SY said:
Being over 65 years old, I'm probably too old to hear 20 KHz, however, I'm not too old to hear the SQ of a system. Actually, I hear nuances that some much younger men don't hear.
Actually, it is fairly easy, just get the diameter of the metal in the wire, either stranded or unstranded and look it up on a chart.
john curl said:
John,
Let me understand correctly: so you released a new design, I suppose you listened to it and you were happy with the sound. Then came the review (and, after Andy's finding, so much for those guys "not knowing" about the opamp) and you decided to change the design to full discrete.
Why?
I see two options here:
1. Your listening abilities were not at par with the expectations. If you can't properly evaluate your own creations, then how could your hearing being trusted for evaluating copper vs. silver?
2. You decided to change the design to make the reviewers happy and eventually successfully sell the amp.
If you do not care about the reviewers, and you do trust your hearing, you should not change a design but stand behind it. You did change it, and this is called "sucking" in my books.
john curl said:
No, you are a physicist, ready (according to your own statement)to consider any perpetuum mobile new idea.
I have a lifetime membership in the IEEE. That makes me enough of an 'engineer' to call myself one when I want to. Actually, I have a degree in Engineering-Physics, with the major in Physics and the minor in electronic engineering. All subsequent courses into grad school level were engineering. Some of my instructors were Dorf, R.G. Meyer, Don Pederson, Orchard, Camenzind (the guy who invented the 555) and of course, self instruction. Look them up, wise guy!
syn08 said:
JC answered it in his initial post (or what I get from it):
The OpAmp was a compromise demanded by the manufacturer.
The result of the review helped change that compromise.
However, this story is yet another demonstration of the difference between measured results and audible results.
active devices
beyond onorous selection of like active components when designing a sand or valve amplification device, seeing as all the focus seems to be on "magic cables", anyone give a rats ^&% as to all the variables unaccounted for in fabrication of the ACTIVE components of their designs?
there are all sorts of tolerance gotcha's in, for instance, doping profiles of p-n junctions in semis, or micro-surface profile space-charge effects of screens in tubies, to name a few. Anyone even pay attention to what effect any of these variables might just have on reproduction? Or is it a given that the ERFC kinetics of diffusivity of phosphoruos or arsenic in silicon be simply taken for granted?
Seems to be alot of noise about mono-xtal grain-boundary-less cable fabrication and associated costs, silver vs. copper, etc. but little if any steed paid to the inability to measure thermal conditions accurately for pre-dep or drive-in diffusion directly during mfg. of active devices, or analogous problems in valve fabrication.
Just wondering what detailed inspection anyone may have made re: audibility of some of these obvious problem variables, especially in light of the ongoing decades old cable debate...
John L.
beyond onorous selection of like active components when designing a sand or valve amplification device, seeing as all the focus seems to be on "magic cables", anyone give a rats ^&% as to all the variables unaccounted for in fabrication of the ACTIVE components of their designs?
there are all sorts of tolerance gotcha's in, for instance, doping profiles of p-n junctions in semis, or micro-surface profile space-charge effects of screens in tubies, to name a few. Anyone even pay attention to what effect any of these variables might just have on reproduction? Or is it a given that the ERFC kinetics of diffusivity of phosphoruos or arsenic in silicon be simply taken for granted?
Seems to be alot of noise about mono-xtal grain-boundary-less cable fabrication and associated costs, silver vs. copper, etc. but little if any steed paid to the inability to measure thermal conditions accurately for pre-dep or drive-in diffusion directly during mfg. of active devices, or analogous problems in valve fabrication.
Just wondering what detailed inspection anyone may have made re: audibility of some of these obvious problem variables, especially in light of the ongoing decades old cable debate...
John L.
john curl said:
Com on, John Curl!
You are an engineer, no doubt. However, you are much more than just "an engineer"!
The products you designed are saying it.
I have defined myself as a design engineer for the last 40 years, at least. I joined the IEEE as a student in 1965, and became a member of the IEEE in 1966. Darn, I just remembered that I have to pay my dues for next year!
My hunch says active component selection come first – not to understate the importance of cables.
john curl said:
May I define you, for myself, as more than only an engineer? Like someone to be inspired by, concerning SOTA audio gear design and building?
Joshua_G said:
Really? You think??
I'm 42 and can't hear much above 13-14K. I often pretend I can distinguish the difference between two interconnects or cables, but that is for laughs only.
Well that's the point. I am not the very best electronics engineer, even though I have developed RF power amps, and high voltage power supplies and switches for laser control systems, super motor drives, and optical controlled velocity servos for tape tension control. I can't do what some electronics engineers can do, so when I get a project over my head, I farm it out, without any added cost, to one of my colleagues. I would hope that they would do the same for me. By the way Audiowolf, want to tart up a Studer A80-2 to Levinson quality levels? I have the client for you! I am getting too old and tired for this sort of thing.
Hearing cable differences does not seem to depend on age or hearing response. Just knowing what audio quality is.
I really enjoy building things and I love music. I like to build thing to listen to music but I rue the day when I stop enjoying music because I'm spending the experience listening for defects in my setup.
A better cable - maybe, but I'll not spend one tenth of a second listening for the difference.
A better cable - maybe, but I'll not spend one tenth of a second listening for the difference.
Until you fly the plane, drive the racecar you really do not know how it will feel or perform. You'll likely know an awful lot about it, but it's still not the same as actually interacting with it dynamically.
There is no doubt that there are all sorts of higher order and lower order variables in each and every electronic part. I doubt if there is anyone here that would not be able to measure a difference between any two supposedly identical electronic parts?
Measuring the difference and experiencing the difference as a human are very different and often difficult to correlate.
If you have never flown an airplane or driven a car, talking about it ain't the same as doing it. Never having done that with a particular high performance plane or car, similarly leaves one without a true basis for much more than "armchair quarterbacking." And, if you've never reached beyond a mediocre level in these sorts of things, it's still difficult to truly grasp the experience.
For example the type and tension of the strings on my tennis racket (not to mention the frame, the weight, the balance) were rather critical for my game (at one time...) if they were off a bit it was actually hard to place the ball and if they were a bit loose, difficult to keep the ball in play. Most people might not notice any of this. This is pretty darn subtle stuff. To me it was big like a house.
I think that what KBK said about things standing out in stark relief is spot on... although the entire equation or receipe for a system to do that is non-trivial and not simple, and defies parameterization and straightforward measurements (as of today).
You figure out how it applies to this audio reproduction thing... remember that for most people that Bose Wave Radio is really good!
But rather than devolve into this ABX/DBT/Cable debate, let's talk about something more specific to the Blowtorch and/or perhaps the differential measured vs. sonics of that AD opamp vs. discrete JFET front end, and how that relates to perception & design??
_-_-bear
There is no doubt that there are all sorts of higher order and lower order variables in each and every electronic part. I doubt if there is anyone here that would not be able to measure a difference between any two supposedly identical electronic parts?
Measuring the difference and experiencing the difference as a human are very different and often difficult to correlate.
If you have never flown an airplane or driven a car, talking about it ain't the same as doing it. Never having done that with a particular high performance plane or car, similarly leaves one without a true basis for much more than "armchair quarterbacking." And, if you've never reached beyond a mediocre level in these sorts of things, it's still difficult to truly grasp the experience.
For example the type and tension of the strings on my tennis racket (not to mention the frame, the weight, the balance) were rather critical for my game (at one time...) if they were off a bit it was actually hard to place the ball and if they were a bit loose, difficult to keep the ball in play. Most people might not notice any of this. This is pretty darn subtle stuff. To me it was big like a house.
I think that what KBK said about things standing out in stark relief is spot on... although the entire equation or receipe for a system to do that is non-trivial and not simple, and defies parameterization and straightforward measurements (as of today).
You figure out how it applies to this audio reproduction thing... remember that for most people that Bose Wave Radio is really good!
But rather than devolve into this ABX/DBT/Cable debate, let's talk about something more specific to the Blowtorch and/or perhaps the differential measured vs. sonics of that AD opamp vs. discrete JFET front end, and how that relates to perception & design??
_-_-bear
john curl said:
John, there is at least one thing you excel in – designing SOTA audio gear. In this – I look up to you.
Yes, we are all humans – and as part of the package of being human – age has its marks.
I, for one, am proud for being human. That is, I accept with love everything that the entire package holds, including marks of age.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all.
I love you all.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.