Hi imix500,
I don't have anything new in manuals. Most of my documentation stayed with my shop when I sold it. At least 8 filing cabinets worth
. I really miss them.
The docs I do have are things I signed a NDA on. Also, my scanner is small and flaky. (old, it won't run on XP). It is better than the hand scanner I had.
You might say I'm manual hungry! 😉
-Chris
I don't have anything new in manuals. Most of my documentation stayed with my shop when I sold it. At least 8 filing cabinets worth
. I really miss them.The docs I do have are things I signed a NDA on. Also, my scanner is small and flaky. (old, it won't run on XP). It is better than the hand scanner I had.
You might say I'm manual hungry! 😉
-Chris
imix500, thanks for those incredible schematics. I will study them, but I will also keep them as a reference for future projects.
I check out lots of schematics when I try to do things.
You can post them here, at Audio Explorations.
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_preamp_source/browse_thread/thread/844f6608b617ae28?hl=en
It just can't be more than 1Meg per posting. You can do it by going to google, but I think it easier to do attachements by composing an email response.
So, you could set your preferences to EMAIL. Then post an announcement that the schematics are coming.
Then go to you email inbox and reply to that email, and attach files. Do this multiple times, until all the files have been posted.
I check out lots of schematics when I try to do things.
You can post them here, at Audio Explorations.
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_preamp_source/browse_thread/thread/844f6608b617ae28?hl=en
It just can't be more than 1Meg per posting. You can do it by going to google, but I think it easier to do attachements by composing an email response.
So, you could set your preferences to EMAIL. Then post an announcement that the schematics are coming.
Then go to you email inbox and reply to that email, and attach files. Do this multiple times, until all the files have been posted.
I'm manual hungry too. Nowdays, storing stuff on email accounts, and google groups seems to be the way.
But I've always been manual hungry.
Anatech, if you don't mind my asking, just my own curiosity, did the party who bought your shop still continue running it as a repair shop? Is this still going on?
I remember going down to a store and buying Sams PhotoFacts, to get the schematics to HiFi's and Television sets.
Often I had to special order them. But sometimes they were in stock.
I always said that supplying a schematic should be a requirement when the appliance is sold.
Of course nowdays that could be over the internet. But then, with these VLSI based digital appliances, a schematic doesn't do you that much good.
But I've always been manual hungry.
Anatech, if you don't mind my asking, just my own curiosity, did the party who bought your shop still continue running it as a repair shop? Is this still going on?
I remember going down to a store and buying Sams PhotoFacts, to get the schematics to HiFi's and Television sets.
Often I had to special order them. But sometimes they were in stock.
I always said that supplying a schematic should be a requirement when the appliance is sold.
Of course nowdays that could be over the internet. But then, with these VLSI based digital appliances, a schematic doesn't do you that much good.
When I was in high school, it was an ideal set up for making tube stuff.
We had everything. Variacs, isolation transformers, signal generators and oscilloscopes, RF generators, TV style sweep generators, and more.
We had a full metal working facility, including a great box and pan brake, with the movable fingers.
We even had a rotex punch, to make the circular holes up to 2".
And we had a huge cache of parts and junk of every imaginable type.
So to make something, once planned, start with flat metal.
Cut to shape. Layout all the holes and punch.
Then bend it.
Then take it to the metal shop and spot weld the corners.
Then begin constructing.
Making tube stuff with point to point wiring and tie points is great fun!!!.
We never had a decent PCB capability. So I usually used vector perf boards.
So great fun stuff was made, but not in current technology.
We had everything. Variacs, isolation transformers, signal generators and oscilloscopes, RF generators, TV style sweep generators, and more.
We had a full metal working facility, including a great box and pan brake, with the movable fingers.
We even had a rotex punch, to make the circular holes up to 2".
And we had a huge cache of parts and junk of every imaginable type.
So to make something, once planned, start with flat metal.
Cut to shape. Layout all the holes and punch.
Then bend it.
Then take it to the metal shop and spot weld the corners.
Then begin constructing.
Making tube stuff with point to point wiring and tie points is great fun!!!.
We never had a decent PCB capability. So I usually used vector perf boards.
So great fun stuff was made, but not in current technology.
Hi zenmasterbrian,
The sale was concluded in a manner that veered from the agreed upon path. I was happy to get out, so I didn't worry too much about it. I did decide to cut all ties to them. I found out about 8 months ago they were using my old tax number. This caused me some trouble that I hope has been straightened out. This is the kind of thing that is common with the guy that bought it, although I didn't think he was stupid enough to do what he did most recently. He has cost me thousands and would probably respond with an innocent stance if questioned. He is better out of my life.
Sadly, it took him less than a year to completely trash the reputation of the shop. Nakamichi dropped them with extreme prejudice, others followed suite. I think Sharp is his biggest line now.
-Chris
To the best of my knowledge, they are still in business. I believe they are still running as a service shop. Not a high end shop anymore. All I hear are complaints, and I don't really want to hear anything about them.
The sale was concluded in a manner that veered from the agreed upon path. I was happy to get out, so I didn't worry too much about it. I did decide to cut all ties to them. I found out about 8 months ago they were using my old tax number. This caused me some trouble that I hope has been straightened out. This is the kind of thing that is common with the guy that bought it, although I didn't think he was stupid enough to do what he did most recently. He has cost me thousands and would probably respond with an innocent stance if questioned. He is better out of my life.
Sadly, it took him less than a year to completely trash the reputation of the shop. Nakamichi dropped them with extreme prejudice, others followed suite. I think Sharp is his biggest line now.
-Chris
So what is the future for diy electronics?
Let me list some things that help or hurt, and explain why.
1. Printed circuit boards. Hurt. Impracticle for most DIY. Not impossible, but difficult or costly.
2. Analog ICs and small digital Ics, HELP, for sure.
3. Large digital ICs, broad busses, lots of connections, and even high speed. Hurt, really impractical to work with.
4. Things being cheap. Definitely helps. Just need to find ways to use it.
I feel that there is a tremendous future. But it depends on open standards and open architectures.
Look, how many electronics DIY people would try to make or repair a glass enveloped vacuum tube? Not many. Not since the 1920s.
So there can be DIY electronics, but just at a higher level. Some stuff you build and solder. But other stuff you use as modules.
Analog, and simple digital stuff you solder on vector boards. Power stuff you mount on the heat sinks. There is room for better heat sink kits. I've posted on this.
I'd like to start selling some discrete gain blocks. But we also have monolithic.
But the more complex digital stuff you do with premade boards. So long as there are standards and multiple sources, this is reliable.
You have boards for embedded processors, boards for DACs and ADCs, and boards for PIC controllers.
Then you program all this stuff through the USB.
You PC becomes your main digital tool.
So long as there are open software standards too, it can all work.
With enough leverage, the quality commercial builders can be made to comply with open standards. PCs are an open standard. Why shouldn't all the home digital media appliances be the same way.
TiVO, mythTV, the 7.1 AV recievers, video games, and PCs, can all be worked together into one open source system.
So you work with the software. You work with little interface and network board modules.
You download software from your PC into the boxes of your own creation.
Then you can build analog control preamps, if you want.
You can also build power amps, active crossovers, digital crossovers, etc.
It all depends on getting open standards for digital boards, and for the whole software spectrum.
They even have PC driven HAM radio sets. This could be DIY if you have these open standards. If the software is open, and if the digital boards are standardized, you can do it yourself.
There has never been much DIY television. Its too complex, and the highvoltage and all.
But again, if you have open standards, you could buy the picture tube, the deguass, the yoke and convergence and purity stuff on the neck, and then all the boards, and even the mounting bessel.
It all could work, if we have open standards.
People build their own PCs this way. It can work for everything else.
You make the enclosure. You mount premade digital boards and disc drives and blue tooth and wifi modules.
Then you add your own boards for the analog, the power handling, and some simple digital.
Then you adapt and configure the software.
It can work.
Commerical manufacturers always yield when there are clear standards.
Now true, the very smallest, densist stuff is against hobbyests. This stuff is always going to be disposable. Cell Phones, PDAs, and Blackberrys. I just ignore this stuff.
But truth is, if you can make something with a Blue tooth module, then those personal communicators can be the remote control for it!
Let me list some things that help or hurt, and explain why.
1. Printed circuit boards. Hurt. Impracticle for most DIY. Not impossible, but difficult or costly.
2. Analog ICs and small digital Ics, HELP, for sure.
3. Large digital ICs, broad busses, lots of connections, and even high speed. Hurt, really impractical to work with.
4. Things being cheap. Definitely helps. Just need to find ways to use it.
I feel that there is a tremendous future. But it depends on open standards and open architectures.
Look, how many electronics DIY people would try to make or repair a glass enveloped vacuum tube? Not many. Not since the 1920s.
So there can be DIY electronics, but just at a higher level. Some stuff you build and solder. But other stuff you use as modules.
Analog, and simple digital stuff you solder on vector boards. Power stuff you mount on the heat sinks. There is room for better heat sink kits. I've posted on this.
I'd like to start selling some discrete gain blocks. But we also have monolithic.
But the more complex digital stuff you do with premade boards. So long as there are standards and multiple sources, this is reliable.
You have boards for embedded processors, boards for DACs and ADCs, and boards for PIC controllers.
Then you program all this stuff through the USB.
You PC becomes your main digital tool.
So long as there are open software standards too, it can all work.
With enough leverage, the quality commercial builders can be made to comply with open standards. PCs are an open standard. Why shouldn't all the home digital media appliances be the same way.
TiVO, mythTV, the 7.1 AV recievers, video games, and PCs, can all be worked together into one open source system.
So you work with the software. You work with little interface and network board modules.
You download software from your PC into the boxes of your own creation.
Then you can build analog control preamps, if you want.
You can also build power amps, active crossovers, digital crossovers, etc.
It all depends on getting open standards for digital boards, and for the whole software spectrum.
They even have PC driven HAM radio sets. This could be DIY if you have these open standards. If the software is open, and if the digital boards are standardized, you can do it yourself.
There has never been much DIY television. Its too complex, and the highvoltage and all.
But again, if you have open standards, you could buy the picture tube, the deguass, the yoke and convergence and purity stuff on the neck, and then all the boards, and even the mounting bessel.
It all could work, if we have open standards.
People build their own PCs this way. It can work for everything else.
You make the enclosure. You mount premade digital boards and disc drives and blue tooth and wifi modules.
Then you add your own boards for the analog, the power handling, and some simple digital.
Then you adapt and configure the software.
It can work.
Commerical manufacturers always yield when there are clear standards.
Now true, the very smallest, densist stuff is against hobbyests. This stuff is always going to be disposable. Cell Phones, PDAs, and Blackberrys. I just ignore this stuff.
But truth is, if you can make something with a Blue tooth module, then those personal communicators can be the remote control for it!
Anatech,
I worked two times for places that repaired office eqipment. Mostly calculators, the electronic adding machines with printers.
Not clear to me if that would be a viable business today.
Certainly there needs to be some service, especially for high cost/ high end. But there needs to be warranty service too. At least warranty response of some type.
But using solder pots to get big chips out of boards is not lots of fun.
Thing is, most processor boards really are generic.
Who sells a PC that is not software compatible?
So if there is a market established for digital appliance put together from generic boards, people will go along with it.
I worked two times for places that repaired office eqipment. Mostly calculators, the electronic adding machines with printers.
Not clear to me if that would be a viable business today.
Certainly there needs to be some service, especially for high cost/ high end. But there needs to be warranty service too. At least warranty response of some type.
But using solder pots to get big chips out of boards is not lots of fun.
Thing is, most processor boards really are generic.
Who sells a PC that is not software compatible?
So if there is a market established for digital appliance put together from generic boards, people will go along with it.
Look at automobiles. You want all the goodies: Electronic variable valve timing, sequential fuel injection, ect?
Don't want it to be disposable?
Don't want 200 lbs of wires on it?
So imagine this. You look under the dash board. Actually, the passenger side of the dash board comes out, real easy. Then the electronics is there. No windshield leaks can ever go into the electronics.
You see it is a generic module!! Works for all makes, even custom and kit cars.
You download diag software from the internet. Plug your Linux based PC into it.
You can test every single sensor and actuator on the vehicle. Full documentation.
Serial busses link all the sub modules together, and they are all generic too.
Module for front lights. module for rear lights, module to drive instrument cluster, module for fuel injectors, for ignition, for engine sensors, for everything.
It is all generic.
You check eveything.
If you have an intermitent problem, you can tell the main computer to datalog.
If the main compute can't even talk over the usb, diagnose it with dip switches and LEDs on its board.
If the main computer dies, buy another one for $50. Then download the right software based on your VIN #.
Auto parts shop can do this. They can test all the modules too.
The jigs and test set up for all these modules is no big deal. You can even do it from your PC. Hook you PC to the fuel injector module. Test the output pulses to each injector. Same for headlight controller, etc.
If you suspect unreliable serial communications, you can have a special test jig hooked to your PC that monitors voltage levels and timing.
You can have a test set for the serial wiring too.
It all can be made to work that way if we develop a voice and start to use it!!!
Don't want it to be disposable?
Don't want 200 lbs of wires on it?
So imagine this. You look under the dash board. Actually, the passenger side of the dash board comes out, real easy. Then the electronics is there. No windshield leaks can ever go into the electronics.
You see it is a generic module!! Works for all makes, even custom and kit cars.
You download diag software from the internet. Plug your Linux based PC into it.
You can test every single sensor and actuator on the vehicle. Full documentation.
Serial busses link all the sub modules together, and they are all generic too.
Module for front lights. module for rear lights, module to drive instrument cluster, module for fuel injectors, for ignition, for engine sensors, for everything.
It is all generic.
You check eveything.
If you have an intermitent problem, you can tell the main computer to datalog.
If the main compute can't even talk over the usb, diagnose it with dip switches and LEDs on its board.
If the main computer dies, buy another one for $50. Then download the right software based on your VIN #.
Auto parts shop can do this. They can test all the modules too.
The jigs and test set up for all these modules is no big deal. You can even do it from your PC. Hook you PC to the fuel injector module. Test the output pulses to each injector. Same for headlight controller, etc.
If you suspect unreliable serial communications, you can have a special test jig hooked to your PC that monitors voltage levels and timing.
You can have a test set for the serial wiring too.
It all can be made to work that way if we develop a voice and start to use it!!!
Hi zenmasterbrian,
Okay, everyone runs usoft windblows. Feature rich software. 😉 Crash, crash and more crash. Then you have to buy the OS again to reboot you vehicle.
Automotive computers and data systems are very complex. Timing and data flow are critical. The modern car is exceptionally complex and proprietary.
Life is fine. Just play with things as they are.
-Chris
Okay, everyone runs usoft windblows. Feature rich software. 😉 Crash, crash and more crash. Then you have to buy the OS again to reboot you vehicle.
Automotive computers and data systems are very complex. Timing and data flow are critical. The modern car is exceptionally complex and proprietary.
Life is fine. Just play with things as they are.
-Chris
ever want to build a replica or kit car?
Ever want it to be modernized in its workings?
If the technology was sold in modular form, it could be done easily.
Likewise, if there were widely held standards for factory vehicles, replacement parts would be dirt cheap.
Why buy something incompatible.
Replacing the computer would be cheap when the software is separated from it.
Just look up the VIN, and download the identical factory software.
******
I saw this book, Building Extreme PCs. If you go to the web site, they have a sample chapter.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/buildpcs/chapter/index.html
Is all about radical and showing packaging and mechanicals.
I think DIY audio and DIY electronic could learn from this.
ZMB
Ever want it to be modernized in its workings?
If the technology was sold in modular form, it could be done easily.
Likewise, if there were widely held standards for factory vehicles, replacement parts would be dirt cheap.
Why buy something incompatible.
Replacing the computer would be cheap when the software is separated from it.
Just look up the VIN, and download the identical factory software.
******
I saw this book, Building Extreme PCs. If you go to the web site, they have a sample chapter.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/buildpcs/chapter/index.html
Is all about radical and showing packaging and mechanicals.
I think DIY audio and DIY electronic could learn from this.
ZMB
Hi zenmasterbrian,
I am curious about something.
There will never be completely common systems as each is built to a price point and to solve specific problems. Heck, even home PC's are about as similar as people (ie NOT!). Embedded operating systems (Linux normally) are stripped down versions with only what is required to get the job done.
When we look at audio systems, the LSI chips and processors are about as standard as you can get. They generally run on serial busses and have standardized over the years to only a few different systems. The rest of the circuitry generally runs to a few variations on some basic themes.
The only thing we can learn is how to sell the same box in a different skin. Hmm. Forget it. They already do that. It's called OEM manufacturing.
If you want to learn from recording consoles, or anything else, you'll have to study them. Break them down to their basic building blocks to determine what is common and what choices were made. This will not do as a mind exercise. To much room to talk in circles.
-Chris
I am curious about something.
Why do you think this would be easy or cheap?
There will never be completely common systems as each is built to a price point and to solve specific problems. Heck, even home PC's are about as similar as people (ie NOT!). Embedded operating systems (Linux normally) are stripped down versions with only what is required to get the job done.
When we look at audio systems, the LSI chips and processors are about as standard as you can get. They generally run on serial busses and have standardized over the years to only a few different systems. The rest of the circuitry generally runs to a few variations on some basic themes.
The only thing we can learn is how to sell the same box in a different skin. Hmm. Forget it. They already do that. It's called OEM manufacturing.
If you want to learn from recording consoles, or anything else, you'll have to study them. Break them down to their basic building blocks to determine what is common and what choices were made. This will not do as a mind exercise. To much room to talk in circles.
-Chris
Hi zenmasterbrian
i agree with you,you are right
standards are governed by big guys look at MS
they change windows all the time to make it harder
to bring a compatible system thats going to be
stadardised and modularised and thus easy to evolve
and price competitive
all this has been the result of pure industrial economics
make it disposable the less people are involved the bigger
share there is
this kind of attidute has killed a lot of industries and environments
that actually made the world a better place, the centralised of
certain industries has now been so dominant i doubt we'll see
a change in direction in the near future
john
i agree with you,you are right
standards are governed by big guys look at MS
they change windows all the time to make it harder
to bring a compatible system thats going to be
stadardised and modularised and thus easy to evolve
and price competitive
all this has been the result of pure industrial economics
make it disposable the less people are involved the bigger
share there is
this kind of attidute has killed a lot of industries and environments
that actually made the world a better place, the centralised of
certain industries has now been so dominant i doubt we'll see
a change in direction in the near future
john
Standards are changed often "under the table". For example, tax on vacuum was invented to force the industry to build smaller vacuum tubes to use for Forex games; now new laws will be used claiming that tubes contain hazardous matherials to kill them totally.
Hi fellow Gurus;
is it possible to find schematics for this noisy (as I heard a rumor) vintage beast TOA RX-216?
Anyway, I am going to rewire it completely using tubes for intputs, but anyway schematics would help.
It has a solid frame and nice input/output transformers, and plenty of room inside. I did not receive it yet, so can't tell for sure if potentiometers are still good. Also, it has a reverberator inside called "analog delay". What does it mean, a mechanical spring, ore some kind of charged cells?
I'll keep you informed about the project.
Here is the manual:
http://www.toaelectronics.com/disc/manuals/RX-208_212_216.pdf
is it possible to find schematics for this noisy (as I heard a rumor) vintage beast TOA RX-216?
Anyway, I am going to rewire it completely using tubes for intputs, but anyway schematics would help.
It has a solid frame and nice input/output transformers, and plenty of room inside. I did not receive it yet, so can't tell for sure if potentiometers are still good. Also, it has a reverberator inside called "analog delay". What does it mean, a mechanical spring, ore some kind of charged cells?
I'll keep you informed about the project.
Here is the manual:
http://www.toaelectronics.com/disc/manuals/RX-208_212_216.pdf
Hi Wavebourn,
You do know that those are live sound boards, right? Not a recording console.
For a project like this, look into a paper manual. Much of your circuitry will be new, so new power supplies for the tube section.
You might be further ahead to make a tube preamp outboard unit and patch them in as returns or line level inputs.
-Chris
You do know that those are live sound boards, right? Not a recording console.
For a project like this, look into a paper manual. Much of your circuitry will be new, so new power supplies for the tube section.
You might be further ahead to make a tube preamp outboard unit and patch them in as returns or line level inputs.
-Chris
anatech said:
No big difference between recording and live sound boards, they are well interchangeable.
Currently I use Yamaha MX400-24, it is huge and heavy, I am going to sell it. Despite it has great mic prfeamps, I use couple of outboard tube mic amps that sound better. It has lot of features I do not need, but does not have some feastures I would like to have. A first, I wanted to cannibalize Yamaha to build my own console for the specs and features I want, but decided to leave it alive. This TOA looks like a better candidate, it is twice smaller, has already nearly all holes I need, plus lot of space inside. And great mic/line transformers for clean balanced ins/outs.
Can anybody help with schematics? I sent email to TOA, but they don't answer... I've found a manual, but it contains no schematics...
...and anatech, thank you for the advices! However, I will not forget to plug it into 120V AC! 😀
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