I hope it's a 511. It would tough to think you could get 800Hz from the woofer off the walls and such. Even 500Hz seems a bit of a stretch without it being a trifle washed out or muddy and as John says:
400Hz to pass the torch? I might think even lower than that would help. But, as everyone knows, if it sounds good... 😉
400Hz to pass the torch? I might think even lower than that would help. But, as everyone knows, if it sounds good... 😉
I meant - as highest usable F ;
once - in a previous life - I made tube pre , tube PP monoblocks (for squaker and tweeter ) , tweaked some sand amp for woofs and tube 2-way xover ;
all that for KH , what else ;
I made a mistake listening to owner ( not measuring original xover ) - he told me 500Hz is good point ;
some 400km later , I decide that 375Hz is best I can , for both woof horn and original K400 ( if I remember correctly ) ... even if K400 is running of steam that low , on 18db/oct electrically
remaining elements from passive xover were just matching xformer and cap on tweet
Would some people say instead, "Time alignment is a theoretical problem"?
BTW, although I am keen on Klipschorn bass, warts, lack of deep bass, and all, I am no fan of the sound of their upper two horns. And the upper two horns as Klipsch suggested mounting the speakers, fulfill somewhat Geddes directivity criteria.
Geddes mentions or hints or addresses Klipschorn-like corner placement in passing somewhere although I don't remember what lessons he offered from that.
About crossover points, since I have wonnerful full-range ESLs, the Klipschorn comes in around 110 Hz (formerly 140) and with a sharp electronic crossover, of course. Not sure I would favor them too much higher, even if I owned two for stereo. 110 Hz isn't a bad place at which to divide off the great power demands of bass from the subtle clarity issues of higher frequencies.
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Beautiful speaker - but look at that deck out there! That deck rules. Nice place.
(btw, looks like an 811 horn to me)
(btw, looks like an 811 horn to me)
The Klipsch K77 tweeter is poor as well as the used mid drivers.
Replace the tweeters by Electrovoice T350 much better (I have them for sale)
Better mid drivers are EV 1823M or 1824M (ibid)
But if you want really good sound get a pair of Jabo KH-75 mid horns!!!
These monsters are 72cm wide and coupled with vintage JBL 2482 drivers the sound is awesome! BMS4592 also works, but is brighter (ibid) The Jabos are made by Werner Jagusch in Oldenburg, Germany
Also get the autoformers from Werner Jagusch! And a pair of JBL baby-butt tweeters; JBL2404.
The acoustical image is so excellent it would resurrect Paul Klipsch from his grave...
Replace the tweeters by Electrovoice T350 much better (I have them for sale)
Better mid drivers are EV 1823M or 1824M (ibid)
But if you want really good sound get a pair of Jabo KH-75 mid horns!!!
These monsters are 72cm wide and coupled with vintage JBL 2482 drivers the sound is awesome! BMS4592 also works, but is brighter (ibid) The Jabos are made by Werner Jagusch in Oldenburg, Germany
Also get the autoformers from Werner Jagusch! And a pair of JBL baby-butt tweeters; JBL2404.
The acoustical image is so excellent it would resurrect Paul Klipsch from his grave...
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I am puzzled in looking at that picture. Don't you need a top (something solid, covering the bass unit and running from wall to wall, covering at least as much area as the mid-range assembly) on top of the Klipschorn bass? I thought the design required it and Klipsch wanted it?
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Yes you are right, the top plate is removed in the picture.
As concerning the bass it's not critical. Some even prefer the KHorn slightly pulled out of the corner. The weak point of the bass horn is it's upper end; it hardly reaches 400Hz. By crossing the Jabos at about 200Hz this problem is also much improved.
It' s important having real room corners, not some sort of room divider.
Yes you are right, the top plate is removed in the picture.
As concerning the bass it's not critical. Some even prefer the KHorn slightly pulled out of the corner. The weak point of the bass horn is it's upper end; it hardly reaches 400Hz. By crossing the Jabos at about 200Hz this problem is also much improved.
It' s important having real room corners, not some sort of room divider.
Thanks for reply - my top is very heavy and I keep my wine rack on top of that! But I am confused in other ways.
What advantage pulling horn away from corner? Some people do the opposite and try to improve the air-seal into the corner (although that makes no sense to me with 10 foot waves not caring about a few inches into the apex of the corner).
I often argue that any crossover south of maybe 150 Hz lets you move around the woofer or even go mixed-bass. I guess that horrifies people who think you need millimeter time alignments and fuss about stereo geometry.
When you use the Khorn ONLY below 200 Hz, then time alignment is not much of a problem, BUT at 400 Hz, right in the middle of the action, real problems develop.
Tweeters for K horn
I built a pair of Speakerlab K-horns in the early 1980s. I never liked horn tweeters; by sheer luck I instead used a pair of ESL air motion transformers as tweeters. They are very efficient and match the mid and bass horn efficiencies wonderfully. The combination sounded great tied to a pair of Dyna mono 45w/ch amps. Highly recommended if you can find AMT drivers.
I built a pair of Speakerlab K-horns in the early 1980s. I never liked horn tweeters; by sheer luck I instead used a pair of ESL air motion transformers as tweeters. They are very efficient and match the mid and bass horn efficiencies wonderfully. The combination sounded great tied to a pair of Dyna mono 45w/ch amps. Highly recommended if you can find AMT drivers.
"....
What advantage pulling horn away from corner? Some people do the opposite and try to improve the air-seal into the corner (although that makes no sense to me with 10 foot waves not caring about a few inches into the apex of the corner).
...."
Ben, That is a reasonable question. The phenomenon is that without a tight seal to the wall there is a drop out of a few-to-several dB in the 250-400 Hz region (or so). The problem is not in the very low freqeuncy regions. This phenomenon is empirical and I have yet to see an easy to understand description of the physics behind it (other than re-stating that it occurs)
The later Klipschorns were equiped with a rubber seal / gasket for both the vertical and horizonatal portions that touch the wall. It is an easy enough retro-fit.
What advantage pulling horn away from corner? Some people do the opposite and try to improve the air-seal into the corner (although that makes no sense to me with 10 foot waves not caring about a few inches into the apex of the corner).
...."
Ben, That is a reasonable question. The phenomenon is that without a tight seal to the wall there is a drop out of a few-to-several dB in the 250-400 Hz region (or so). The problem is not in the very low freqeuncy regions. This phenomenon is empirical and I have yet to see an easy to understand description of the physics behind it (other than re-stating that it occurs)
The later Klipschorns were equiped with a rubber seal / gasket for both the vertical and horizonatal portions that touch the wall. It is an easy enough retro-fit.
Hi, I was told the German Importer that time Audio Int' l liked the horns pulled from the corners.
I push them as far as I can into the apex which is even a little farther with the top plate removed.
I push them as far as I can into the apex which is even a little farther with the top plate removed.
That's a good way to put it. I wonder if it's unfair, though. It would be interesting to measure a tapped horn for group delay etc and see if it is really inferior. I'm wondering if it is really fair to classify all resonant devices into one lump-they don't all work on the same principles, so we shouldn't expect a Bose Acoustic Cannon to sound the same as a Bose front/rear bandpass or the same as a tapped horn.
I have no evidence, but my impression is that any resonance or peak will give a speaker system a characteristic sound. That's correct for instruments but quite incorrect for a speaker. Indeed, in the 1970's some fun was maliciously poked at "New England Sound" (AKA AR, Kloss, KLH...) for not being "lively" like "West Coast Sound" (Altec, JBL) because they were without resonances.
Except that some very low resonance, under 40 Hz, works well and/or actually corrects the total speaker/room/ears response just fine... for music.
The super woofer people with movie earthquake sounds at 16 Hz have other, sophisticated views of what is needed down far below music levels.
Footnote: see Ruffatti Organ thread where a very collaborative discussion is taking place about what notes organs make and where, if anywhere, they occur on recordings.
Hello all. I just re-visited my old K-Horn post, and read all the responses. Regarding the Altec sectoral horn, I was told it was a 511 from the people who sold to me. The total package advertised as "Voice of the Theater". The opening measures 16" X 7". So maybe it is actually 800 Hz? That might be a problem because my crossover is at about 500 Hz.
Those windows face out to my rear deck, which measures about 80 ft in length! Total property is about 8 acres here near Eugene, Oregon.
Floyd
Those windows face out to my rear deck, which measures about 80 ft in length! Total property is about 8 acres here near Eugene, Oregon.
Floyd
We're all caught up in terrible hubris about our ability to judge this and that in our music systems. You need tools or at least a sophisticated knowledge of how to conduct tests with human judges.
Clear as day what's cookin' around your crossover point once you buy a mic and get free software like REW. But thinking about doing it by ear, you are just fooling yourself (and us too).
Ben
Clear as day what's cookin' around your crossover point once you buy a mic and get free software like REW. But thinking about doing it by ear, you are just fooling yourself (and us too).
Ben
Adding only as I don't see it mentioned; the Crites replacement tweeters are a huge step up from the stock tweeter and probably the most inexpensive direct drop-in change you could make. I moved my tweet and squawk mounting to the front of the panel rather than behind, and that does good things as well, takes a bit of finicky woodworking though.
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