Kef Concerto or Kef Reference 104.2 ?
Short question.
Which of these speakers sound the best : Kef Concerto or Kef Reference 104.2 ?
I own Kef Concertos.
(25 – 40000 Hz).
The Concertos give a great bass (from 25Hz?).
Kef Reference 104.2 speakers produce less bass (only from 55Hz) without Kef Kube.
(55-20000Hz). And I like bass-tones a lot, so I would probably also have to buy a Kef Kube (or other subwoofer) to be able to produce the same bass sounds?
But I read great reviews about the sound of the Kef Reference 104.2. The Reference 104.2 speakers are also a few years younger than the Concertos, which of course doesn't mean that they should sound better by definition. And some people write they produce enough bass without a subwoofer
I am also aware of the fact that the foam of the B110(SP1190) woofers is usually rotten after all these years and so will more than likely need to be replaced.
In some cases, the T33 (SP1191) tweeters must also have to be replaced (often they do it by MOREL MDT29 4Ohm Soft Dome - Liquid Cooled Tweeters.)
But suppose both sets of speakers are in good condition : which set do you think sounds best?
Or do you think it would be better for me to keep the Concertos?
(I should add that I currently have 2 sets of Kef Concertos and 1 set of Kef Cadenzas (in my garage). So maybe I could possibly replace the Cadenza's with a pair of my Kef Concerto's , and in the living room I then would replace the Concerto's by Reference 104.2.)
I have several spare parts for the Concerto's : 2x B139 and 6x B27 (SP1032)...
Thank you very much for your feedback.
Eric
Short question.
Which of these speakers sound the best : Kef Concerto or Kef Reference 104.2 ?
I own Kef Concertos.
(25 – 40000 Hz).
The Concertos give a great bass (from 25Hz?).
Kef Reference 104.2 speakers produce less bass (only from 55Hz) without Kef Kube.
(55-20000Hz). And I like bass-tones a lot, so I would probably also have to buy a Kef Kube (or other subwoofer) to be able to produce the same bass sounds?
But I read great reviews about the sound of the Kef Reference 104.2. The Reference 104.2 speakers are also a few years younger than the Concertos, which of course doesn't mean that they should sound better by definition. And some people write they produce enough bass without a subwoofer
I am also aware of the fact that the foam of the B110(SP1190) woofers is usually rotten after all these years and so will more than likely need to be replaced.
In some cases, the T33 (SP1191) tweeters must also have to be replaced (often they do it by MOREL MDT29 4Ohm Soft Dome - Liquid Cooled Tweeters.)
But suppose both sets of speakers are in good condition : which set do you think sounds best?
Or do you think it would be better for me to keep the Concertos?
(I should add that I currently have 2 sets of Kef Concertos and 1 set of Kef Cadenzas (in my garage). So maybe I could possibly replace the Cadenza's with a pair of my Kef Concerto's , and in the living room I then would replace the Concerto's by Reference 104.2.)
I have several spare parts for the Concerto's : 2x B139 and 6x B27 (SP1032)...
Thank you very much for your feedback.
Eric
Rime for a custom design. The XO (and other detaisl) of Concerto are not great, bass is good, could be better. Ref has a PR i neber really liked the bottom. The larger midbass also does not do as well to reach the T27.
4 B139 in a big push-push TL and little satelittes with B110/T27. And new XOs.
dave
4 B139 in a big push-push TL and little satelittes with B110/T27. And new XOs.
dave
Forget 104/2 if you like low end, also K-tube is not so good with this loudspeaker. The big plus of Kef104. is its soundstage and imaging as good as best recent loudspeaker that are well made, it can disseaper in your living room but the visual that is beautiful but matter on own tastes. And also good balance that allow hours of listenning without fatigue.
The big...Huge bad side is the recaping that is one if not the most complex ever... marked values on the caps are saying nothing and values are hard to find (though Falcon should have few at 5% only... and even at 2% they never knew the close real valors of the shunt caps that are mandatories to have a tigth bass from this high F3 (ok it's sealed, so you do not care, look at F10). To me a marvelous loudspeaker bu a b...h to refurbish (not a monney friendly loudspeaker... but a clever one !). An excellent loudspeaker for jazz and classic but if you miss the rigth caps values in the notch and low/high pass mid then it can be boomy at recaping : ask a lot of care and itterative tries if not a Minidsp help, or if you have not tons of caps (and guess the filter platins is the worst to remoce ever !) to find near half of 1 uF value on a hundred value notch cap... jus a nigthmare but that worths it ! A collector.
The big...Huge bad side is the recaping that is one if not the most complex ever... marked values on the caps are saying nothing and values are hard to find (though Falcon should have few at 5% only... and even at 2% they never knew the close real valors of the shunt caps that are mandatories to have a tigth bass from this high F3 (ok it's sealed, so you do not care, look at F10). To me a marvelous loudspeaker bu a b...h to refurbish (not a monney friendly loudspeaker... but a clever one !). An excellent loudspeaker for jazz and classic but if you miss the rigth caps values in the notch and low/high pass mid then it can be boomy at recaping : ask a lot of care and itterative tries if not a Minidsp help, or if you have not tons of caps (and guess the filter platins is the worst to remoce ever !) to find near half of 1 uF value on a hundred value notch cap... jus a nigthmare but that worths it ! A collector.
Last edited:
Are you kidding? I always felt they imaged like crap. Kinda boxy so the speaker is clearly audiable as a box in the room. Even in its day it was not a standout.
dave
No, maybe your room was not good, in mine those speakers disseapered ! Maybe you never listened one brand new or well refurbished maybe, or your expectations are far above mines (that are high). Are you speaking of the Kef 104/2 Ref ? Cause the simple 104 was indeed very a boom box. Old Kef104/2 after 20 years were boomy due to the notches and mid high pass filters values drift however !
Edit : and not talking also about the foam mushrooms and the versions with foam surrounds for the cone woofers (mine had NOT the rubber surround but had to refurbish the foam mushrooms to avoid leaks (or leaks absortion more accuratly speaking perhaps) and catch back a near genuine Qms!))
Edit : and not talking also about the foam mushrooms and the versions with foam surrounds for the cone woofers (mine had NOT the rubber surround but had to refurbish the foam mushrooms to avoid leaks (or leaks absortion more accuratly speaking perhaps) and catch back a near genuine Qms!))
Last edited:
I heard them in quite a few different rooms and support kit.
That is certainly possible.
dave
That is certainly possible.
dave
What you missed , Excellent speakers but the early cut off that sounds good enough in most rooms according the playback material ! For sure it lacks a F3 at 35 hZ I like most but anyway it's sealed aperiodic so the 50/55 hz F3 of the two woofers are not the one of a single 6.5 for illustration (hence the b...h to refurbish).
Not a kit, so I re ask : do you talk about the Kef 104/2 with its passive radiator ?
Not a kit, so I re ask : do you talk about the Kef 104/2 with its passive radiator ?
Do I said F3 was about soundstage ? No. That is you that talk about boomy hence my further F3 and F10 inputs.
I dunno in what conditions your street buddy amped it and loaded it. We disagree then and it is not usefull for the op. I will just say to avoid it because the refurbishing complexity and cost. The kef 107 ref was better low end...but soundstage...not sure, imho, YMMV, etc.
I dunno in what conditions your street buddy amped it and loaded it. We disagree then and it is not usefull for the op. I will just say to avoid it because the refurbishing complexity and cost. The kef 107 ref was better low end...but soundstage...not sure, imho, YMMV, etc.
Never heard any KEF Reference 104.2 but own some Concertos.
Like them best raised off the floor on stands. The crossovers are not the best and benefit from upgrades to the caps and inductors.
(Probably complete crossover replacement from Falcon)
Wiring and crossover board connector are not wonderful either.
I think with a few tweaks the Concertos could keep you statisfied.
I just wish they were not so damm ugly!
Like them best raised off the floor on stands. The crossovers are not the best and benefit from upgrades to the caps and inductors.
(Probably complete crossover replacement from Falcon)
Wiring and crossover board connector are not wonderful either.
I think with a few tweaks the Concertos could keep you statisfied.
I just wish they were not so damm ugly!
Last edited by a moderator:
Bottomline (imho) : forget the 104.2's and focus on improving the CO's of the Concerto's.
Or: choose a different vintage loudspeaker which is better than the Kef Concerto.
Anyone have a suggestion from the Kef range?
Maybe the IQ9 or IQ90?
Because I noticed that most speakers Kef produced after the 1970s, significantly produced less low tones
For instance :
Concertos : from 25Hz.
(Cadenza’s from 30Hz)
103.4s from 50Hz.
104.2s from 55Hz.
And I'm a big fan of those low tones.
I also love the English quality and solidity of Kef loudspeakers.
I bought my first Concerto's in 1972 I think.
And still love the sound of them.
In that period, also Wharfedales were very popular I remember.
Or: choose a different vintage loudspeaker which is better than the Kef Concerto.
Anyone have a suggestion from the Kef range?
Maybe the IQ9 or IQ90?
Because I noticed that most speakers Kef produced after the 1970s, significantly produced less low tones
For instance :
Concertos : from 25Hz.
(Cadenza’s from 30Hz)
103.4s from 50Hz.
104.2s from 55Hz.
And I'm a big fan of those low tones.
I also love the English quality and solidity of Kef loudspeakers.
I bought my first Concerto's in 1972 I think.
And still love the sound of them.
In that period, also Wharfedales were very popular I remember.
Wants a Coles 4001 to augment the T27.
https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/c...gers-monitor-upgrade-super-power-network.html
Or if you biamp you could use this one (ouch):
https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/b...ohm-gold-badge-bbc-fl6-23-assembled-pair.html
dave
KEF Concerto frequency response is -10dB at 25 Hz, see factory measurements on page 3:
https://usermanual.wiki/m/9682a9ed9b75ef74a57ab476a114aca0d4cd674b4c935ac569731cb47a6a789e.pdf
KEF 104.2 frequency response is factory specified as 55-20000 Hz at +/- 2 dB. So, it is either -2dB at 55 Hz (best case), or -4 dB at 55Hz (worst case).
So, apples and oranges comparison, we don't know what is the frequency cutoff at -10dB for KEF 104.2
And I'm a big fan of those low tones.
If you want British vintage loudspeaker with KEF drivers and low tones then an obvious candidate would be the transmission line speakers from IMF, Cambridge and the like. There seems to be a few knocking around on ebay for a few hundred pounds. There are also one or two DIY designs from this period if you fancy reusing some of your current drivers.
Of course speakers of this age will almost certainly be out of spec due to deterioration and if brought back into spec for significant cost and effort (e.g. new drivers and crossover parts from Falcon) will still only offer technical performance from 50 years ago rather than what can be achieved today with modern parts, designs and manufacture. If technical sound quality is important then it is unlikely to be cost effective but if you value this type of vintage speaker as a vintage speaker then such a restoration project might be personally fun and worthwhile despite the cost of restoration likely exceeding the increase in resale price for a restored speaker.
well, you wanted opinions and you certainly got 'em!
I've been the original owner of my 104/2 since the 1980s (so these are not the ones built with the bi-amping terminals).
In the rooms where I've had them, the bass was great and the imaging was fantastic, not "boxy" at all.
But I always keep them out of corners and away from "up against the wall".
I've replaced the tweeters some years ago and am still happy with the speakers.
I occasionally tried these with the corresponding Kube, but it never did enough for me to want one.
I didn't do extensive comparisons with the Concertos (meaning I did not bring them home and live with them), but I did listen for quite a bit. I thought they were nice, but liked the 104/2 better. Yes, I could replace them with something I'm sure I'd like better, but I'd have to spend A LOT more $$ than I'm willing to these days. Plus, mine are the Rosewood finish, so I like the way they look, too.
Good luck,
mlloyd1
I've been the original owner of my 104/2 since the 1980s (so these are not the ones built with the bi-amping terminals).
In the rooms where I've had them, the bass was great and the imaging was fantastic, not "boxy" at all.
But I always keep them out of corners and away from "up against the wall".
I've replaced the tweeters some years ago and am still happy with the speakers.
I occasionally tried these with the corresponding Kube, but it never did enough for me to want one.
I didn't do extensive comparisons with the Concertos (meaning I did not bring them home and live with them), but I did listen for quite a bit. I thought they were nice, but liked the 104/2 better. Yes, I could replace them with something I'm sure I'd like better, but I'd have to spend A LOT more $$ than I'm willing to these days. Plus, mine are the Rosewood finish, so I like the way they look, too.
Good luck,
mlloyd1
Never heard the Concertos, but have owned the KEF Cadenzas, 104Ab's, and currently the 104/2. The Cadenza, 104Ab, and Concerto are all kind of the same family of speaker, same T27 tweeter, and similar mid drivers. The 104/2 is something different altogether. We are talking vintage sound vs modern sound. As said above, the sound stage and imaging with the 104/2 is in another league, but i would not recomend them if your a "bass head" as they do have some drastic roll off at the very low end. The 104 Kube helps massively to even out the low frequency response, but again, if you want bass in the face these are not for you. They are all about refinement, the 104Ab's were a lovely speaker, but you were listening to the speaker, no so with the /2's.
As for restoration, and they will need it at this stage. You going to be into re foaming the four low frequency drivers, cleaning out and replacing the ferro fluid in the two tweeters, and then there is the crossovers which are huge with 16 capacitors on each board. It will take some commitment to get them back to full health. They are also a very large speaker at 3 foot tall and 32kg each, and do not like being pushed up against a wall so finding a home for them might pose a challenge.
As for restoration, and they will need it at this stage. You going to be into re foaming the four low frequency drivers, cleaning out and replacing the ferro fluid in the two tweeters, and then there is the crossovers which are huge with 16 capacitors on each board. It will take some commitment to get them back to full health. They are also a very large speaker at 3 foot tall and 32kg each, and do not like being pushed up against a wall so finding a home for them might pose a challenge.
Attachments
About the Concerto crossovers …
I have already recapped my 2 sets of Concerto’s.
Set I witch Alcaps from Falcon. (see image)
Set II with Mundorfs. (see image)
The inductors of both crossovers are still the same.
Would it really be recommended to replace these as well?
From set II, I removed the connector as it was severely corroded.
I was advised to use a Phoenix-connector instead (PTS 1,5/ 8-7,5-H 1703091 PHOENIX CONTACT PCB terminal block or Phoenix Printed circuit board terminal - PT 2,5/ 8-7,5-H – 1988163 ), but I soldered the wires directly to the filter. A lot cheaper … and quite difficult AND expensive to buy in Belgium
(see image)
Other members of this forum also advised me to modify the CO to an acoustic butterworth circuit…but this is way to complicated for me.
Another solution would be to buy and install the upgraded concerto crossovers (incorporating a simplified version of the acoustic butterworth section fort he T27).
That's correct : they are very ugly , but it's the sound that takes precedence for me.
