You might want to have a word with his marketing department to correct this - they might give you a free one. LF phase distortion in speakers is associated with increased group delay as frequencies descend. The correction to this effect would be to speed up the bass by delaying the higher frequencies. In a former life I designed a digital product which, inter alia, did exactly that and it worked well in 'tightening up' the bottom end. Never made it to market though.
One definite benefit I have been hearing for years has the tightening up of the bottom end. So, it may have been a typo.
I think they should have had the engineering dept proof read what they wrote before publishing, for you are correct. Its the higher frequencies that need some delay.
The bass improvement isn't by any means a subtle one. It should though be tailored to the particular mechanics of the speaker one's using - dipole, IB or ported. Our device allowed you to dial in the -6dB point from the speaker's spec sheet too. I'm probably going to introduce such a feature when I market my own digital products some time in the next couple of years. 
Here is the online manual. It appears that they may be working with something different.
http://www.bbesound.com/products/manuals/482i_manual_rev4.pdf
Just read the first paragraph.
The effect is adjustable on the BBE. The hi contour I find needs only a minor tweek on my system. On smaller speakers I find they need more low contour for more bass extension. But the bass is very clean. Nothing like I heard from any tone control,or equalizer.
What is going on besides the tone control is something they do not explain how they accomplish. You would need to know. All I know is that my ears agree with what it produces. Never heard instruments sound so realistic and everything so nicely put to scale before on any other system lacking the BBE in circuit. Its something that revitalizes the music. I never want to listen to music with out it. Without it, music is simply loud background music in comparison.
http://www.bbesound.com/products/manuals/482i_manual_rev4.pdf
Just read the first paragraph.
The effect is adjustable on the BBE. The hi contour I find needs only a minor tweek on my system. On smaller speakers I find they need more low contour for more bass extension. But the bass is very clean. Nothing like I heard from any tone control,or equalizer.
What is going on besides the tone control is something they do not explain how they accomplish. You would need to know. All I know is that my ears agree with what it produces. Never heard instruments sound so realistic and everything so nicely put to scale before on any other system lacking the BBE in circuit. Its something that revitalizes the music. I never want to listen to music with out it. Without it, music is simply loud background music in comparison.
Thanks. Yeah interesting that they repeat the same error 'the higher frequencies are delayed'. Well if that's true then we don't actually need a digital box to correct for that, we can do it with good old analog all-pass filters at LF. Digital's great advantage is it can delay high frequencies by an almost arbitrary amount, something that analog has extreme trouble in achieving.
I apologise. 12dB boost at 50Hz or 5kHz is not subtle - more like boom and tizz. Its basic function is an equaliser, but it seems that the amount of boost is program controlled so that makes it an effects box. Note that a box like this can boost the frequency range of some speakers, but it won't increase their power handling or reduce their distortion (it could make things worse).
Introducing this into a discussion which started with Litz wire actually confirms my belief that these various add-ons produce pleasant distortion or response shaping (i.e. tone controls). As I keep saying, nothing wrong with that provided people realise what it is and don't make silly claims. It is the silly claims I object to, not the FX box.
Because of the difficulty of soldering to all the fine insulated strands of Litz wire I would expect that a significant proportion of the strands have either no connection or a non-linear connection. Only those strands with a good ohmic connection at both ends can contribute to signal integrity. The rest will either do nothing (hopefully) or cause problems (e.g. capacitive coupling between adjacent strands with a good joint at alternate ends, intermittent diodes at one or both ends).
Introducing this into a discussion which started with Litz wire actually confirms my belief that these various add-ons produce pleasant distortion or response shaping (i.e. tone controls). As I keep saying, nothing wrong with that provided people realise what it is and don't make silly claims. It is the silly claims I object to, not the FX box.
Because of the difficulty of soldering to all the fine insulated strands of Litz wire I would expect that a significant proportion of the strands have either no connection or a non-linear connection. Only those strands with a good ohmic connection at both ends can contribute to signal integrity. The rest will either do nothing (hopefully) or cause problems (e.g. capacitive coupling between adjacent strands with a good joint at alternate ends, intermittent diodes at one or both ends).
You do know, I've told you. Am I typing in invisible ink?
Over the years I have had contact with basically two kinds of technical types. Haughty, or helpful. Your breed seem to run in opposite poles. One type tries to be deliberately misleading I found. Vested interest may sometimes be the motivation. The reason why, I do not need to know.
All I know is that I see something that works. Something they can not produce. Only criticize.
When that happens? I just accept it as another day, and move on.
More confirmation!GeneZ said:
I am very inexperienced with Litz. If I ever find the need to design my own 455kHz IFT I might consider using Litz for that, in order to get a reasonable Q. I suspect that it is applications like that (low frequency inductors) which the military use it for. I doubt if they use it for audio. Inexperience with using Litz does not prohibit me from commenting on its use. One of the nice things about physics is that the same laws apply to all of us, so skin effect and proximity effect work the same. That means that I don't have to actually measure it myself to know that in a certain frequency range it has lower resistance than other wires of a similar size.
I never claimed that pre-addition audio was distortion-free. It will have some low-level distortions. Adding a box (or whatever) will not remove this distortion. That is my point! The box will do one of two things: mask the distortion by adding some of its own and/or add some 'pleasant' distortion. You can correct frequency response problems with a box, but only if you carefully measure them first and design an inverse filter. It is almost impossible to cancel distortion in the incoming signal, so nobody tries.
One of the problems with us "technical types" is that we usually like to deal with the issue at hand, not how people feel about it. This may sometimes offend non-technical people, especially when we challenge their attempts at technical statements. When we disagree with someone we don't tell them to go and mow the lawn, as that might appear rude and childish.
I have met all kinds. Some are able to combine both attributes. The President of Kef I met in the 70's. He was able to be both humane and technical. Dick Sequerra, as well. I have been friends with two audio technicians who laid off the insults and knew how to explain things without throwing out presumptions they knew would illicit a negative response. Then, some I noticed had a cliquishness attitude that expressed their knowledge as to exclude outsiders, rather than offer a helping hand. There is a computer shop I now refuse to go back to because the technician is a machine.
Maybe some here might benefit in learning how to adapt to a more humane approach when you know you are not dealing with another technician. I felt I walked into a home with a bunch of condescending people standing around a cocktail party. That's how some here made your welcome. As far as I was concerned, all I was getting was erroneous conjecture because no one here has owned such a unit to see what it actually can do. If they did and saw what it can actually do? They may for the first time consider finding out what it actually is effecting. And, as for the litz? No one here has apparently went the full nine yards to see what it does to purify the sound when the entire audio chain has its wires replaced with litz. I have taken the time to do it myself. And, I am not even a technician. Audio Research and Conrad Johnson... Sonus Faber..to name a few.. and various interconnect manufacturers all see virtue in litz for full bandwidth usage, not just high frequencies.
I found it amusing that when I supplied quotes in one post about the BBE, that someone assumed they were advertisements. Apparently, because advertisements only try to overemphasize the positive side. Yet? They were not advertisements. They were extracted from reputable review publications. By people who have critical ears for music. And, that's what counts. Not a bunch of conjecture on what it might be doing without even giving it a hearing.
Other than that?... nice living room.
Just keep the noise down.
Maybe because they were cut and pasted, ellipses and all, from the BBE ad page:
Welcome to BBE Sound Huh. Where could that un-named person gotten the idea that you were quoting ads?
Now, you have had free advice and analysis from EM experts regarding Litz. You've had an explanation of the BBE device from a guy with a few decades of actual technical experience who's had one on the bench. You've treated both of those guys with sneering condescension rather than the gratitude and respect they deserve.
This isn't a sales floor- this is a technical forum. If you have something technical to contribute- in a way that deals with technical ideas, not personal attacks- you'll be very welcome here. If all you have is ad slogans, no real technical background, and have no interest in learning from guys like Dave and Al, you'd do better in one of the many other marketing-oriented audio forums which don't focus on technology but are happy to provide support groups.
Just realized what some here may have been doing. They have been apparently confusing the particular BBE unit I have been pointing to (Sonic Maximzer)with other BBE products that are harmonic synthesizers and loudness controls.
One more try: http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/sonic-sweet.aspx
One more try: http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/sonic-sweet.aspx
The inventor of the Aphex built a Heathkit preamp and it didn't work right, but he liked the sound of what it did to his music. In debugging it among other he things he found the signal was routed back through one side of his phono cartridge! So he started building a deliberate signal conditioner.
So the conclusion would be that some folks like adding distortion. Although I have to admit I would like to have heard the original mistake!
So the conclusion would be that some folks like adding distortion. Although I have to admit I would like to have heard the original mistake!
Sounds like the account of the beginning of Lasik eye surgery. It was discovered by accident because of inferior Russian eye glasses. These broke when a Russian boy fell off his bike. The broken glass cut his eyes. After healing they found he did not need glasses.
Fortunately for us today, the Iron Curtain Russian technology at that time was behind the times. They had no unbreakable lenses for glasses.
Some mistakes are meant to happen for our benefit. Gentlemen.. Choose your distortion.
.
Last edited:
An extremely reasonable sentiment, Gene.
Ed, it's often said that great discoveries aren't the result of, "Eureka!" but rather of, "Hmmm, that's odd..."
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.