nothing has much worse reputation - they're considered by some to do nothing (good). I've heard the things bad, and sometimes very good. Cone deflection can be very low imo for high outout - especially on transients where reflex can get into trouble. Relatively strong motors were/are used.
John Karlson's invention list of 1950 lists an acoustic transducer with load-matching and controlled reverbration properties.
Karlson's originals ran 30-40 cubic inches rear chamber volume per square inch of cone and front chamber space about 1/2 that of the rear chamber. Smaller ratio coupler went to semi-resistive vents, perhaps to give better subjective damping on transients as those were the days of mix and match. (Karlson's "x15" system used 3/4" diameter d-Q-ing holes flanking a port)
Karlson - coupler, unlike horn, have certain size constraints to work and no real midrange gain other than ripple or dispersion effects.
there must be a few builders in the entire world besides one commercial K15 built in France.
are there any K-experimenters who wish to share lore, data, recipes, favorite drivers?
k-tube waveguides sound nice. I don't know what might be done for a K-midrange coupler.
Freddy
John Karlson's invention list of 1950 lists an acoustic transducer with load-matching and controlled reverbration properties.
Karlson's originals ran 30-40 cubic inches rear chamber volume per square inch of cone and front chamber space about 1/2 that of the rear chamber. Smaller ratio coupler went to semi-resistive vents, perhaps to give better subjective damping on transients as those were the days of mix and match. (Karlson's "x15" system used 3/4" diameter d-Q-ing holes flanking a port)
Karlson - coupler, unlike horn, have certain size constraints to work and no real midrange gain other than ripple or dispersion effects.
there must be a few builders in the entire world besides one commercial K15 built in France.
are there any K-experimenters who wish to share lore, data, recipes, favorite drivers?
k-tube waveguides sound nice. I don't know what might be done for a K-midrange coupler.
Freddy
Hi Freddi. I have some interest in these. If you see my post in the fullrange thread it discusses - shows- something similar. It is also similar to what my gut feeling is the way it should be done.
Recently I cut a slot, roughly exponential in a 7 inch length of cardboard tube and attached it pretty roughly to s cone tweeter. It was tube that plastic clingfilm is wrapped around. You could certainly hear where the slot began to work.
I think it would be great if MJK had the time or the inclination to look at these as I feel they are as yet untapped. I think Scottmoose feels the same way.
jamikl
Recently I cut a slot, roughly exponential in a 7 inch length of cardboard tube and attached it pretty roughly to s cone tweeter. It was tube that plastic clingfilm is wrapped around. You could certainly hear where the slot began to work.
I think it would be great if MJK had the time or the inclination to look at these as I feel they are as yet untapped. I think Scottmoose feels the same way.
jamikl
hi jamikl - maybe we can bribe Martin ? :^)
Zintz's Transylvania tube was cool for ~2Khz up and had 2 degree downwards taper. I made straight 5.3-5.5" pvc tubes with half-ellipse which work well before seeing a real Transylvania "The Tube"
CN is looking at slot inductance & capacitance to solve Poppe's work but might not ever share data (?)
heres CN's take a few years back on K15 (UF = "Ultra-Fidelity)
--" Fh behaves different for the UF compared to a horn.
Fhm = factor * EBP
For a horn the factor is 2. This is why you can't get a horn to have an extended high end.
The UF 's advantage is that it is essentially "open" at MF and has extended band width comparred
to a horn.
If you make the UF less "open" the upper MF reduces. If you tighten it enough, the Fh is severly
restricted, much like a bandpass.
***, says the design of the box is a 4 deg of freedom system.
The tapered slot requires complex mathematics to represent.
To understand the UF remember the horn of the Altec is essentially "open" to the enviornment
with some box reverb.BTW:without reverb, electronic or mechanically induced to a critical
minimum level, the reproduced sound will not sound real.
Now the low end. The port output is driving the Karlson coupler. You don't want high frequency tube resonances
coloring the sound. Therefor no tubes. Starting with the backwave, a low pass filter, and padding to kill a lot
of MF/HF going to the port.
The port mass is set to provide LF drive to the coupler. The mass loading of the coupler lowers
the f3 while the coupler provides the gain. The front shelf blocks significant MF/HF from the top chamber.
The rear volume is made small because a sealed coupler at LF loads similar to a horn.
Likewise the ported volume can be lower like ported horns.
Remember, you can't be an expert on the UF without building and testing them.
Same goes for horns, sealed and ported boxes etc. ... "
Freddy
Zintz's Transylvania tube was cool for ~2Khz up and had 2 degree downwards taper. I made straight 5.3-5.5" pvc tubes with half-ellipse which work well before seeing a real Transylvania "The Tube"
CN is looking at slot inductance & capacitance to solve Poppe's work but might not ever share data (?)
heres CN's take a few years back on K15 (UF = "Ultra-Fidelity)
--" Fh behaves different for the UF compared to a horn.
Fhm = factor * EBP
For a horn the factor is 2. This is why you can't get a horn to have an extended high end.
The UF 's advantage is that it is essentially "open" at MF and has extended band width comparred
to a horn.
If you make the UF less "open" the upper MF reduces. If you tighten it enough, the Fh is severly
restricted, much like a bandpass.
***, says the design of the box is a 4 deg of freedom system.
The tapered slot requires complex mathematics to represent.
To understand the UF remember the horn of the Altec is essentially "open" to the enviornment
with some box reverb.BTW:without reverb, electronic or mechanically induced to a critical
minimum level, the reproduced sound will not sound real.
Now the low end. The port output is driving the Karlson coupler. You don't want high frequency tube resonances
coloring the sound. Therefor no tubes. Starting with the backwave, a low pass filter, and padding to kill a lot
of MF/HF going to the port.
The port mass is set to provide LF drive to the coupler. The mass loading of the coupler lowers
the f3 while the coupler provides the gain. The front shelf blocks significant MF/HF from the top chamber.
The rear volume is made small because a sealed coupler at LF loads similar to a horn.
Likewise the ported volume can be lower like ported horns.
Remember, you can't be an expert on the UF without building and testing them.
Same goes for horns, sealed and ported boxes etc. ... "
Freddy
freddi, if you turn your Karlson cabs. around so that they face the wall, close enough for the slot to "feel " the wall what do they sound like. Is it muffled bass or does it work well. Thinking of mass loading the slot by the wall or the floor.
jamikl
jamikl
hi jamikl - be interesting to see effects and take input Z.
I've not done it due to 1/2" sheetrock walls plus have piles of horns, etc in way right now. Maybe a K15 owner with good walls can report.
freddy
I've not done it due to 1/2" sheetrock walls plus have piles of horns, etc in way right now. Maybe a K15 owner with good walls can report.
freddy
Hi freddi!
I've been reading your input over on Magnetar's thread about his OB's and got interested about "the Tube" (k-slot tweeter).
I'm working something up that will be an OB - but not as big as Magnetar's
(can't afford THAT). Chops has an interesting prototype over on his thread but it uses a very big horn that presents a space problem for me. 🙄
I want to toss together one of your "K-Tubes" (do you have a name that you prefer to have them called?) for HF and intend to use the B&C DE10-8. PE has the Eminence APT-3 adapters as well but this is where things start to get a little fuzzy for me. How to mate the driver plus adapter to the K-slot.
Maybe when I have the parts I will have a BFO (Brilliant Flash of the Obvious 
) and thing will seem clear - buuuuttt you have already been there - done that - and thus the question. I have a Dremel set and understand your drawing posted at Magnetar's site - so no problem making the tube - I'm just unclear on how to assemble the parts. I'll be glad to post some photo's as I go along if it would serve to help others out.
I've been reading your input over on Magnetar's thread about his OB's and got interested about "the Tube" (k-slot tweeter).
I'm working something up that will be an OB - but not as big as Magnetar's
(can't afford THAT). Chops has an interesting prototype over on his thread but it uses a very big horn that presents a space problem for me. 🙄 I want to toss together one of your "K-Tubes" (do you have a name that you prefer to have them called?) for HF and intend to use the B&C DE10-8. PE has the Eminence APT-3 adapters as well but this is where things start to get a little fuzzy for me. How to mate the driver plus adapter to the K-slot.
Maybe when I have the parts I will have a BFO (Brilliant Flash of the Obvious ) and thing will seem clear - buuuuttt you have already been there - done that - and thus the question. I have a Dremel set and understand your drawing posted at Magnetar's site - so no problem making the tube - I'm just unclear on how to assemble the parts. I'll be glad to post some photo's as I go along if it would serve to help others out.
Freddi,
Do you have anything objective that backs up your performance claims? I have certainly never seen anything which substantiates any claim of the "Kult of K".
Do you have anything objective that backs up your performance claims? I have certainly never seen anything which substantiates any claim of the "Kult of K".
2=tone Beta 15cx swapped between k15 and 'equivalent' reflex
http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/7707/dop151wm4.jpg
50Hz 20vrms k vs Yorkville usc1 pipehorn
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4400/k18f20vrmsug3.jpg
http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/7707/dop151wm4.jpg
50Hz 20vrms k vs Yorkville usc1 pipehorn
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4400/k18f20vrmsug3.jpg
that's proof? The whole point of the K slot is to make flat frequency response, by analogy to a steam whistle that makes noise rather than a tone when an exponential slot is cut in it.
For your distortion plots to be any kind of proof you need drawings and /or photos of the compared systems, frequency response and distortion curves and twin tone plots at multiple frequencies. Then some discussion of the results. That would come closer to "proof".
I'm sure if you made a down firing sub closely coupled to the floor you would see a pretty significant "measured" distortion reduction due to the cavity.
For your distortion plots to be any kind of proof you need drawings and /or photos of the compared systems, frequency response and distortion curves and twin tone plots at multiple frequencies. Then some discussion of the results. That would come closer to "proof".
I'm sure if you made a down firing sub closely coupled to the floor you would see a pretty significant "measured" distortion reduction due to the cavity.
Doesn't proof of extraordinary claims usually lie on the claimant?
Perhaps Paul Klipsch already proved it wrong some 50 years ago? 😉
Some seem to hold a certain reverence (often attributed to a sort of magic) for that which they do not understand. It is interesting what one can "prove" when one seeks to....
Perhaps Paul Klipsch already proved it wrong some 50 years ago? 😉
Some seem to hold a certain reverence (often attributed to a sort of magic) for that which they do not understand. It is interesting what one can "prove" when one seeks to....
Ron E said:
Sure Ron, where / what are the claims?
From Fred's graphs there is an indication of lower distortion when the same driver is used in two different loading schemes. one a bass reflex and one a karlson coupler. The coupler is different and appears to be lower in distortion in his measurements . I don't remember Fred making that specific claimod lower distortion (even though he showed you what he has measured) and I've known him for years.
He does however claim he prefers the coupler for it's sound over other methods. I do too! I'll take a good coupler over a good bass reflex any day! Is that the claim you want him to prove?
Where is som one claiming a flat frequency respons? You mention that is a claim you want proof of. Who made that claim? Is that person here on earth still? Maybe I can go ask him through my Stargate for you?
If you ignore the fact that Karlsons are also BR, conceptually I see the coupler as a TL with a fancy termination.
The bad rep I think comes from the effect of the baffle wings in front of the drivers on the FR, reflections etc.
I'd like to see Ks built with the coupler loading the rear of the driver, so the front is just direct radiation.
(in fact, I've built something like this ages ago using 6" pipe, works pretty well considering the 4" drivers are a totally unknown quantity...)
The bad rep I think comes from the effect of the baffle wings in front of the drivers on the FR, reflections etc.
I'd like to see Ks built with the coupler loading the rear of the driver, so the front is just direct radiation.
(in fact, I've built something like this ages ago using 6" pipe, works pretty well considering the 4" drivers are a totally unknown quantity...)
PeteMcK said:
Well to people that like the 'reverb' or lively' sound the baffle is a blessing! The front cavity effect is what makes the coupler unique. To me it is a twin chamber bandpass box with a wide range bandpass exit that alters the radiation, frequency response (you do get a gain in the upper bass lower mid) - and SLAM range of the bass/mid..
It's kind of like this - ask someone that LOVES the sound of direct heated SET amp why they like it? They will say it is more direct, purer, more organic, live, natural ect... The couple has the same virtues (distortion- but no one will own up to it!? - that would be audiophile incorrect!)
To put the coupler on the back without the reflex port you'll end up with dipole that has an altered rear firing radiation pattern. I've done this and it can be better in the right situation than just mounting the driver on a board!
To put it on the back with the reflex port firing into the slot I believe all you'd get is a funny loaded reflex with too large of a port.
besides baffle tilt angle, flare of the upper half of the slot seems to adjust tonal and "reverb" balance -- -just blocking of damping a coupler's first inch of slot can change the perception but not show on RTA.
a certain amount of mechanical reverb can sound very good (a certain amount of the time) -- opening the starting aperture gap a lot in a vented coupler beyond Karlson's 3/8" to 1/2" (say 1-1.2") can push system Fb upwards as the front aperture is the final port. A large gap maybe with less flare might sound more open and harmonically rich than a choked start.
new couplers should have wings and gap trial and error adjusted for best subjective balance/. FR drivers with rising response or coaxial are needed
in a way a Karlson might allow solod-state to sound more "tubey"
in X-K15 size couplers I think the rear wave is doing some fill around 200-250 (?)
rear lowpass chokes can be helpful
strong motors are needed to control on strong transIent passages and good wattage could be used to good effect - -its silly to think in terms of 2 watts ampllifier on double kick drum.- give it 200 please.
I think new couplers can be made which sound pretty good -not to say K12 and K15 don't have good/fun performance with good coaxial - -some recordings sound very good with K15
lacking good coaxial, couplers can employ Karlson slotted-tube waveguide either inside or on top. If inside then there will be additional "reverb" (indirect components) added. If mounted in a narrow portion of the aperture, the tube's tip needs to be pretty close to the wing's fromt plane.
K15 is the reference to beat - - there might be a few K15 users still around (?0
what I don't know is how K15 performs with its driver hole blocked and driver mounted on the rear - -it might need somewhat lower tuning than normal via short duct added to its vent to find out
one more thing - does Metro's T-15 K-coupler woofer lack the reverb due to its slot arrangement?
a certain amount of mechanical reverb can sound very good (a certain amount of the time) -- opening the starting aperture gap a lot in a vented coupler beyond Karlson's 3/8" to 1/2" (say 1-1.2") can push system Fb upwards as the front aperture is the final port. A large gap maybe with less flare might sound more open and harmonically rich than a choked start.
new couplers should have wings and gap trial and error adjusted for best subjective balance/. FR drivers with rising response or coaxial are needed
in a way a Karlson might allow solod-state to sound more "tubey"
in X-K15 size couplers I think the rear wave is doing some fill around 200-250 (?)
rear lowpass chokes can be helpful
strong motors are needed to control on strong transIent passages and good wattage could be used to good effect - -its silly to think in terms of 2 watts ampllifier on double kick drum.- give it 200 please.
I think new couplers can be made which sound pretty good -not to say K12 and K15 don't have good/fun performance with good coaxial - -some recordings sound very good with K15
lacking good coaxial, couplers can employ Karlson slotted-tube waveguide either inside or on top. If inside then there will be additional "reverb" (indirect components) added. If mounted in a narrow portion of the aperture, the tube's tip needs to be pretty close to the wing's fromt plane.
K15 is the reference to beat - - there might be a few K15 users still around (?0
what I don't know is how K15 performs with its driver hole blocked and driver mounted on the rear - -it might need somewhat lower tuning than normal via short duct added to its vent to find out
one more thing - does Metro's T-15 K-coupler woofer lack the reverb due to its slot arrangement?
hi Ron - -build one and test it - -my health is gone -- re:Klipsch - those aren't great either and have colorations - I've 3-K-horn - for subjective -- Cogent's guys like K15.
do tubes (and "iron") add a type of microphonic reverb moreso than solid-state? if one can tap a tube and hear a "bong" does this imply there could be some low-level microphonic effects in play which are audible? I have a TVC and it subjectively adds layers of harmonics imo with a cheap solid state amp and horn system - -this can be perceived better or not as good as not having the device = recording dependent.
freddi said:
The way I look at transformers they all sound bad just some sound worse than others. In some cases they can sound better than an active device though. As in a step up for a moving coil...
I don't like the idea of otl tube power amps much but have little experience
do I have to "prove" the Karlson? - -don't see much proof nor data on other guy's stuff :^) - - - -I don't suggest they go "lower" than reflex for given bulk.
fwiw my outdoor graphs are pretty repeatable as done in same spot outdoors.
do I have to "prove" the Karlson? - -don't see much proof nor data on other guy's stuff :^) - - - -I don't suggest they go "lower" than reflex for given bulk.
fwiw my outdoor graphs are pretty repeatable as done in same spot outdoors.
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