The reset I tried was a last attempt after spending countless hours to get it to run, in vain.
I wonder how you would react if you bought a new car which without warning would get you stuck on the highway, and the dealer told you to get the latest firmware and try again?
Just because some of us are up to speed on these issues and have no problem providing service free of charge to the manufacturer, doesn't mean that the average customer should accept defective merchandise.
Do you realize how stupid this is? Yes, updates are sometimes needed, to correct issues that only happen once in a while and need a large user base to come out, or new features etc. But to get it going in the first place?? It's a cop-out of overloaded service departments.
Jan
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Go on like that but things and times have changed. You did not read the manual and made some errors so I would look at the first one with mixed opinion. The second one I would look into in detail why and what goes wrong. A well informed detailed decription could make clear to you and iFi what is wrong and maybe it is something very simple (it usually is IME).
Just suppose it is an external cause and the device is OK....The way you describe your approach makes one think you don't want to spend a small amount of time to find out what is happening. Just use the ethernet cable and try to make a connection. Do the firmware update of both the Zen and your router stuff if available and retry. If the device is notoriously unreliable or does fail prematurely it sure would have been known (one generally checks that before buying). Maybe it is maybe it isn't. Let's say the device really sounds best of all, then spending 15 minutes to find out what is happening seems worthwhile. Yes I see how stupid this all is, I deal with laymen very often regarding technical issues. When it comes to solving issues with emotions.... Some even pack stuff and send it back while being the cause themselves.
* after firmware update maybe a reset to factory settings can be done. Just to exclude things.
Just suppose it is an external cause and the device is OK....The way you describe your approach makes one think you don't want to spend a small amount of time to find out what is happening. Just use the ethernet cable and try to make a connection. Do the firmware update of both the Zen and your router stuff if available and retry. If the device is notoriously unreliable or does fail prematurely it sure would have been known (one generally checks that before buying). Maybe it is maybe it isn't. Let's say the device really sounds best of all, then spending 15 minutes to find out what is happening seems worthwhile. Yes I see how stupid this all is, I deal with laymen very often regarding technical issues. When it comes to solving issues with emotions.... Some even pack stuff and send it back while being the cause themselves.
* after firmware update maybe a reset to factory settings can be done. Just to exclude things.
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jean-paul: I am not saying the device does not work correctly with the 4.14 kernel. But support for newer external devices is likely affected, e.g. Motu M2/4 support was added around kernel 5.6 by commit ALSA: usb-audio: add implicit fb quirk for MOTU M Series * torvalds/linux@c249177 * GitHub . I doubt this patch was backported to rockchip 4.14 because it does not seem to be in rockchip develop-4.19 History for sound/usb - rockchip-linux/kernel * GitHub
jean-paul - Exactly where in the "manual" you claim was not read would one find solutions to Jan's issues after they were encountered? Where would one find guidance to know if there may be compatibility issues to inform the purchase of the product and potentially avoid the hassle altogether?
Here is the manual
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ZEN-Stream-User-Manual-Ver1.01_ok-1.pdf
Did you mis-type and intend the quick start guide?
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ZEN-Stream-Quick-Start-Guide-2.0.pdf
Maybe it's in the Tech Lowdown... That must contain compatibility guidance, right?
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/iFi_ZenStream_Lowdown_01.pdf
or the Tutorials, perhaps
iFi audio | the Award-Winning Audio Technology Company
the "Connections" section? YES!, finally.
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/endless-connection_03-1.jpeg
No... then it surely must be in the connection 'guide', yes?
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/iFi_Connections_ZENStream-01.png
Well, if it's not in any of the manuals or guides, surely I could find the answer in their support section...
Support / FAQs / Zen Stream
Oh! Here's one that must be helpful.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/is-it-better-to-use-an-ethernet-or-a-wi-fi-connection/
Yes, security is the key factor. OK
And another helpful topic.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/how-do-i-update-the-firmware/
Not only does it not say "how" to do it, it has no guidance re: IF it should be done.
The RTFM response along with berating the person having the issue is the clear answer.
Note - I have quite a number of iFi products and was a very early adopter of most. I chose that route. Many don't, and they expect a working product out of the box along with proper support and/or documentation if it does not. I think that's reasonable. iFi falls short in every single case I've had personally when support was required. As we see, YMMV, but Jan's situation is certainly not unique. I happen to like their products, but I have never recommended one to others without a number of caveats. First caveat is always ... "Prepare to be frustrated at some point".
Here is the manual
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ZEN-Stream-User-Manual-Ver1.01_ok-1.pdf
Did you mis-type and intend the quick start guide?
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ZEN-Stream-Quick-Start-Guide-2.0.pdf
Maybe it's in the Tech Lowdown... That must contain compatibility guidance, right?
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/iFi_ZenStream_Lowdown_01.pdf
or the Tutorials, perhaps
iFi audio | the Award-Winning Audio Technology Company
the "Connections" section? YES!, finally.
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/endless-connection_03-1.jpeg
No... then it surely must be in the connection 'guide', yes?
https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/iFi_Connections_ZENStream-01.png
Well, if it's not in any of the manuals or guides, surely I could find the answer in their support section...
Support / FAQs / Zen Stream
Oh! Here's one that must be helpful.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/is-it-better-to-use-an-ethernet-or-a-wi-fi-connection/
Yes, security is the key factor. OK
And another helpful topic.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/how-do-i-update-the-firmware/
Not only does it not say "how" to do it, it has no guidance re: IF it should be done.
The RTFM response along with berating the person having the issue is the clear answer.
Note - I have quite a number of iFi products and was a very early adopter of most. I chose that route. Many don't, and they expect a working product out of the box along with proper support and/or documentation if it does not. I think that's reasonable. iFi falls short in every single case I've had personally when support was required. As we see, YMMV, but Jan's situation is certainly not unique. I happen to like their products, but I have never recommended one to others without a number of caveats. First caveat is always ... "Prepare to be frustrated at some point".
Mmm, I just reacted to this:
As you seem to refuse to do simple troubleshooting a guy that does troubleshooting sees the point. Can you answer if the device works at all via ethernet? Strong opinions, yes but please check what information you give about your issues. I can not define what is the issue. I have nothing to prove, I just solve technical issues. It is not me having the device or the manual so all that is distilled is out of your words. Fact is that you can do better describing what goes wrong and do some simple tests. Then I can better think of solutions. Maybe you understand this as "prove" but it is about solving the issue as that is the goal to most. It is like that when one wants solutions instead of complaining (I otherwise don't see the point posting this publicly on a forum). Finding solutions and helping out is positive I think. Anyway it seems in vain when people start talking about the tone so I am going outside. Ciao!
As you seem to refuse to do simple troubleshooting a guy that does troubleshooting sees the point. Can you answer if the device works at all via ethernet? Strong opinions, yes but please check what information you give about your issues. I can not define what is the issue. I have nothing to prove, I just solve technical issues. It is not me having the device or the manual so all that is distilled is out of your words. Fact is that you can do better describing what goes wrong and do some simple tests. Then I can better think of solutions. Maybe you understand this as "prove" but it is about solving the issue as that is the goal to most. It is like that when one wants solutions instead of complaining (I otherwise don't see the point posting this publicly on a forum). Finding solutions and helping out is positive I think. Anyway it seems in vain when people start talking about the tone so I am going outside. Ciao!
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Abrasive though he is, JP has a point…….I have yet to connect any audio/video gear to the internet that hasn’t given some sort of fight (including my elac discovery streamer) but once you win (or better yet comply to your devices needs) and the wounds heal everything (knock on wood) usually works without a hitch. Except for my Yamaha RN803 integrated amp with built in streaming, I spent a week trying to get the wi-fi to work on that thing….phone calls/emails to yamaha go unanswered (common problems from what I gather) my solution?……plugged in the Ethernet and 3 years without a hitch!
Moral of my story is I dread connecting anything to wi fi ………. and JP needs social skills counseling! 😀
Moral of my story is I dread connecting anything to wi fi ………. and JP needs social skills counseling! 😀
@ItsAllInMyHead : I do agree, in those short stints that it did work, it sounded absolutely very fine. Maybe that's the reward you earn by going through all the frustrations 😎
Jan
Jan
On many of my sound system projects, there is a line in the specifications that calls for all software to be the latest version. I then go through the process of requiring a clarification asking if they really want the latest version or compatible ones.
My experience has been software for audio is a limited market and once produced is rarely kept up to date. The market is small enough, there is not the money to keep up with all the other bits of the software environment.
There really was a major professional sporting event cancelled a third of the way through play when software supporting the game crashed. It had worked for years until someone decided the host computer should be connected to the internet. The computer then could do the automatic updates. A bit surprising that it ran that long before the important program requested something that crashed the system. More importantly it did not signal the failure to the user in a useful manner.
When software starts getting to multiple man years of labor to produce it, is it reasonable to expect any user to fully understand it? Did even all of the folks working on it understand everything? Was there a single system architect in charge? Was it even possible for such a person to really link all the details?
Why does my cellphone tell me it has to update some resident software several times a week?
Next issue is how do you listen to music? Is it always in the background? Are you listening with undivided attention? Is reliability or fidelity the same for all listening environments?
My suspicion is that streaming off a server does not have the same requirements as primary studious listening. I would not consider a hundred thousand dollar component for background music in a restaurant.
Jan did list budget as a design parameter, will that limit other issues? The added parameter is apparently flawless out of the box performance with his existing environment!
Lots of good suggestions here. But is this a man year problem, or more of a not fully defined issue.
On of my observations is that the job of an engineer is to resolve the definition of the goal. A technician can build a system to meet a well defined goal.
So in short what is the real goal here? As the thread has evolved it seems the original request, although simple, was not fully defined.
My experience has been software for audio is a limited market and once produced is rarely kept up to date. The market is small enough, there is not the money to keep up with all the other bits of the software environment.
There really was a major professional sporting event cancelled a third of the way through play when software supporting the game crashed. It had worked for years until someone decided the host computer should be connected to the internet. The computer then could do the automatic updates. A bit surprising that it ran that long before the important program requested something that crashed the system. More importantly it did not signal the failure to the user in a useful manner.
When software starts getting to multiple man years of labor to produce it, is it reasonable to expect any user to fully understand it? Did even all of the folks working on it understand everything? Was there a single system architect in charge? Was it even possible for such a person to really link all the details?
Why does my cellphone tell me it has to update some resident software several times a week?
Next issue is how do you listen to music? Is it always in the background? Are you listening with undivided attention? Is reliability or fidelity the same for all listening environments?
My suspicion is that streaming off a server does not have the same requirements as primary studious listening. I would not consider a hundred thousand dollar component for background music in a restaurant.
Jan did list budget as a design parameter, will that limit other issues? The added parameter is apparently flawless out of the box performance with his existing environment!
Lots of good suggestions here. But is this a man year problem, or more of a not fully defined issue.
On of my observations is that the job of an engineer is to resolve the definition of the goal. A technician can build a system to meet a well defined goal.
So in short what is the real goal here? As the thread has evolved it seems the original request, although simple, was not fully defined.
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Do you mean like defining "must work with my home wifi flawlessly"? I am afraid no manufacturer would be able to guarantee such feature.
Wifi is an extremely complex technology operated in shared non-dedicated frequency band. It is problematic at many layers of the technological stack, from low-quality hardware to buggy firmware to buggy drivers to noisy environment with lots of interference. Also two parts are at works - the router and the client, both facing the same potential caveats. It's perfectly possible that the same glitchy client would work nice with a different router.
Wifi is an extremely complex technology operated in shared non-dedicated frequency band. It is problematic at many layers of the technological stack, from low-quality hardware to buggy firmware to buggy drivers to noisy environment with lots of interference. Also two parts are at works - the router and the client, both facing the same potential caveats. It's perfectly possible that the same glitchy client would work nice with a different router.
I don't really expect the 'plug it in and it works' to be true. I fully expect some gyrations to go through before it all works together. So no, I don't demand flawless out of the box.
I've done my share of software development, operating system software at 4C on Data General equipment at the time, and real-time air defense missile system software for NATO.
I once had to put my foot down when a colonel demanded error free software. I asked his superior to replace him with someone who knew what he was talking about. So I know the score there.
But what I do expect, even for $ 400, is that after a reasonable amount of fiddling, say an hour or so, it works. And not having to do it all over again every other day.
Jan
I've done my share of software development, operating system software at 4C on Data General equipment at the time, and real-time air defense missile system software for NATO.
I once had to put my foot down when a colonel demanded error free software. I asked his superior to replace him with someone who knew what he was talking about. So I know the score there.
But what I do expect, even for $ 400, is that after a reasonable amount of fiddling, say an hour or so, it works. And not having to do it all over again every other day.
Jan
To be clear, I meant no disrespect to anyone (except perhaps a bit to the company iFi). We all have our "tones" and "styles". I do admit to preferring facts. J-P stated that someone had not read the manual. That, to me, implied that J-P knew:
A. that someone had not read the "manual", and more importantly
B. that a helpful answer could be found in said "manual".
My guess is that J-P themself had not perused much if any of the documentation.
It's clear that there is a solution to getting the device to work. What seems to be lost in the fray is... Is the effort and potential expense worth it to the purchaser? Only one person knows that answer.
We can all say that things are "simple" / "easy" etc. for our particular areas of expertise. This is an amazing community. I've never been refused exceptional assistance with any issue I've come across as I've progressed through my learning of basic electronics and building various projects.
I agree with the troubleshooting steps previously suggested. However, I think it's also relevant that Jan might expect better documentation and support from the manufacturer of a commercially sold device vs. expecting our lovely community to provide it. I think it's perfectly acceptable to simply state his experiences with the product and move along. I don't recall him requesting assistance with troubleshooting, but I may have missed it.
I admit to falling into similar situations with my wife. She states her frustration over Topic X at work. I move immediately into troubleshooting mode, and I suggest solutions. I get yelled at. 😀
Jan, I hope you find a solution that works well for you.
J-P, truly meant no disrespect. I see where you're coming from.
A. that someone had not read the "manual", and more importantly
B. that a helpful answer could be found in said "manual".
My guess is that J-P themself had not perused much if any of the documentation.
It's clear that there is a solution to getting the device to work. What seems to be lost in the fray is... Is the effort and potential expense worth it to the purchaser? Only one person knows that answer.
We can all say that things are "simple" / "easy" etc. for our particular areas of expertise. This is an amazing community. I've never been refused exceptional assistance with any issue I've come across as I've progressed through my learning of basic electronics and building various projects.
I agree with the troubleshooting steps previously suggested. However, I think it's also relevant that Jan might expect better documentation and support from the manufacturer of a commercially sold device vs. expecting our lovely community to provide it. I think it's perfectly acceptable to simply state his experiences with the product and move along. I don't recall him requesting assistance with troubleshooting, but I may have missed it.
I admit to falling into similar situations with my wife. She states her frustration over Topic X at work. I move immediately into troubleshooting mode, and I suggest solutions. I get yelled at. 😀
Jan, I hope you find a solution that works well for you.
J-P, truly meant no disrespect. I see where you're coming from.
Nevertheless, I'd be delighted if Jan is willing to take the trouble and connect the damned thing with a cable.
I'm about to pull the trigger on buying the same thing, and also I am, like Jan, of the older generation, neither willing nor able to solve unwelcome problems.
I'm about to pull the trigger on buying the same thing, and also I am, like Jan, of the older generation, neither willing nor able to solve unwelcome problems.
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I'm looking at a wifi router just now.
Edit: connected to my PC ethernet port. The 'manual' simply says to wait two minutes, press a button and enter a URL.
I've entered the URL both on the PC and the Android phone. Both give error messages, can't reach site, DNS cannot be resolved, This site can’t be reached 192.168.211.1 took too long to respond, that sort of thing.
It has to go. Life is too short.
Jan
Edit: connected to my PC ethernet port. The 'manual' simply says to wait two minutes, press a button and enter a URL.
I've entered the URL both on the PC and the Android phone. Both give error messages, can't reach site, DNS cannot be resolved, This site can’t be reached 192.168.211.1 took too long to respond, that sort of thing.
It has to go. Life is too short.
Jan
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The wireless chip Ampak AP6256 AMPAK - WikiDevi.Wi-Cat.RU used in the iFi streamer contains Broadcom BCM43456 core. This chip is quite known for connectivity issues - e.g. this discussion about upgraded firmware fixing connectivity and latency issues in the new Pi400 BCM43456 (Pi 400) WiFi feedback thread - Raspberry Pi Forums or New WiFi clm_blob file for BCM43456 (Pi 400) - Raspberry Pi Forums . Please notice how complicated the chain is - the firmware was released by Synaptics which designs IP cores for major chip manufacturers. Broadcom wireless chips have always been problematic, even in intel notebooks (I remember fighting their b43 driver in linux many years ago). As seen above the same chips are used in RPis (having problems with wifi too).
I am not surprised the iFI streamer is not a star in connectivity. But it may perfectly work with a different router, in a different environment, countless aspects play role here. On the other hand e.g. Atheros chips (acquired by Qualcomm) have been renowned for stability and reliability (and probably a different price too 🙂 ).
I am not surprised the iFI streamer is not a star in connectivity. But it may perfectly work with a different router, in a different environment, countless aspects play role here. On the other hand e.g. Atheros chips (acquired by Qualcomm) have been renowned for stability and reliability (and probably a different price too 🙂 ).
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You could check with an IP scanner (e.g. Advanced IP Scanner - Download Free Network Scanner.) if the streamer is alive.
Jan, please what specifically did you connect to your PC ethernet port? The streamer must be connected to your router running DHCP for your network.