well, we don't have to agree on everything
well, after I read in Toole that for instance "comb filtering" is a "measurement artifact" uncorrelated with anything audible, what am I to think about a measurement as such???
I have never heard of a radiation pattern called "flooder"
It is only something that throws substantial energy towards the ceiling not considering the horizontal response.
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Only visible during the night and best seen from a plane. From there it looks like a 2pi radiationwho told You that?
but - wait! - let's consider Helsinki's radiation pattern
OK, let's stop this self-entertainment, while we wait for Gary to come back.
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Only visible during the night and best seen from a plane. From there it looks like a 2pi radiation
OK, let's stop this self-entertainment, while we wait for Gary to come back.
ok!
...and meanwhile ...there is a new Helsinki thread! Let's go there! 
And yet we're still waving bits of paper around with magnets. The fact that this stuff works at all still surprises me.
I'm not sure how the Helsinki would work - surely with the bass drivers orientated that way, you're sat in the dipole null...
Chris
only if the room is very large!
And if it is the case, you wouldn't choose that one, not enough output..
consistent reports are that getting the bass right is indeed diffcult with this speakers, they seem to excell in other areas, first of all - space
No, because dipoles don't work as dipoles in small rooms. They can't. Typical room dimensions are too small for a dipole pattern to emerge.
Come on Markus, you can't make blunt statements like that on a public forum.. They work as dipole well up to the longuest room dimension, in case of a very small room, they surely wouldn't be dipoles far down.. but who uses dipoles in small rooms anyway???
Even SL has strict size recommendations, although a bit on the low side.
And even if it is "only" down to 100hz, that's still good!
The Helsinki usese waveguide and cardioide dispersion pattern.
I have listened to it. I have also had it's bigger and older brother. A speaker like that is quite nice for many rooms with a certain controlled directivity, but it has clear limitations in regarding dynamics and SPL. The 15" dipole bass is turned the wrong way IMO. And if you turn the bass driver towards the listening position for better bass reponse, you don't have enough treble.
Dynamics and SPL are important in order to get a good illusion. A well designed horn blows away a speaker like this IMO. No comparison really. Better power response and much better dynamics.
I have listened to it. I have also had it's bigger and older brother. A speaker like that is quite nice for many rooms with a certain controlled directivity, but it has clear limitations in regarding dynamics and SPL. The 15" dipole bass is turned the wrong way IMO. And if you turn the bass driver towards the listening position for better bass reponse, you don't have enough treble.
Dynamics and SPL are important in order to get a good illusion. A well designed horn blows away a speaker like this IMO. No comparison really. Better power response and much better dynamics.
I agree. Room modes generally will dominate. Even the reflections are going to effect the pattern.
Yes, they are. But the illusion of space is also an important one, the most important one in my opinion. If it's just a dynamics problem, you can always add separate bass drivers..
How many WG/Horns owners go often to the concert hall?
Come on Markus, you can't make blunt statements like that on a public forum.. They work as dipole well up to the longuest room dimension, in case of a very small room, they surely wouldn't be dipoles far down.. but who uses dipoles in small rooms anyway???
Even SL has strict size recommendations, although a bit on the low side.
And even if it is "only" down to 100hz, that's still good!
I thought this topic is settled and doesn't require lengthy explanations anymore.
You can find detailed data on John's website.
By the way, I don't consider Linkwitz's room as acoustically large.
Main point of radiation pattern is that all frequencies appear from single source. Monopole, dipole, bass reflex, doesn't matter.
None of the crappy reflections happen until surface is illuminated with sound from source. A pair of ear buds held a few inches in front of head form well defined AS.
AS is encoded in two channels, and doesn't require a room to reconstruct.
Separate the variables. Frequency fidelity and spatial fidelity.
When SL built Pluto, he was quite surprised by similarity to Orion listening to wide variety of music. Imaging of Pluto is more defined. Why is this? It's not omni v dipole, it's apparent source coherence. Orion tweeter/mid distance and baffle width smear location cues more than Pluto.
When artificial AS is generated by mixing, sound elements are panned to location, typically monitoring with small monitors, with low levels, listening near field.
Direct sound forms AS, reflections greater than about 3ms do not contribute to AS unless they combine at listening point as significantly louder than direct sound.
Baffle size and shape contribute to apparent source width.
As apparent source width increases, so does subtended angle of source. The wider the apparent source, the fewer elements that are resolved in AS when two sources are set up for stereo.