That's why I suggested long time ago that only pictures directly uploaded should be accepted.
i actually remember this thread.
times fly, dammit
to answer OP, DIY imo makes sense especially when you want to challenge the big bucks systems.
to me, true hifi needs displacement. at least a 12" bass woofer (id argue its probably not enough). you also get the bonus of high efficiency when you use big woofers generally.
Yeah, before factoring in Xmax power handling, room gain we need a ~135" square baffle for 20 Hz if setting on and perpendcular to, a sufficiently rigid/massive surface and why short of a bass horn, in wall woofers was once the ~ideal for the low power systems of the times.
I agree.
For reference level / concert level dynamics (85dB average SPL at the listening position, with a further 20dB headroom) my system uses twin 12" woofers:
Some old photos and measurements:
Unfortunately, the design is not able to be built by others because the woofers (Peerless XXLS-P830845) are difficult to source, but even worse the midrange is somewhat of a unicorn (B&W LF26611 - a one-off custom FST) and virtually impossible to source- owned by probably only a handful of people in the world...
For reference level / concert level dynamics (85dB average SPL at the listening position, with a further 20dB headroom) my system uses twin 12" woofers:
Some old photos and measurements:
Unfortunately, the design is not able to be built by others because the woofers (Peerless XXLS-P830845) are difficult to source, but even worse the midrange is somewhat of a unicorn (B&W LF26611 - a one-off custom FST) and virtually impossible to source- owned by probably only a handful of people in the world...
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Depends on the frequency.
On baffle- driven with only 1.415V:
Conservative estimate on an infinite baffle (2pi): 98dB/2.83V
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Go ahead and laugh at my sub-C-note$ XO-less "TOTL LXmidi" 4+8 which uses honeycomb drivers (supposedly) from a very expensive "TOTL tower" (sold in China maybe ten years ago). My umbrella-stand folded-concentric TL is quite powerful and "straight". Anyone who wants to try the idea can use Mivoc drivers which are inexpensive.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-order-crossover-help.391332/post-7151405
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-order-crossover-help.391332/post-7151405
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I was Just looking at the Kartesian Mid120_vHE ...It should be on par with that B&W.
I did a large 3.5 way WWMTM with 2 x Peerless NE315W, 2 x NE149W and Bliesma T25B Be dome in sealed enclosures a few yrs ago for a guys home studio monitor setup. It turned out really nice.
The LF was active xover and EQed flat to 20 Hz with a Speakerpower SP700 plate amp. One of the NE315W was crossed with a huge coil at about 100 hz to make it a 3.5 way. The whole LF group was crossed at around 200 hz active through the SP700 to the mids. The MTM section ran from 200 hz on up crossed passive to the HF at 2.7 k LR2. The bass was very snappy being a sealed box and the mids blended seamlessly to the LF and HF with very believable precise holographic soundstage. There were dynamics to spare, especially in the mids and HF with those large VC drivers and Bliesma Be dome - this tweeter has become my.new favorite metal dome. I believe its the best Be dome you can currently buy.
The woofers were the real star in the design IMO. The bass was just effortless and real. I didn't do any distortion measurements, but it sounded like the HD was very low, especially in thr critical upper bass (likely the product of the sealed box with the woofers working in an acoustic suspension environment). The overall sound was like listening to a big electrostat, but with way more dynamic capability and wide listening window. I liked the design so much that I bought most of the parts to build it again. Too bad I didn't document the crossovers or enclosure dims, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out again. The mid xovers were tricky though. Getting the MTM lobing right was a challenge. The enclosure was huge, allowing the LF to work in acoustic suspension mode. I'll try to post some of this here once I start putting it together again.
The LF was active xover and EQed flat to 20 Hz with a Speakerpower SP700 plate amp. One of the NE315W was crossed with a huge coil at about 100 hz to make it a 3.5 way. The whole LF group was crossed at around 200 hz active through the SP700 to the mids. The MTM section ran from 200 hz on up crossed passive to the HF at 2.7 k LR2. The bass was very snappy being a sealed box and the mids blended seamlessly to the LF and HF with very believable precise holographic soundstage. There were dynamics to spare, especially in the mids and HF with those large VC drivers and Bliesma Be dome - this tweeter has become my.new favorite metal dome. I believe its the best Be dome you can currently buy.
The woofers were the real star in the design IMO. The bass was just effortless and real. I didn't do any distortion measurements, but it sounded like the HD was very low, especially in thr critical upper bass (likely the product of the sealed box with the woofers working in an acoustic suspension environment). The overall sound was like listening to a big electrostat, but with way more dynamic capability and wide listening window. I liked the design so much that I bought most of the parts to build it again. Too bad I didn't document the crossovers or enclosure dims, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out again. The mid xovers were tricky though. Getting the MTM lobing right was a challenge. The enclosure was huge, allowing the LF to work in acoustic suspension mode. I'll try to post some of this here once I start putting it together again.
You have good taste. Above 400 hz that B&W FST is a crazy good driver. The NE180 is also a great one from 200 to just beyond 2.5k if you notch out the small 4.5 k peak.
I have to ask if you've ever heard any of these "Top of the Line" monsters?
It's been a couple of decades since I've been to any "Hi-Fi and Sound" exhibitions, but the last time I did I wasn't impressed by any of the monsters I heard, although that was probably caused by the terrible listening rooms at the venue, Jeffs Shed in Melbourne is a rotten environment where sound is concerned.
I was totally underwhelmed by the renowned VAF signature and the huge Duntechs/ Dunlavy, again most probably the rooms fault, all of them were lacking bass with horribly forward midrange.
And I like big speakers and I mainly build big speakers.
If attacking a project like this ask yourself if you have a room suitable for such designs before spending the thousands of dollars
It's been a couple of decades since I've been to any "Hi-Fi and Sound" exhibitions, but the last time I did I wasn't impressed by any of the monsters I heard, although that was probably caused by the terrible listening rooms at the venue, Jeffs Shed in Melbourne is a rotten environment where sound is concerned.
I was totally underwhelmed by the renowned VAF signature and the huge Duntechs/ Dunlavy, again most probably the rooms fault, all of them were lacking bass with horribly forward midrange.
And I like big speakers and I mainly build big speakers.
If attacking a project like this ask yourself if you have a room suitable for such designs before spending the thousands of dollars
Here’s another speaker that is in the big category:
Jim Holtz / Curt Campbell’s Statements II
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statement_II_1.html
Again, unable to be built now because the midrange and tweeters are NLA.
I was very fortunate to have owned this speaker for about 4 years, having built it in 2015 soon after Jim’s release announcement; having always wanted a WMTMW in the Dunlavy tradition.
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum...ments-ii-a-musical-evolution/page3#post780336
Here it is in a 6x9x3.6m room.
Size reference: same (55”) TV as shown in previous post.
It did everything well for stereo 2 channel. But I had to sell it when I moved overseas, and had an offer I couldn’t refuse.
Years later I asked the new owner to sell it back to me. He declined. I guess there’s no real commercial equivalent that didn’t cost 6-8 times as much:
VAF I93mk3:
https://vaf.com.au/shop/ols/products/signature-i93mkiii
I was fortunate to have listened to this in the Australian manufacturers own acoustically treated private theatre sized listening room.
Jim Holtz / Curt Campbell’s Statements II
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statement_II_1.html
Again, unable to be built now because the midrange and tweeters are NLA.
I was very fortunate to have owned this speaker for about 4 years, having built it in 2015 soon after Jim’s release announcement; having always wanted a WMTMW in the Dunlavy tradition.
https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum...ments-ii-a-musical-evolution/page3#post780336
Here it is in a 6x9x3.6m room.
Size reference: same (55”) TV as shown in previous post.
It did everything well for stereo 2 channel. But I had to sell it when I moved overseas, and had an offer I couldn’t refuse.
Years later I asked the new owner to sell it back to me. He declined. I guess there’s no real commercial equivalent that didn’t cost 6-8 times as much:
VAF I93mk3:
https://vaf.com.au/shop/ols/products/signature-i93mkiii
I was fortunate to have listened to this in the Australian manufacturers own acoustically treated private theatre sized listening room.
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I wouldn't hesitate to build anything designed by Jim Holtz and Curt Campbell, their "The Bordeauxs" are a top-line floor standing speaker which look as if they would really be the business. High end drivers, but expensive in Oz.
I think Jim said in his write up that they were the best sounding speakers he and Curt had done, which says something! Not quite as large as the Statements.
Geoff
I think Jim said in his write up that they were the best sounding speakers he and Curt had done, which says something! Not quite as large as the Statements.
Geoff
Sadly, the Bordeaux is also in NLA because of a tweeter inconsistency issue, so that design has been pulled.
Apologies the Statement II can still be built; Meniscus still has stock. This may change in the coming months if the stock of Tymphany and Fountek drivers disappear.
Jim also has a large 3 way standmount called the Travellers (8”, 4”, 0.75” 3 way) which was released early 2020. The irony is that we all had to stay at home shortly thereafter.
@jholtz What are incredible few years Jim! Hope you are still travelling ok. Any plans to please follow this up with the WorkFromHome; speakers, with twin 8” now they only need 80L in vented box?
The MOQ with SBA is only is only 250 units, and you could have your own higher sensitivity narrow surround midrange based on SB15CAC…. to replace both the Statements and Bordeaux and respective centre channels.
Apologies the Statement II can still be built; Meniscus still has stock. This may change in the coming months if the stock of Tymphany and Fountek drivers disappear.
Jim also has a large 3 way standmount called the Travellers (8”, 4”, 0.75” 3 way) which was released early 2020. The irony is that we all had to stay at home shortly thereafter.
@jholtz What are incredible few years Jim! Hope you are still travelling ok. Any plans to please follow this up with the WorkFromHome; speakers, with twin 8” now they only need 80L in vented box?
The MOQ with SBA is only is only 250 units, and you could have your own higher sensitivity narrow surround midrange based on SB15CAC…. to replace both the Statements and Bordeaux and respective centre channels.
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The humblemade hifi video has a GIANT speaker on their front page that has a horn. I asked the owner and he said its not for sale and they don't offer any kits or plans for it. That thing must be insane.