost nobody of adult age hears above 15kHz, and a lot even not a lot lower.