Every note made by every instrument starts with a transient. Every spoken syllable too.
Ah.. I guess I was asking for trouble!
I know there are theories with the spectrum involved and a sort of transient harmonic "distorsion"..
On various papers the terms seem liberally used, but to me, if all notes do have an onset, not all of them have a transient, otherwise there would be no steady state!
Take a piano, if you rest your finger down on a key, you get a note, which starts with an attack/onset. Now reverse the movement and push the key moving your hand up, that is a transient. A bit basic and probably not what you expected, I know..
Centered laterally of course, about ten feet back from the speakers. At this distance the image is almost independent of the location on the sofa, about four feet wide.
That is correct, not all the way the wall, but most of it. Yes this is substantial absorption, but it is the only absorption, except for the CLD walls at LFs which are throughout the room.
Then your contralateral reflection arrives a bit earlier and louder than in my room.
By the way, your setup doesn't look too good in your software:
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So what, it is still lower in level and later in time than if the speakers were not toed-in. That's the point.
Markus, why are your posts always so derogatory and biased? Show a better spot or better distance and better yet show some other speakers as well!! None of them are any good by your standards. You take the extreme worst and make it seem like it is the norm. I see why others get so frustrated with you. Your positions are seldom fair and balanced.
I don't think he could've stated what he felt was a fact with any less vitriol.
If you consider yourself to be a wise man then I think you should start ignoring trifles. Other people do it very well.
I ignore other people very well, but I have so much respect for Markus that I get annoyed when he gets unreasonable. Markus is one of the most informed people here, but sometimes he just gets obstinate. But he knows all this.
What speaker are you talking about? There could not be a dip at 50 Hz on any speaker that I know of because none of them go that low. I use no EQ on the passive systems, only the crossover. The active systems have a more complex crossover that one might call "EQ".
If you mean the dip at 500 Hz in the woofer, that is a resonance of the spider. All 15" woofers that I have tested have this same problem. Remember that the scale is only 3 dB per division. That makes even small aberrations look large.
Localizing above and below 700Hz
I got a chance to do some testing at work today, the results were mixed.
Unfortunately most of the crew had gone home early, so it was just one other sound guy (who has a cold) and me.
In a large open space in the warehouse we set up a pair of Meyer Sound PSW-4 subs topped by Meyer UPA-2P boxes. The UPAs are a 12"+horn, the PSW sub a 15+18". Crossover of both is crica 60Hz. Noise was used either full range or steeply low pass filtered. Mono signal that could be panned L-R independently on the subs and the top boxes via a Midas mixing console. Amplitude only. Noise was either continuous or pulsed.
Test subjects had their back to the person doing the testing, so no peaking.
With full range noise >60Hz (tops only) neither of us had any trouble hearing the noise move from left to right or anywhere in between. That remained true down to 120Hz LP. With subs only, we both had no trouble hearing location.
When subs and tops were panned separately, things got more complicated.
I had little trouble hearing the subs panned left to right while the top stayed center. No trouble hearing the tops pan L-R with the subs in the middle.
Moving just the top did tend to pull the bass along with it, but not completely. It was not difficult for me to hear that only the tops were moving.
(remember, acoustic x-over over ~60Hz, third order.)
My coworker had much more trouble hearing the bass move when limited to below 120Hz. He could not reliably identify the direction of the bass when it moved or when the top moved. He often picked the opposite direction or tended to hear bass on the left, even when it was centered or on the right.
For me, things got confusing when the top and the bass were panned in opposite directions. The image was indistinct.
Neither of us found there to be much difference in location ability above or below 700Hz, unless limited to >120Hz, then my coworker only.
From this quick test I'd have to say location abilities may vary by person, even among trained listeners. I had little trouble even down to 40Hz, my coworker couldn't do it under ~120Hz. But he did have a cold, if that matters. For me, having the bass and midrange-up coming from different directions was confusing. Less so for my colleague. The higher ranges tended to dominate for him.
I got a chance to do some testing at work today, the results were mixed.
Unfortunately most of the crew had gone home early, so it was just one other sound guy (who has a cold) and me.
In a large open space in the warehouse we set up a pair of Meyer Sound PSW-4 subs topped by Meyer UPA-2P boxes. The UPAs are a 12"+horn, the PSW sub a 15+18". Crossover of both is crica 60Hz. Noise was used either full range or steeply low pass filtered. Mono signal that could be panned L-R independently on the subs and the top boxes via a Midas mixing console. Amplitude only. Noise was either continuous or pulsed.
Test subjects had their back to the person doing the testing, so no peaking.
With full range noise >60Hz (tops only) neither of us had any trouble hearing the noise move from left to right or anywhere in between. That remained true down to 120Hz LP. With subs only, we both had no trouble hearing location.
When subs and tops were panned separately, things got more complicated.
I had little trouble hearing the subs panned left to right while the top stayed center. No trouble hearing the tops pan L-R with the subs in the middle.
Moving just the top did tend to pull the bass along with it, but not completely. It was not difficult for me to hear that only the tops were moving.
(remember, acoustic x-over over ~60Hz, third order.)
My coworker had much more trouble hearing the bass move when limited to below 120Hz. He could not reliably identify the direction of the bass when it moved or when the top moved. He often picked the opposite direction or tended to hear bass on the left, even when it was centered or on the right.
For me, things got confusing when the top and the bass were panned in opposite directions. The image was indistinct.
Neither of us found there to be much difference in location ability above or below 700Hz, unless limited to >120Hz, then my coworker only.
From this quick test I'd have to say location abilities may vary by person, even among trained listeners. I had little trouble even down to 40Hz, my coworker couldn't do it under ~120Hz. But he did have a cold, if that matters. For me, having the bass and midrange-up coming from different directions was confusing. Less so for my colleague. The higher ranges tended to dominate for him.
You're welcome!
Basically the take away was:
Further testing will involve splitting noise and music signals at in half 700Hz and moving the two halves separately. I do not expect the top half to be difficult to locate. I don't know if the bottom half will be or not. A lower split point could also be used.
Basically the take away was:
- Neither of us had any trouble locating full range noise. No real surprise.
- Neither of us had trouble locating bandwidth limited noise all the way down to <50Hz when the upper ranges were not present. Not the conventional wisdom.
- I was much better at locating bass <120Hz when the upper registers were present.
- Widely differing bass and upper register locations were confusing to me.
Further testing will involve splitting noise and music signals at in half 700Hz and moving the two halves separately. I do not expect the top half to be difficult to locate. I don't know if the bottom half will be or not. A lower split point could also be used.
Pano - you should report this to Griesinger as he is the one who made the claims. Maybe he is wrong and maybe there is a flaw in your test. I have know Dr. Griesinger for many years and his work is usually reliable. I am not a fan or "quick and dirty" tests as there is too much that can go wrong.
I am a little disappointed that he has not responded to my notes. I think that others should try as well. I do know that the people who study concert halls look down their noses at "audiophiles" - for the obvious reasons.
I am a little disappointed that he has not responded to my notes. I think that others should try as well. I do know that the people who study concert halls look down their noses at "audiophiles" - for the obvious reasons.
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