I don't think we actually disagree. "Blowing out of the water" is hyperbole but the point is that you can still do better without shelling out 6 grand for ready-made Orions.
FWIW (as if it probably hasn't been posted throughout this thread) here's the frequency response on the Behringers:
VS Mark K's ER18DXTs
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Different scale/conditions I know. But to me, that 1khz dip on the behringers in particular looks like it should be audible.
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a 3db dip is audible for you?
I sure hope your room as many many bass traps and diffusers, because your room likely inflict much bigger problems then 3 db dip.
I will post soon my before and after in room response with and without treatment. I had 20 db dips and peaks, now all within 6 db.
I sure hope your room as many many bass traps and diffusers, because your room likely inflict much bigger problems then 3 db dip.
I will post soon my before and after in room response with and without treatment. I had 20 db dips and peaks, now all within 6 db.
I don't think we actually disagree. "Blowing out of the water" is hyperbole but the point is that you can still do better without shelling out 6 grand for ready-made Orions.
FWIW (as if it probably hasn't been posted throughout this thread) here's the frequency response on the Behringers:
VS Mark K's ER18DXTs
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Different scale/conditions I know. But to me, that 1khz dip on the behringers in particular looks like it should be audible.
That's the passive one, which is comparatively not so good, but in any case that measurement doesn't really look like it's reaching that low in freq. accurately. Pretty hard to find measurements of the active one, although you can see it in Geddes' polarmap program online (displaying a minor peak around 1kHz on-axis..., although in the context of the whole polar, it's probably better described as a slightly recessed response from ~1.6k-5k).
http://zaphaudio.com/temp/b2031p-system-horizontal-offaxis-0-15-30-45-60.gif
What about John Krutke's measurements of the passives?
Why do they differ so much from the example above?
Judging from his measurements, it looks like the WG is too small.
What about John Krutke's measurements of the passives?
Why do they differ so much from the example above?
Judging from his measurements, it looks like the WG is too small.
Hmm, I think the waveguide looks okay in that, but I had to fix the scale for the difference. It is a bit different in the upper mids, but same features... I think I'd go with John's on this one.
Attachments
I still sell the Abbey as a kit, but nothing else. I would say that while it is expensive, you really cannot get anything else at that price that compares.
But I will have to ask if there are any measurements to support that the speakers that you list actually do measure better than the Behringers. I was the one who measured them and the data is posted on my web site. They are pretty amazing for their price and I don't see the speakers that you list will "blow the Behringers measurably out of the water" as you say.
I wish we could actually compare all those speaker that you mention in one single database ...http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/261616-measurement-technology.html
I regularly listen to the Behringers in a home theater system (not my own). They are very good, but on a movie at higher levels they loose quality at times. This is precisely what I would expect from this design. Just fine as long as you don't push them too hard. But they are not made for sustained high levels as one will often encounter in a film.
Polar maps are great for highlighting a speakers performance under "normal" operating conditions, but we need something that separates speakers for higher levels as I find this is often the differentiating factor.
That's totally consistent with what I've experienced as well.
I've had people offer to buy my Summas, but the thing that keeps me from doing that is that they're simply unbeatable at dynamics.
IE, if you don't listen LOUD there are speakers that sound *similar* to the Summas. But once you get accustomed to the dynamics of the Summa, it's hard to go back.
Here's an analogy:
I have a 100" projector at home. I also have a 55" LED IPS TV. A really nice HDTV. My 100" projector has compromises - it's not easy to watch TV during the day. But once you grow accustomed to a 100" screen it's damn near impossible to go back to watching movies on a 55" TV. I *tried*, but I couldn't do it. My spendy 55" TV is sitting in a closet.
I've had people offer to buy my Summas, but the thing that keeps me from doing that is that they're simply unbeatable at dynamics.
IE, if you don't listen LOUD there are speakers that sound *similar* to the Summas. But once you get accustomed to the dynamics of the Summa, it's hard to go back.
Here's an analogy:
I have a 100" projector at home. I also have a 55" LED IPS TV. A really nice HDTV. My 100" projector has compromises - it's not easy to watch TV during the day. But once you grow accustomed to a 100" screen it's damn near impossible to go back to watching movies on a 55" TV. I *tried*, but I couldn't do it. My spendy 55" TV is sitting in a closet.
There are more aspects that make a speaker perform better than strictly measuring off axis polar plots.
If that were the case, why did the IMP's win the contest?
This is a thread about 3 different types of radiation. Particularly weather or not reflections effect realistic sound reproduction.
The Behringers were 2nd place, think about that.
The two systems that use the room were 1st and 3rd.
If that were the case, why did the IMP's win the contest?
This is a thread about 3 different types of radiation. Particularly weather or not reflections effect realistic sound reproduction.
The Behringers were 2nd place, think about that.
The two systems that use the room were 1st and 3rd.
First I have to say that the three speakers being compared have totally different dispersion patterns, which may well be the biggest difference when they are in a room. One conclusion I might draw from the results is that the room didn't sound a lot better or worse when the speakers (radiation patterns) were switched. It's my opinion that in other room types there is likely to be a much bigger difference, because of the large difference in radiation patterns.
Having said that, I think a box that had eight 6 inch woofers (such as the Peerless Nomex cone drivers which I really like), 2 on each side, and 3 inch mid-tweeters (such as the Peerless TG drivers which I love) on each side crossed around 500HZ passively would be fantastic, if the speaker towers were tall enough to position the tweeters at least 36 inches off the floor and if the box can be at least 3 feet from any walls (other than the floor). Unless you are into VERY loud bass, eight 6 inchers on each side with good Xmax should be able to give very good and low bass.
If you want to take it to the next level, I highly recommend using active EQ to make the bass acoustically flat down to 30HZ at the listening position, and once you've got a chassis and power supply for that, you might as well biamp 4th order (take a Linkwitz circuit and scale the values of the appropriate parts, verify in SPICE or equiv.), and then you should be in heaven. I can share a good active EQ circuit that I've developed that pumps up 30HZ by about 10dB relative to 150HZ, and has a 2nd order rolloff below 30HZ, if you're interested. Also a 500HZ 4th order Linkwitz active crossover circuit as well. This is only recommended if the woofers are in closed boxes.
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Believe it or not, a lot of HDTVs are IPS, particular older ones. (I was surprised too; I have a cheap Westinghouse that you can find used for $200 that's IPS.)
So you can spend $300 for a 24" Dell IPS monitor, or $200 for a 37" IPS HDTV!
I just bought one of those 50" UHD TVs for a monitor, eight million pixels is fun 😀
My Panasonic that's sitting in a closet is similar to this: https://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-L47E5
Thanks for your replies guys! This comes as somewhat of a shock but very informative.
I had already built a prooven design (ZX Spectrum by Paul Carmody) and I was narrowing in on a second build of a prooven design, but something more high end, about $1k in parts maybe, or just a cheap desktop build for $200.
Pride of craftsmanship is trully rewarding and I don't think I will stop building, but I also was under the assumption that the goal is not just to thinker but to build something better than what you can afford if you wen't out and bought it built.
Say I did build DIY pair of $1000+ speaker form a proven Zaph ScanSpeak desing.... than someone comes by and says well you wasted your time because $400 Behringers sound better, so do the B&W's for the same price. Besides eye candy, why did I build them?
Haven't even tried designing my own yet (although I am considering this for my 3rd build)... that could be utter dissapointment hehe 🙂
If my goal was to have a speaker that's better than what I can get commercially for $1000, I would buy something used off of Craigslist. My Vandersteens were $350 and my Kefs were $50.
The main reason I paid the big bucks for the Summas is that there is nothing comparable in their price range. I know a lot of people compare the Econowaves to the Summas, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. IMHO the cabinet of the Summas is a huge part of their sound and their imaging. The Econowaves don't have that cabinet, and it makes a big difference.
The main reason I paid the big bucks for the Summas is that there is nothing comparable in their price range. I know a lot of people compare the Econowaves to the Summas, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. IMHO the cabinet of the Summas is a huge part of their sound and their imaging. The Econowaves don't have that cabinet, and it makes a big difference.
"The Econowaves" is also not exactly anything in particular, so... agreed, they are not comparable in quality to a rigorously-developed complete speaker. They are (A), a few generic crossovers for particular waveguide+compression driver combos, meant to be matched to a large-ish vintage woofer in its own cabinet, and then, you know, fixed to really work right if the user knows how, or (B) a handful of designs that a few guys online put together in collaboration, many of them in a matter of hours total development time.
P.S. not knocking the project one bit (I loved it), just, it is what it is/was - more of a proof-of-concept, starting point sort of thing.
P.S. not knocking the project one bit (I loved it), just, it is what it is/was - more of a proof-of-concept, starting point sort of thing.
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At this point do not build your own, you are light years away.
Most people would be happy with the Behringers,great, so what.
Sorry to be harsh, but I don't think your getting DIY. It's not to save money or impress your friends.
euh...
. I used to own a much better studio monitors, the focal cms 50. It happened that my dad found a behringer b 2030. We compared both and the behringer wasnt even close to the transparency of the focal.
Since that time, about 5 years ago, I have had many other diy speakers and all proved to be better then the focal cm50.
Then, if I comapre something like a ref 3a decapo or audio note anj, its like comparing a ford to a ferrari.
Now, I just dont believe that behringer beats the Orion. and if they do, it still dont mean anything; it only mean the Orion are simply bad, which I doubt. something was flawed in the test.
A monitor like behringer can easily be beaten by a good diy kit or proven design.
finally, yes most people who go into diy wants to get a good speaker for less money. YOu have to pay upward of 5k MINIMUM to get a big three way commercialy that uses a 12 or 15 inch. Most are upward of 10k...
Most can build a good 3 way for 1k. so I think that indeed a lot goes into diy to save money. as for impressing friends, I dont know, maybe some, but Im exactly the contrary, I feel odd to say that ive build my speakers, nobody understand the goal in it... until they listen 🙂
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I did not say anything about the Behringers being great. I have them, they're ok, they're the worst speaker I have, I still think they're a good value. I said most people would be satisfied with them, I think that's true. I was addressing the other poster who was concerned his friends might not be impressed with his DIY efforts. He is right in that most people don't know or care about this level of obsession.
I have heard the Orion's in a very well set up system and I thought they were excellent. I prefer them to most speakers I've heard.
There is nothing wrong with the test per se, but a mistake in drawing an overly broad conclusion from a small sample. It's one small data point, big deal.
My music listening is strictly for my own enjoyment, I put MY preferences above all others. For me DIY is a never ending quest for my own enjoyment, I love it.🙂