Isn’t vented preferred for lower frequency tension though? Is there a benefit or reason to run 2 woofers instead of 1 again?
Yes there are benefits to running two woofers. More area means they don’t have to move as much, so distortion can be lower. Also two woofers combine to make a pattern that is narrower in one direction. There are other advantages.
I like Faital drivers if that’s what you want, but agree with Joe that Eminence makes a large range of very fine drivers.
Pro woofers will be very efficient and sturdy, but won’t dig as deep as many Hi-Fi woofers. FYI.
I like Faital drivers if that’s what you want, but agree with Joe that Eminence makes a large range of very fine drivers.
Pro woofers will be very efficient and sturdy, but won’t dig as deep as many Hi-Fi woofers. FYI.
Also an important question. What will you use as a crossover? The crossover is as important as the drivers.
Also, I’m hoping for. Woofer that can “dig deeper” as you put it while still being fairly efficient. I want to run these as mains for stereo no sub needed.
Well four 12” woofers at $125 each will kill your budget. You could do four Dayton classic woofers for half your budget.
But maybe the woofers you already have are fine. (Other than the 4 ohm part). Can you pop one out and post a photo so that we know what it is?
Keeping the woofers you have means you can put good money into your mid and tweeter.
But maybe the woofers you already have are fine. (Other than the 4 ohm part). Can you pop one out and post a photo so that we know what it is?
Keeping the woofers you have means you can put good money into your mid and tweeter.
Are you sure you have Dynaudio D54 AF midranges?
From your pictures it looks like D54. Not exactly the same thing.
Some more data here:
https://site.diy-loudspeakers.com/images/datasheets/loudspeakers/dynaudio/MIDRANGE/DYNAUDIO_D54.pdf
From your pictures it looks like D54. Not exactly the same thing.
Some more data here:
https://site.diy-loudspeakers.com/images/datasheets/loudspeakers/dynaudio/MIDRANGE/DYNAUDIO_D54.pdf
Attachments
You would have to put a divider in the box to have a proper size volume for a bass driver. The eminence standard box design is here https://eminence.com/collections/pro-audio/products/kappa_pro_12a#specifications click cab design for a pdf download. Vb is 1.68 cu ft, much less than your 5.7 cu ft. Driver volume is .09 cuft. Go a little oversize on the volume to subtract volume for wall lining. Wool felt or jeans shreds are respected for wall padding. The plastic foam parts express sells make poison gas in a house fire.
F3 is 57 hz, which is fine IMHO for running without a sub. My Peavey SP2(2004) are 54 hz. - 3 db freq response of eminence 12a cab is 57-800 hz. 300 w capable, more than I need in my music room. 2 ports 4 in diameter length 9.1" . I'd use carpet cores for the ports.
Kappapro-12a are $175 + freight. Steel frame Kappa-12a is $165, If you want to go cheap for less watts beta-12a is $120. I think one woofer per cab is fine for home use.
The eminence line rolls off nicely at the upper frequencies, no jagged curves.
Very practical suggestion IndianaJo. Thank you. Forgive me for asking, but is 57hz sufficient? Shouldn’t it go down to the 20hz range?
And Davor D, you might be right. I’m going to have to open up the box and check the midrange model out. Thank you.
If 57Hz is achieved in a good and balanced way, it can be very satisfying. It's OK to want to get another octave but I'd sooner invest efforts into improving the middle and upper bass in your room.
Ok. Thanks Pano. Once I get in to the cabinets I’ll let you know what the woofers are in there. Is the Dynaudio mid not an optimal choice?
According to post 27, dynaudio D54 has watt limit for 800-5000 hz of 600 W. I don't read that language well enough to know if it is music watts or AES watts. More than I need in a living room IMHO. sensitivity is 96 db 1w1m which could work well with a 97 db 1w1m woofer. No frequency response chart there. The eminence kappapro-12a cabinet design post 28 topped out at 800 hz. Note the eminence suggested designs maintain their rated watts. Kappapro-12a is 500 w AES. If one accepts a lower wattage limit to avoid exceeding Xmax at low frequencies, one can use a bigger box. Also a lower F3. My main music room amp tops out at 70 watts, another is 35 watts.
For living room use a 250 w beta-12a $120 might be fine with 250 w limit. 98 db 1w1m. It has lower Xmax, 4.4 mm versus 4.8 for kappapro-12a. One design feature for boosting bass below 54 is room placement. Posters here natter on about "baffle step compensation" which is for speakers on the front of an open stage. I have my speakers backed against a hard plaster wall which provides a 3 db boost at lowest frequencies. I find my unit realistic on organ records and piano lowest octave, although the factory chart says response is 10 db down at 40 hz.
Put vas, Qt, F3 in various driver software to calculate cabinets for various bass drivers. Vas for both 12" woofers above is 4.24 feet. I prefer a system Q of .7 for classical music, others may prefer 1 for a boom box effect. If you find out what your existing woofer models are you may be able to look up ThielSmall parameters and model them, too. One old woofer at 4 ohms may require some resistance on the D54 to match volumes. Your personal experience indicates your existing CD (compression driver + horn) is typical, ie loud. My RX22 CD's are 111 db 1w1m and are resistor padded down to match my 98 db 1w1m woofers. They are titanium diaphragm, which I don't find harsh at 1/8 - 50 watts.
For living room use a 250 w beta-12a $120 might be fine with 250 w limit. 98 db 1w1m. It has lower Xmax, 4.4 mm versus 4.8 for kappapro-12a. One design feature for boosting bass below 54 is room placement. Posters here natter on about "baffle step compensation" which is for speakers on the front of an open stage. I have my speakers backed against a hard plaster wall which provides a 3 db boost at lowest frequencies. I find my unit realistic on organ records and piano lowest octave, although the factory chart says response is 10 db down at 40 hz.
Put vas, Qt, F3 in various driver software to calculate cabinets for various bass drivers. Vas for both 12" woofers above is 4.24 feet. I prefer a system Q of .7 for classical music, others may prefer 1 for a boom box effect. If you find out what your existing woofer models are you may be able to look up ThielSmall parameters and model them, too. One old woofer at 4 ohms may require some resistance on the D54 to match volumes. Your personal experience indicates your existing CD (compression driver + horn) is typical, ie loud. My RX22 CD's are 111 db 1w1m and are resistor padded down to match my 98 db 1w1m woofers. They are titanium diaphragm, which I don't find harsh at 1/8 - 50 watts.
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I bought my SP2(2004) because I found bass satisfying at 54 hz F3, and they were the best speakers I ever heard in my flyover city. Your existing box is bass reflex like the SP2. The trouble with tuning a bass reflex for 30 hz or 20 hz f3, is there is a likelyhood of having a big amplitude dip at 50-60 hz. Nearly all woofers crash down 6 db/octave from 100 hz, on the factory flat test wall. You can stretch F3 (-3 db point) down to 54 hz by tuning the bass reflex box for that. You have room in your box for two cavities tuned at 55 hz and 30 hz for 2 woofers, but that makes the box incredibly heavy. Most people build a separate sub 30-50 hz. Another problem of 2 stereo speakers tuned to 30 hz and reproducing that, they make a null, a dead spot, in the middle of the room. Typically at 55 hz. see this thread about that problem https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ot-summing-at-certain-frequency.396903/latest Home systems avoid the null by having one sub. This requires a 3rd amp channel, though. Also an electronic crossover to separate off and sum the 20-60 hz from the stereo signals on recordings. You could make ONE of your speaker cabs have the 20-50 hz subwoofer (in addition to the 50-1000 hz woofer), and blank off the other cab 2nd woofer or make it a dummy. Ear can't locate 20-200 hz inside a home sized room anyway, the wavelengths are too long.
There is a design that tunes 20-200 hz just fine, the transmission line cabinet. Pano builds those. He gets bass response way down with 8" or 6" woofers. There is a tuned cavity 6' long or longer inside a tall skinny box to make the bass resonate. I've never heard one of those live, and never considered buying one since they are not demonstrated in stores here. Your existing box would be extremely heavy if you built a TL partition in it. I'm not building two TLs, I have my speakers set on poles projecting sound over top of an organ, for good sound all over the room. A floor standing speaker pair would require me to install my organ in the garage or basement. Most speaker builders don't have 2 organs + one piano in the music room.
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Ok IndianaJo, you’ve got me convinced on the eminence. While looking at them, a couple of questions for anyone who would like to help:
1) I think given their cutout dimensions, I’d be able to fit a 15 in. Inside the cabinet. Would the Beta 15A work well?
2) For power, would i be able to drive the higher power kappa (12 or 15 inch) well with my amp?
also, should I consider a higher sensitivity tweeter such as this?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...2606/9200-horn-loaded-1-textile-dome-tweeter/
thanks for your suggestions and continued input
1) I think given their cutout dimensions, I’d be able to fit a 15 in. Inside the cabinet. Would the Beta 15A work well?
2) For power, would i be able to drive the higher power kappa (12 or 15 inch) well with my amp?
also, should I consider a higher sensitivity tweeter such as this?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...2606/9200-horn-loaded-1-textile-dome-tweeter/
thanks for your suggestions and continued input
It is the sensitivity of a woofer that determines power consumption in home use. I find with my 99 db 1w1m 1508-8kadt woofers they are sounding fine running between 1/8 watt to 20 watts. My music room is rather absorbant with couch, carpet, acoustic tile ceiling, 2 organs and 2 organ speakers, book & record racks 7' high. I have 70 watts but that is for the cannon shot in 1812 overture in my front yard on 4th of July. The reason I bought a high watt pro woofer, my Deltapro-15a is 101.6 db 1w1m, which allows my 35 w/ch dynakit ST70 amp at normal volume if I want to use it.
Beta-15a is 98.2 db 1w1m which is fine for home use. Useable frequency band is 45-3700 hz although if you run them over 1200 you get beaming, narrow dispersion. My SP2-XT & SP2(2004) have a lot of cabinet engineering to make the dispersion -3 db +-22.5 deg from center. A lot of the sensitivity of Beta-15a is the 10-20 db rise from 1000 to 3500 hz which you probably are going to kill off in the crossover, so looks like 96 db 1w1m 100-1000 hz. Your box cavity is 15.5" so not a lot of material on the side to restrict movement of a 13.87 dia woofer with the front panel. Better use 3/4 baldwin birch or something, available at my HomeDepot only in 4'x8' sheets. I'm using 24"x3/4 "sahel" panel for the front of my Uglyson, SP2 copies so ugly they're not worth anything at the pawn shop. I don't have a truck to haul home 4'x8' sheets. My SP2-XT were stolen 9/22 along with 2200 LPs, amps, mixers etc.
The tweeter in post 35 is 95 db 1w1m which means you would need to pad down (resistor series or capacitor parallel) a 98 db 1w1m woofer. Capacitors parallel woofer eat current and stress low watt amps. However with Beta-15a maybe 96 db 100-800 hz, might be a good match to that tweeter with just a series tungsten bulb burnout eliminator.
Beta-15a is 98.2 db 1w1m which is fine for home use. Useable frequency band is 45-3700 hz although if you run them over 1200 you get beaming, narrow dispersion. My SP2-XT & SP2(2004) have a lot of cabinet engineering to make the dispersion -3 db +-22.5 deg from center. A lot of the sensitivity of Beta-15a is the 10-20 db rise from 1000 to 3500 hz which you probably are going to kill off in the crossover, so looks like 96 db 1w1m 100-1000 hz. Your box cavity is 15.5" so not a lot of material on the side to restrict movement of a 13.87 dia woofer with the front panel. Better use 3/4 baldwin birch or something, available at my HomeDepot only in 4'x8' sheets. I'm using 24"x3/4 "sahel" panel for the front of my Uglyson, SP2 copies so ugly they're not worth anything at the pawn shop. I don't have a truck to haul home 4'x8' sheets. My SP2-XT were stolen 9/22 along with 2200 LPs, amps, mixers etc.
The tweeter in post 35 is 95 db 1w1m which means you would need to pad down (resistor series or capacitor parallel) a 98 db 1w1m woofer. Capacitors parallel woofer eat current and stress low watt amps. However with Beta-15a maybe 96 db 100-800 hz, might be a good match to that tweeter with just a series tungsten bulb burnout eliminator.
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Great info Indianajo! You’ve been at this speaker building for a while, huh? I got started, switched vocation and never had time (or money for that matter) to really get into it like I wanted. I was super happy to be awarded the grant money and time off to take a swing at these. I’m very much looking forward to finishing this pair though for the sentimental reasons I named at the beginning of the post as well as the (hopefully) improved sound.
Sorry to hear about the stolen goods. That’s rotten. People only think about their own gain, not someone else’s loss.
I'm grateful for the responses and advice. Of the eminence woofers and sizes named, if these speakers were yours, which would you choose in the end? Just curious.
Thanks once again.
Sorry to hear about the stolen goods. That’s rotten. People only think about their own gain, not someone else’s loss.
I'm grateful for the responses and advice. Of the eminence woofers and sizes named, if these speakers were yours, which would you choose in the end? Just curious.
Thanks once again.
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The only thing I've actually built is a trio of 6.5" coaxial full range salvaged from projection TV, in a 14"x7"x7" bass reflex box from the smile agency. The burglar took those too. I've repaired 3 speakers that blew a driver. Burglar was a cash basis housepainter, at height of covid19 when nobody would answer the door. He used his ladder to come in through the 2nd story window. No unemployment comp for cash basis workers who never paid income tax.
I've done a lot of studying. No tools to build cabinets since he carried off all those too. My cab will be 24" wide at front, which solves a lot of the problems you will have with 15.5" wide ID on a 15" woofer. Flat dimensions cause such response bumps at dimension/speedofsound due to standing waves I'm going to try to build a wedge shaped box in an old fireplace frame. Will require angle cuts. Goal is I can pick it up, 54-1200 hz, I'm age 72, small, and can't put the SP2(2004) on the poles by myself.
I think due to your narrow tall box, desire for 20 hz response, I'd try beta-12a, dual in one box, single in the other. One woofer+cavity tuned to 55 hz for 54-800 hz, 2nd one in one box tuned to 44 hz, crossed over top at 54 hz. Will need a 3rd channel and a electronic crossover like a NADY Peavy or Rane to sum the 2 channels & produce a 3rd channel for the sub driver. If you could afford it, $249, for the subwoofer you could use an eminence lab12 which is useable 25-100 hz. Less beaming at top end from 12" woofers and the 12" seem fine to 54 hz. I bought 15" because at the store the Peavey SP5 with 12" bass was kind of gutless on piano. SP2 was great with 15" + CD. After study, decent bass can be had from a 12" or 10" woofer at home volume with the proper design.
What kind of music to you listen too? Classical you want system Q of 0.7. Disco you want more like 1.2 . First step of design process.
I've done a lot of studying. No tools to build cabinets since he carried off all those too. My cab will be 24" wide at front, which solves a lot of the problems you will have with 15.5" wide ID on a 15" woofer. Flat dimensions cause such response bumps at dimension/speedofsound due to standing waves I'm going to try to build a wedge shaped box in an old fireplace frame. Will require angle cuts. Goal is I can pick it up, 54-1200 hz, I'm age 72, small, and can't put the SP2(2004) on the poles by myself.
I think due to your narrow tall box, desire for 20 hz response, I'd try beta-12a, dual in one box, single in the other. One woofer+cavity tuned to 55 hz for 54-800 hz, 2nd one in one box tuned to 44 hz, crossed over top at 54 hz. Will need a 3rd channel and a electronic crossover like a NADY Peavy or Rane to sum the 2 channels & produce a 3rd channel for the sub driver. If you could afford it, $249, for the subwoofer you could use an eminence lab12 which is useable 25-100 hz. Less beaming at top end from 12" woofers and the 12" seem fine to 54 hz. I bought 15" because at the store the Peavey SP5 with 12" bass was kind of gutless on piano. SP2 was great with 15" + CD. After study, decent bass can be had from a 12" or 10" woofer at home volume with the proper design.
What kind of music to you listen too? Classical you want system Q of 0.7. Disco you want more like 1.2 . First step of design process.
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Thats rough. I’m really am sorry to hear About everything you lost. Very disheartening.
what type of music? Wow. Pretty much everything except modern country 🙂
I enjoy a lot of classical, a lot of classic rock, a fair amount of rap/hip-hop. My musical tastes are a wide blend. Mostly when I’m listening to classical and rap is when I’m concerned about the lower end of the spectrum Because it sure is noticeable when it isn’t there. I want these to be the feature in the room. Good music and for me good memories. since these are likely as close to the best I’ll ever afford and certainly the best I’ll ever make, I’m trying to accomplish as much as I can without a sub. That’s why I’m really striving to hit the best combination of components and hoping to achieve a pretty good sound.
what type of music? Wow. Pretty much everything except modern country 🙂
I enjoy a lot of classical, a lot of classic rock, a fair amount of rap/hip-hop. My musical tastes are a wide blend. Mostly when I’m listening to classical and rap is when I’m concerned about the lower end of the spectrum Because it sure is noticeable when it isn’t there. I want these to be the feature in the room. Good music and for me good memories. since these are likely as close to the best I’ll ever afford and certainly the best I’ll ever make, I’m trying to accomplish as much as I can without a sub. That’s why I’m really striving to hit the best combination of components and hoping to achieve a pretty good sound.